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Miguel Palomares

Jan 7, 2006, 7:37 AM

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Gay life in Mexico

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sfmacaws wrote:

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I also call myself a dyke which some consider an insult.

This quote from Ms. Sfmacaws on another issue poked my little brain stem. About a year ago, I got into a dustup with a couple of gay caballeros, who will remain unnamed, on this forum. As I understood the dustup, they were telling me there is no (or little) discrimination in Mexico against gays.

I found this absurd, and I found myself in the position of "defending" gays while those two gents were saying, as I understood it, that everything was hunky-dory here.

A personal friend in Morelia has been all but tossed out of his family for being gay. Having way too many Mexican relatives, I hear the comments they make about gays. Not really excessively mean comments, but they definitely do not consider gays normal people. I imagine if they had to hire somebody for a job, the gay folk might as well not apply.

So, viewing these things up close and personal, I found it bizarre that these two Gringo expats were seeing it otherwise. I doubt many folks here saw the exchange because it was on the now-defunct San Miguel forum, and the former moderator over there deleted the whole shebang after about 30 minutes. I think she had been out strolling the Jardin or it would have been deleted sooner.

I know there are other gay folk here. Whose side are you on? Mexico is gay-friendly or not? I can tell you that it most decidedly is not, but that is not to say you cannot move here and get along just dandy. You can.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

bournemouth

Jan 7, 2006, 8:15 AM

Post #2 of 36 (3045 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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I think it's time you laid to rest your anger with the former San Miguel forum and got on with life as it now is on the fora. You constantly scratch at the sore and keep it alive - a waste of time and emotional energy. It's a new year, let's have a new attitude.

Miguel Palomares

Jan 7, 2006, 8:49 AM

Post #3 of 36 (3025 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Gay life in Mexico

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No, actually, I think it is an interesting topic. I was quite amazed at the response from the two fellows in question.

Scratching at the former moderator (briefly) was just a little sidetrip, which I always find enjoyable. Now, please put your ill will aside, and respond to the question.

Or not.

If you inhale very deeply, hold it, and then let it out slowly . . . you will feel better.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

(This post was edited by Miguel Palomares on Jan 7, 2006, 9:00 AM)

Esteban

Jan 7, 2006, 9:24 AM

Post #4 of 36 (3002 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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This is another generalization. It all depends on where you are. Just like in the US, if you are near Bob Jones university you'll get a different response than if you are near the University of San Francisco. Both are extremes and within those boundries you'll find every belief, dogma, prejudice and special circumstance imaginable.

Here in Mazatlan, they have a beauty contest for the "queens". Most families support their candidate. I have seen the general public yell little benign remarks at the very effeminate and have heard some very strong derogatory remarks. Mostly it's not an issue and gays survive with less hatred than north of the border...generally speaking.

Besides, in Mexico, it's the catcher who is gay, not the pitcher so this sheds an even more complicated light on the subject and the culture.

Bubba

Jan 7, 2006, 9:28 AM

Post #5 of 36 (2998 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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It seems to me that it is Bournemouth who needs to concentrate on anger management. I read nothing in Palomares post that even remotely exhibited anger. How could one take offense at what appears to me to be an honest inquiry. Even though I have lived here for several years, I am unfamiliar with attitudes in general in Mexican culture towards a person's sexual orientation and so cannot participate intellegently in this discussion. If there is a negative attitude toward gay people, I have never seen that attitude manifest itself in public but then why would I? I would hope that anyone else responding to Palomares' posting would stick to the subject rather than engage in vituperative rejoinder.

I can tell you this If anyone has a bad attitude toward balding, fat, poorly dressed, gringo (excuse me - foreign) residents of the much maligned village of Ajijic, it is not Mexicans (at least openly) but other gringos (uh, extranjeros) living in such smug if self-concious places as San Miguel de Allende where foreign residents feel it necessary to carry their own locally purchased knit bags to the tianguis so, in their minds at least, people will know they are not foreign tourists. I'll bet I know what the Mexicans think of these dabblers who need to attach themselves to a town for false status.

God help us all. .

