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sfmacaws

Jan 5, 2006, 9:11 AM

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Gringos and Euros and Canucks, oh boy

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I was writting something when the other thread got locked and I still want to say it so I'm adding another thread. I wanted to clarify my previous comment on this thread http://mexconnected.com/...;;page=unread#unread
I have no problem with being called a gringa, I am one. My problem is with others who get so insulted and maintain they aren't one. It's just not that big a deal.

What I was referring to is the fact that most europeans do NOT see themselves as gringos and most Canadians do not as well. The problem comes when the local population understandably lumps us all together and the euros get insulted. It seems to me that the more often this happens, the madder they get and they get this chip on their shoulder that they take out on us, the true gringos.

As to who is a real gringo, I think it most commonly means an english speaking caucasian. Of course, the Brits and the Canucks don't agree but that is how I hear it used. It is also very often used for all non spanish speaking caucasians and that may in fact be the more common meaning. This is what ties the french and the german speakers knickers in a knot. They need to get over themselves. I've heard the rant way too often about how insulted they are when someone automatically speaks english to them or assumes they are American. Tough patooties! As in the other thread, all people generalize and the Mexicans are no exception. If they think it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a gringo duck.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Papirex

Jan 5, 2006, 10:20 AM

Post #2 of 32 (2737 views)

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There was an interesting article in the now defunct English language newspaper that used to be published in Mexico City, “The News”, about 4 or 5 years ago that traced the origins of the word “Gringo.”

References were found mentioning gringo in Spanish writings dating from the time of the conquest, and later. The word originally referred to “griegos”, or Greeks. It then came to mean any non-Spanish person. I sure do miss “The News”, I was sorry to see it die.

I learned the disparaging meaning of the word when I was in grammar school from some of my Mexican-American classmates. Some of the Mexican-American families have lived in Napa County since the time that California was a Spanish possession, before there was a Mexican Nation.

It still makes my skin crawl when I see people referring to themselves as gringos. I avoid using the word. I lived in Brownsville, Texas in the early 1970s. I was single at the time, and my girl friend and I used to go over to Matamoros, Tamaulipas for dinner a lot. One time we went to our favorite restaurant over there, and when the owner greeted us, my GF said, “Yeah, it’s us two gringos again.”

The restaurant owner was very nice gentleman, a caballero, he just shook his head slowly and said, “Oh no, you two are not that, don’t ever call yourself that.”

I know the meaning of the word is slowly changing, but it will always have a bad connotation for me. Some of my wife’s family members, knowing that I know the true meaning of the word, have asked me not to be mad at them if I hear them referring to Americanos as gringos. They say it is just an easier word for them to use when talking about Americans. Sometimes if you overhear Mexicans talking about Americans they don’t like, you can tell by the tone of their voice, etc. that the word often still has bad connotations.

No Mexican has ever called me a gringo.

Rex, not a gringo, but an American

"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

sfmacaws

Jan 5, 2006, 10:57 AM

Post #3 of 32 (2715 views)

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I think you are right Rex, I don't recall ever being called a gringa personally by a mexican. I've mostly heard them use it anonymously if at all. However, I have no doubt they use it frequently when we are out of earshot. I use it as it is a simple way to refer to other english speakers and mainly hear it used by other gringos. I use it about myself occasionally as well, I also call myself a dyke which some consider an insult. It's just words and they have the impact that you allow them to have. I couldn't care less, in my pre-retirement job I was called a lot of names and quickly learned that it is irrelevent and usually the last resort of the powerless.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

hatchertom

Jan 5, 2006, 11:24 AM

Post #4 of 32 (2706 views)

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Different people respond to differently to different words. Its all on how you take it and /or oftentimes how its intended. Gay people often refer to themselves as queer or fag and no offense is taken because none is intended. (even in mexico with the term Jota) The same can be said for the N word in the african american community.

Or take a look at Gordo here in mexico it is often used as nick name or discreption with no offense, but try and use fat that way in the US or Canada.... The same can be said for moreno ....