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 7, 2006, 9:30 AM)

Chumley

Jan 7, 2006, 9:35 AM

Post #6 of 36 (2991 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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As one of the two gay people you continue to refer to, I repeat that, for the most part, gay people (and here I am referring to gay gringos) do not suffer discrimination in Mexico, especially from Mexicans themselves. There is a Mexican family of fifteen people, three generations, living in the house next to mine and my partner. They have embraced us as neighbors and friends, invited us to their family events, and exchanged gifts and food with us. The same is true with all the other Mexicans on our street and neighborhood. In San Miguel, with a very sizeable gay and lesbian community (the distinction is important) the amount of discrimination by either gringos or Mexicans is miniscule. So, unless you have some hidden agenda to try and troll this subject for the purpose of self-amusement, I suggest, as has someone else, to let it lie and move on. Life is too short and beautiful to dwell on what ugliness does exist.

gpk

Jan 7, 2006, 9:38 AM

Post #7 of 36 (2985 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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Mexico is gay friendly to gay foreigners--Mexicans really don't care what we do. But, I know many gay Mexicans who will not/cannot tell their famil1es. I know many gay Mexicans who continue to live at home--even into their 40s or 50s because they cannot bring themselves to form a gay relationship and they believe it is their duty to care for their aging parents. I also know many gay Mexicans who have long-term relationships and no family problems, but the solo gay life seems more prevalent. Just as in the US and elsewhere those that are more "obvious", whether by choice or not, live openly and survive. Gay bashing is pretty rare here (not many Matthew Shepard-type stories, thank goodness), but it is true, anti-gay comments/jokes are fairly common. Gay characters on TV shows are almost always objects of ridicule (but for some reason I laugh anyway). Location makes a big difference, too. The beaches and big cities are easy places for everyone to live--the small towns/country areas not so much. Here in Irapuato every gay person I know is unable to leave for financial/education/or family reasons. Those that are able move to Leon or Guadalajara, known here as the "queen city".

Chumley

Jan 7, 2006, 9:40 AM

Post #8 of 36 (2987 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Gay life in Mexico

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And as for your lack of knowledge about gay life, it also extends to your knowledge of San Miguel and I will repeat what I said elsewhere regarding this great little town: Criticism of San Miguel is most welcomed if it has basis in fact. What is objected to is someone who cavils. For those who do not know the word, it means: to find fault or complain querulously or unreasonably. To be niggling in criticism; to carp. So stop carping about San Miguel, please.

sfmacaws

Jan 7, 2006, 9:48 AM

Post #9 of 36 (2976 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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Jeez Palomares, I think you are like the person who proclaims over and over that they have lots of friends who are gay. I'll bite though, since no one else has.

What I think the attitude in Mexico is could more rightly be called indifference. In the US, the born again freaks have elevated the discourse to a major war and it is difficult for anyone to be neutral or indifferent to the issue. Here in Mexico, most people really don't give a sh*t as long as it doesn't personally effect them. Ok, so your 'friend' has been drummed out of his family, perhaps the pressure on him to conform is huge but I doubt that the family will really turn their back on him. They would prefer that he marry, have children and conform and that is the solution that many Mexican's take. It doesn't change their sexual orientation but it makes the family happy, keeps the birthrate up and since every Mexican man is expected to have a casa chica of some sort, no one is looking to see who lives there.

Recently in a small village outside of Chetumal, some friends were invited to a xmas eve fiesta. While sitting in the plaza with the entire population present our friend noticed a very effeminate man and asked her hostess if it was a man or a woman. The hostess replied that it was a man, but not really. When asked if he had problems because of it, she replied 'Oh no, he is from here, we all love him'.

There is also Juan Gabriel, a singer beloved by all Mexicans who is as big a queen as Little Richard ever hoped to be.

Another point to think about, Sr Palomares, now that you are Mexican. In this country, it is not both parties to a sexual act that are considered to be gay. Only the 'catcher' is defined as such and many a macho straight mexican man will 'pitch' when the opportunity arises.

The situation for gay women is different in many ways and, as is true of everything else here, it is more difficult. I have seen quite a few gay women in villages across the Republic and talked to a few of them. In general, the same attitude continues in that they are loved by their families and by their village but life is still not easy. They are used as the perennial maiden aunt who does a lot of babysitting and who stays home and takes care of the padres. They are sometimes pressured to marry but the ones I've seen are very, very butch and dress and act like a man so that question probably doesn't come up much. I know one in QRoo who moved to the coast, to Akumal, to get work. She hangs out in the 'concha' where the guys all hang after work, shoots hoops, drinks beer and seems to deal with the BS and teasing thrown around. No other girls/women will go to that part of the concha in the evenings, the men there are too rude. A couple years ago she had a gorgeous young woman living with her. She told me she had stolen her from her village and that she was hiding from her brothers. This is a pretty common way for the local mayans to marry, they steal the girl and hide from the brothers until it is too late. I asked if she still had her girl when we arrived this year and someone said that she had gone back home but there was another one here now. Not bad.

Of course, as in most of the world, there are many more gay women than is easily seen by looking at them. They are as invisible here in Mexico as in most places. Same for most gay men, without visual clues and without a camera in their bedroom, you won't know. I don't see the witch hunts and constant denouncements here in Mexico that I do in the US.

Traveling around as 2 women we often get questions from locals about not having a man with us. If it is women asking, I tell them I do have a man and introduce them to my dog "hombre". They always laugh. I then tell them that we only call him 'Bray' in Mexico because the men get so uptight about a dog with no huevos named hombre. They laugh even harder at that. They understand who we are but it is not important and it is not a problem.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

bournemouth

Jan 7, 2006, 9:52 AM

Post #10 of 36 (2968 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Gay life in Mexico

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I was not referring to Palomares question about gay life in Mexico, but his constant snide remarks about the former San Miguel forum and its moderator. He never loses an opportunity to have a dig and it has become very old - as I said, it's a new year and time for a new atitude.

sfmacaws

Jan 7, 2006, 9:53 AM

Post #11 of 36 (2966 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Gay life in Mexico

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Wow! I type slower than I thought. I started answering as there were no responses, I post it and there are a dozen.

I found it funny that Esteban and I both used the old pitcher/catcher euphemism. A friend of mine used to say "it doesn't matter if you pitch or catch as long as you get to suit up".

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Gringal

Jan 7, 2006, 10:21 AM

Post #12 of 36 (2944 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Gay life in Mexico

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Reading Bournemouth's post, it sounded like the issue she was addressing was Miguel's unwillingness to quit sniping re the former moderator on the SMA forum. I agree with her that it's time to let that matter become history.

Speaking of anger management, why the screed about San Miguel? You got a problem there? Do you hear us SMA'ers ranting about hidebound, prematurely mummified denizens of the Lake? Maybe that's because we're bright enough to realize that would be an unfair stereotyping of the population.

I love my big pink plaid plastic bolsa. Holds more stuff than those chichi handwoven jobs. I do draw the line at the ones with the sequined Frida Kahlo decoration.

Miguel Palomares

Jan 7, 2006, 10:26 AM

Post #13 of 36 (2940 views)

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Re: [gpk] Gay life in Mexico

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Mexico is gay friendly to gay foreigners--Mexicans really don't care what we do.

Aha! I think we have hit on something here. It has long been my contention that the "friendly Mexican" is a total myth. People move or visit here, see the big grins and helpful attitudes, and think: Boy, what friendly folks.

When in fact, the locals are simply reacting to a strange phenomenon, you. You tickle their funny bones, Gringos.

They treat other Mexicans quite differently.

Obviously, they deposit gay Gringos in the same category, something foreign and amusing. I do not see that they view their gay paisanos in the same forgiving light.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

Miguel Palomares

Jan 7, 2006, 10:28 AM

Post #14 of 36 (2938 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Gay life in Mexico

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Reading Bournemouth's post, it sounded like the issue she was addressing was Miguel's unwillingness to quit sniping re the former moderator on the SMA forum.

You are totally correct. I gotta get a grip on myself. I will start right now. I promise.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

Bubba

Jan 7, 2006, 10:33 AM

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Re: [Chumley] Gay life in Mexico

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Chumley:

Just for the record, I didn't say I was not knowledgeble about "gay life" (whatever that is - perhaps you can define gay life for the rest of us), I said I was not knowledgable about Mexican attitudes toward a person's sexual orientation. That is an entirely different point. It appears that both you and Bournemouth are so defensive that you read what you wish to see rather than what is written. Further, I was not criticizing San Miguel which is a very nice city. I was criticizing the sort of shallow diletante who thinks a physical place confers status on the pretender who simply associates him or her self with that place. San Miguel seems to have attracted an abundance of those types of folks although I certainly do not think you among them based on your posting history.

Now, perhaps we can return to the subject of this thread as initated by Palomares. By the way - that does not infer that I agree with him in any sense.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 7, 2006, 11:16 AM)

Miguel Palomares

Jan 7, 2006, 10:42 AM

Post #16 of 36 (2925 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Gay life in Mexico

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Jeez Palomares, I think you are like the person who proclaims over and over that they have lots of friends who are gay.

Actually, I have only one gay friend, the Mexican. I thought I had two, but Chumley there in SMA abandoned me over the Velveeta issue. It is a long and sad tale.

I have no black friends at all anymore. I have lots of moreno relatives.

However, a full 50 percent (count them: half) of my surviving Gringo family is gay. Thus, my interest in this issue.