From an interesting article on the term gringo in 1997,

According to the artile
"The word gringo was mentioned in Spanish literature as early as the eighteenth century. In Father Ronan's famous Diccionario, compiled some time before 1750, Terreros y Pando, a Spanish historian states that gringo was a nickname given to foreigners in Malaga and Madrid who spoke Spanish with an accent, and that in Madrid the term had special reference to the Irish. The pertinent passage in the Diccionario reads:
"Gringo in Malaga, what they call foreigners who (have) a certain kind of accent which prevents their speaking Spanish with ease and spontaneity; in Madrid the case is the same, and for some reason, especially with respect to the Irish."

"Another instance of its early use is in Bustamante's 1841 edition of Francisco Javier Alegre's Historia de la Companis de Jesús en la Nueva España, in which he explains that the Spanish soldiers sent to Mexico in 1767 by Charles III were called gringos by the Mexican people."

for the complete article click here http://www.marrder.com/htw/jan97/editorial.htm

nlnic

Jan 5, 2006, 12:44 PM

Post #5 of 32 (2685 views)

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Jonna,
I agree and believe as well, that's it's a word. "Americana" doesn't work since we are all (Mexico, Canada, US, etc) part of the Americas. When we were in Bucerias last month, a Mexican friend was asked in our presence "Who is a gringo?" and he merely replied, "people from the US", not Canadians, not Europeans. I was surprised, since I kinda thought is was anyone who wasn't Mexican. Maybe, different parts feel differently about the use of the word??
As a child, I grew up in the South, (Georgia) was raised by my "white" parents and a "colored" woman who looked after me, (not a nanny). I saw "colored" because at that time, in that place, it was grammatically and non-prejudiced to use the term. I do not use it now, since times and opinions have changed. But then, it was correct, and she, in fact, refered to herself with the same term. I loved her and she loved me. I did not realize at that young age, that color made a person different, because, it certainly did not to me.
Anyway, as far as this gringa is concerned, I don't mind the term, don't think of it as derogatory, just an adjective to describe my origins. If the Canadians and Euros get insulted if they are described as such, perhaps it's just their manner to choose to be insulted. I wonder what they want to be called. Also, unless you have an indepth discussion and find out exactly where the person is from, is the term used for skin color? Then what of the many Mexican nationals we all know who are blond and blue-eyed, or light skinned?

Let them who choose to be insulted by a term be so...I'm not! But, you know me, I'm just a dum gringa!!!!
:):):):)
My 2 centavos,
Nancy
Con mi corazon en Mexico!

esperanza

Jan 5, 2006, 3:25 PM

Post #6 of 32 (2655 views)

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Rex and I agree: 'gringo' is not a term I ever use to describe myself or any other foreigner. 'Foreigner' is the term I choose to use when I'm talking to Mexicans or to other foreigners about foreigners.

'Gringo' is a term of disparagement, not a neutral term, a funny term, or a term of endearment. I have rarely heard a Mexican call a foreigner 'gringo' without prefacing the word with 'p**che'.

Mexican friends have often asked me why foreigners call themselves by such an ugly term. I've truly never figured it out, but surely it must be out of ignorance. I find it chocante when foreigners refer to themselves as 'gringos'.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

(This post was edited by esperanza on Jan 5, 2006, 4:02 PM)

Gringal

Jan 5, 2006, 3:40 PM

Post #7 of 32 (2646 views)

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"Mexican friends have often asked me why foreigners call themselves by such an ugly term. I've truly never figured it out, but surely it must be out of ignorance."

Since "Gringal" is my forum handle, I feel compelled to chime in. I know perfectly well how most Mexican nationals refer to us pale expats. At the same time, I think we should not take ourselves too seriously, or take offence too easily. As individuals, we probably get the amount of respect we deserve from our Mexican neighbors.

(This post was edited by Gringal on Jan 5, 2006, 3:45 PM)

Bubba

Jan 5, 2006, 5:18 PM

Post #8 of 32 (2620 views)

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I agree with Esperanza 100%. Gringo is a term of disparagement. I would go further, however. It is racist and jingoistic and even dangerous to civil order when times are bad. I made this observation to my Spanish teacher this afternoon and she disageed suggesting the word never carried negative connotations unless delivered with a negative intonation.

I asked her if I should be offended by the Mexican who called me the equivalent of an idiot gringo (in Spanish, of course, presuming I would not understand him as he had stereotyped me as a typical gringo imbecile intruding upon his environment who could not be bothered to try to understand his language) a couple of weeks ago when I inadvertently nearly backed over him in a parking lot because he was in my blind spot. I indicated to my teacher that his simply calling me an idiot would have sufficed so, if "gringo" carried no negative connotations it was superfluous to the idea being communicated and thus had no place in the insult except as a racist jeer. This begs the question: Is an idiot gringo worse than an idiot? Perhaps not since, if you really think about it and are honest with yourself, all gringos are idiots so, perhaps, gringo alone would have delivered the message.

When she asked me how she and her countrymen should refer to people from foreign lands, I suggested extranjeros which, if used civily, carries no pejorative connotations.

I grew up in an openly, even proudly racist and insular society where the term "yankee" was often used to describe those from areas of the United States outside of the south. The word could be construed to be an insult or a term of endearment .based upon the context in which the word was used but it was always an exclusionary word meant to describe the recipient as an outsider and, thus, the first to be burned at the stake when the famine gods needed appeasement and hunger clouded the collective community judgment.

These exclusionary words should always be avoided by thoughtful people no matter the context.

Take it from a fat, redneck, southern, hayseed, dumbshit white boy.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 5, 2006, 9:07 PM)

Papirex

Jan 5, 2006, 5:32 PM

Post #9 of 32 (2613 views)

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Bubba, next time go ahead and run over the guy.

Another disparaging word down here for Americans was always, Yanqui. I used to delight in telling family members that I was meeting for the first time here that “I am a Yankee” just to see the consternation on their faces.

I knew some guys from Texas when I was in The Air Force. I think they were still PO’ed about The Civil War. For them, Yankee was definitely a bad word, generously applied to the rest of us Yankees.

Rex

"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

julietl

Jan 5, 2006, 5:46 PM

Post #10 of 32 (2605 views)

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I have a friend here from Quebec and she ruffles everytime people assume she is from the US. She doesn't even speak English except for a few words.

I admit I have used the term gringa on myself. I said it once when I confused two terms for, um, buttocks. I didn't remember the nice word, pompes, and nalgas always sounded nasty to me. The other word, c**o sounded better, so I switched them accidentally when talking to my boyfriends aunt. Big mistake here, but no big deal if you say it in Spain.

Upon realizing my mistake I said, "aay - perdoname - soy gringa todavia" and that made them laugh. Normally I don't use the word, but in that instance it seemed appropriate, since I was already being crass.
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sfmacaws

Jan 5, 2006, 5:52 PM

Post #11 of 32 (2600 views)

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Funny! Yanqui or Yank in english is a word I considered using to replace American or Gringo. That is a word that absolutely only means someone from the US, although some in the south don't consider themselves part of the US but still part of the Confederacy.

I'll just have to agree to disagree with two of my favorites, Bubba and Esperanza. I really don't have that kind of reaction to words, I still think it is a residue of my previous training. What someone says is so unimportant compared to how they behave, I give a lot of slack on choice of words. Call me whatever you want, as long as you do what I want you to do we are cool.

Lt. Dyke B*tch (my usual name from people not happy with me in my previous life)

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

hatchertom

Jan 5, 2006, 6:41 PM

Post #12 of 32 (2579 views)

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In looking on the web in some other forums it seems that this debate has been going on for a long time, some of them quite philosophical others pretty funny. It all seem to depend on who you ask.....

It also got me thinking what about other terms like "Pocho" or "Chilango" or even "indigena" ?

Papirex

Jan 5, 2006, 6:54 PM

Post #13 of 32 (2570 views)

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A lot of people don’t think it’s a bad word, but don’t use chilango. It is denigrating and insulting. Using it betrays a lack of education in the Mexican sense. Having ‘education” in the Mexican sense means a lack of breeding, consideration for others, or good manners.

Juniors are the worst for having no education. “Juniors” are the offspring of wealthy people. They generally have no respect and show no consideration for anyone that is not also obviously and blatantly wealthy.