I liked your Little Richard reference. I cannot help but name drop. Back when I was a newspaper guy, I once interviewed Little Richard in a hotel in New Orleans. I liked him, but he would not let the photographer in the door because his hair was in curlers. Really.

I had never heard the pitcher-catcher phrase. I understood after a moment of careful consideration.

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I have seen quite a few gay women in villages across the Republic.

This does not surprise me in the slightest. Looking at the behavior of most (yes, most) Mexican men, were I a woman I would go gay too.

ps. Your post was good.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

(This post was edited by Miguel Palomares on Jan 7, 2006, 10:46 AM)

Bubba

Jan 7, 2006, 11:05 AM

Post #17 of 36 (2911 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Gay life in Mexico

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Gringal:

Why would you hesitate to call the retired denizens of Ajijic "...hidebound prematurely mummified (goobers)...." when that's precisely what many of us are and there is nothing unfair about it. Actually, I don't live in Ajijic. My house just happens to be in Ajijic. Most of my friends here are of the canine persuasion and they have to like me if they want to eat.

Was Palomares aiming personal barbs at Carol? If so, I missed it. Oh well, one of us should read more attentively.

We also carry our colorful plastic reusable bolsa to the tianguis, although being reverse snobs, we now go to the tianguis in Jocotepec rather than Ajijic so we can be more authentic in our own minds. We also save a lot of money so it's working out on several fronts.

I enjoyed Jonna's post which was in keeping with the subject. Jonna is a very level headed person for a right wing fascist Republican.

I was talking to a good Mexican friend about local attitudes toward gay people and she informed me that, while it is not untypical in the culture for many to deride homosexuality at least in an innocuous sort of fashion, it would be considered to be very bad form to confront people in a hostile fashion regarding their sexual orientation unless that person were being sexually aggressive toward them. Direct and confrontational abuse of others because of differing personal characteristics of any kind is decidely un-Mexican it seems to me but behind closed doors among others of like mind, anything goes.

U.S. society is, in general, less tolerant that Mexico in many areas but not in swilling beer on the beach.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 7, 2006, 11:20 AM)

Marlene

Jan 7, 2006, 12:05 PM

Post #18 of 36 (2886 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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When in fact, the locals are simply reacting to a strange phenomenon, you. You tickle their funny bones, Gringos.

They treat other Mexicans quite differently.

I am not so sure I agree with the reason you mention for it (although there are some pretty amusing characters showing up in Mexico!), but the fact locals do get treated differently than foreign tourists, at least in our area, has definitely come to my attention. It mostly has to do with tips and other generosity, in my opinion. It would hijack the thread to elaborate on this further but there are some BIG differences that aren't apparent at first glance or ever, between the cultures.

(This post was edited by Marlene on Jan 7, 2006, 12:07 PM)

bournemouth

Jan 7, 2006, 12:36 PM

Post #19 of 36 (2871 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Gay life in Mexico

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What was written was this:

"I doubt many folks here saw the exchange because it was on the now-defunct San Miguel forum, and the former moderator over there deleted the whole shebang after about 30 minutes. I think she had been out strolling the Jardin or it would have been deleted sooner".

and this:

"Scratching at the former moderator (briefly) was just a little sidetrip, which I always find enjoyable. Now, please put your ill will aside, and respond to the question".

I don't find it defensive in any way to request that the original poster quit small minded sniping at SMA and the former forum moderator. She could have good insight into the original question. However, Mike has agreed that he needs to get a grip on himself and that he will start right now - for which I thank him and wish for his success in that endeavour.

johanson

Jan 7, 2006, 1:00 PM

Post #20 of 36 (2856 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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I want to complain. This is just one subject and Miguel Palomares gets 19 posts in only five hours. As moderator of the Technical forum, I am lucky to get many posts in the whole forum in not 5 hours but 168 hours, or one week.

Please post something controversial to my Tech Forum. I've never even had to delete a post in the three years I have been moderator. Smile

Only kidding

jennifer rose

Jan 7, 2006, 1:00 PM

Post #21 of 36 (2858 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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I’d be hard to put to characterize Mexican attitudes towards gays as “indifferent.” Tourists, foreigners living here, those in the arts and entertainment world, and the hospitality industry, are in a different class entirely, one in which they’re granted more freedom to do as they please. No one would give it a passing thought if they were Jewish, Buddhist, or wore horns on their heads. Simply put, there is a double standard.

What’s acceptable in Puerto Vallarta, San Miguel de Allende or Contreras doesn’t always fly in mainstream, Main Street Mexico. What’s allowable for foreigners and those in the categories I’ve mentioned above (let’s add hairdressers to the list), isn’t within the pale for some Mexican who just wants to practice certified public accounting and lead just a regular lifestyle.

The worst epithet that can be thrown at anyone in the Mexican political arena is to call a politician’s sexual orientation into question. Call them snollygosters, gluttons at the public trough, even a threat to national security, but if you call them “gay,” whether true or not, you’ve thrown out fighting words. One candidate for diputado in my city was tagged “gay” by his opponent, just because he was divorced – and he had to be among the most heterosexual men who’s ever walked the face of the planet!

A few years ago, I had dinner at the home of Mexican friends, educativa, polite, responsible and well-regarded folks, thoroughly decent and good people. The husband asked me what I thought about gays. As I told him I really didn’t give their orientations a lot of thought, he insisted it was a disease. And he went on to tell me how a childhood friend “decided to be gay,” only to receive a severe beating from his father, and how that was the best thing that ever happened to him, because the friend was now a respected professional, married with children.

There is a certain schizophrenia about homosexuals in Mexico. While even a city like mine has gay bars and even rumors of a gay Mafia running certain government enterprises, it’s not nearly as liberal as Juchitan. Look at the fracas over in Cabo San Lucas this week over two Mexican men caught kissing at the Hotel Intercontinental’s pool. Yet there seem to be a number of homosexuals who are married to those of the opposite sex, at least in my town. People “know,” and they just don’t say anything.

I’m not gay, but I wouldn’t characterize Mexico at large as “gay-friendly.”

Marlene

Jan 7, 2006, 1:46 PM

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Re: [jennifer rose] Gay life in Mexico

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Look at the fracas over in Cabo San Lucas this week over two Mexican men caught kissing at the Hotel Intercontinental’s pool.

http://www.planetout.com/...nt.html?2006/01/06/4

ncferret

Jan 7, 2006, 2:52 PM

Post #23 of 36 (2819 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Gay life in Mexico

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Very interesting comments Jennifer. I would venture to say that you could make the same comments about the US.

Anonimo

Jan 7, 2006, 2:59 PM

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Gay life in Mexico

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Miguel is provocative in his posts, but I find it refreshing. I mean, really—how many fluff threads can one take about mayonnaise with or without limón, or where to buy a favorite brand of hot dog?

Saludos,
Anonimo

sfmacaws

Jan 7, 2006, 3:44 PM

Post #25 of 36 (2786 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Gay life in Mexico

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I think that Jennifer is correct but as in many things Mexican a lot has to do with class and location. I still think that by and large mexicans do not care whether someone else is gay, as long as they are discreet. Politics is another story, the scandals about politicians seem to be the better part of most newspapers.

The examples I gave were all of people from the poorer classes. Life is tough there and there is a greater view that God delivers all these trials and tribulations and, what can you do? I'm sure many a mother has lit many a candle praying for her son to 'straighten up' so to speak.

As Jennifer mentioned and Marlene earlier, there is definitely what I call the 'gringa pass', I'm allowed a lot more leeway in dress and behavior because I am not Mexican. We just don't count or we are so weird to begin with that a little more weirdness is expected. Right away it would be almost unheard of for 2 Mexican women to travel without a man, even in some places to go downtown to the stores. I remember it drove me nuts many years ago when I was staying with a friend's family in Veracruz and I had to have a nephew or little brother accompany me every time I went to the store. I mean, come on! How is this 10 yo kid going to protect me?

I love my gringa pass since without it I probably wouldn't spend any time at all in Mexico. It's too restrictive for women if I had to follow all the local rules. I am not interested in living within rules that were common in the US at the beginning of the last century. Not everything in Mexico is better and frankly the roles of women here are getting better but they have a very long ways to go to be what I consider liveable.

So, the gringa pass and the fact that by and large Mexicans are too polite to tell you what they think of your behavior means I can be here happily. I think the same thing applies to the gay issue, the upper and middle classes don't like it and see it as perhaps a disease or at least a social stigma but they don't go accosting people on the street about it. It's one of those things that is hidden and argued about within the family and among very close friends.

I do have an acquaintence that is from one of the wealthiest families in Guadalajara. She is gay and lives with her South American girlfriend. She lives in Cancun however and I think there may be a reason she is not in Guadalajara. I will ask her if the time seems good the next time I see her. She is not separated from her family, I know that because she discusses their visits and business that they are in together. I wonder though if she is not more comfortable in another city.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

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