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

sfmacaws

Jan 5, 2006, 7:59 PM

Post #14 of 32 (2553 views)

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Along the lines of "juniors", have you heard of the "hermanitos". The little brothers of the college students that were at UNAM in the 60's, many of whom were killed? It was a demonstration and a repressive 'clean up' by the govt before the Olympics were held in DF in about 1964. Years ago a friend told me who SC Marcos was and said that he was an "hermanito".

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Marlene

Jan 5, 2006, 9:20 PM

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Quote

What I was referring to is the fact that most europeans do NOT see themselves as gringos and most Canadians do not as well.

I am just so excited that someone in Mexico finally spelled "Canuck" correctly!

sfmacaws

Jan 5, 2006, 9:31 PM

Post #16 of 32 (2527 views)

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Whoo eeeee! I feel like this thread is Jonna's spelling test <g>

Thanks Marlene, glad I spelled it right. Now can you tell me the preferred spelling, Canadian vs Canadien. I've seen it both ways.

How else do they spell Canuck? with a K?

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Marlene

Jan 5, 2006, 9:44 PM

Post #17 of 32 (2522 views)

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No, it was the other thread that was your big spelling test. You did pretty good, eh? :-) Canadien is the hockey team! Well actually it is the hockey team for Montreal, but it is the French spelling of Canadian. Here in Mexico they have some fun ways to spell Canuck, and then there is Sr. Palomares way! (The pronunciation is a whole other story). There is Cannuk, Cannuck, Canook, Canuk...let's just say it isn't pretty. And we have famous postage stamps and comic books and stuff named for Johnny Canuck and the other famous super heroes of Canada! Sheesh....we don't get no respect. Doug and Doug of Great White North fame might have had a point!

sfmacaws

Jan 5, 2006, 10:28 PM

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Oops again. I think I've been on here too much tonight, I'm confusing my threads. Thanks for the info on the spelling of Canadian, I always hesitate between an a and e and now I'll remember it.

I've been watching the first night of the new Dancing with the Stars show while posting here. I had to watch to cheer on Jerry Rice, he needed some cheering but all in all I think he did well. Anyway, did any of you see the newscaster (forgot her name) whose father was a professional flamenco dancer? She was great and the pictures of her father were wonderful. and the wrestler? and old, tan George Hamilton out there hoofing it? It was a fun show to watch. I loved that the music for the Cha Cha Cha was Carlos Santana... and Aretha for the waltz.

I'm waltzing the thread away again. Better go.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Papirex

Jan 6, 2006, 4:39 AM

Post #19 of 32 (2495 views)

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The Olympics were held in Mexico City in 1968. The incident you mentioned is called The Tlatleolco massacre. It happened in Tlatleolco Square, which has been re-named The plaza of four cultures. It was a part of what is known as “The dirty war” here, to eliminate government opposition. The dirty war went on into the 1970s. It’s the way politics used to work in Mexico when push came to shove.

It was an attack on unarmed, peacefully demonstrating college students by a police unit known as “The Falcons”. They wore white gloves to distinguish themselves from other police units. The government claimed that the students were armed, and fired on the police first, and that only about 17 students were killed in the incident.

The attack was very well planned in advance. The government even had photographers stationed on rooftops to film it. One of the photographers was on the TV news a year or two ago describing the film he shot, showing the police killing unarmed students. The film has never been seen since he turned it over to his superiors at that time.

The best estimates are that 350 to 450 students were killed. No one will ever know the true figure because most of the bodies, and wounded were removed by government agents and disappeared.

Many of the wounded students were carried to nearby private homes for medical treatment. Some of my wife’s relatives lived in that area, and some wounded students were brought into their homes. They reported that the police broke windows in private homes, to shoot the wounded students inside; they then dragged the bodies away.

We knew 2 of the police murderers in Anchorage, they were brothers. They had run away after the killings, there were people in Mexico that would have killed them if they ever returned. They bragged to us about what a great day that was. My wife told them what kind of men she thought they were as only my wife can do.

One of them died up there a couple of years ago. The world is a slightly better place without him. I always believed that The US Government probably helped them enter The United States. A dispatch from The American Consul in Guadalajara surfaced a few years ago in which The Consul informed The US President that The Mexican government had informed him that “extra legal” measures were going to be used to control government opposition in Mexico.

The Army also raided some high schools at that time. My wife’s brother was a student in one of them. Fortunately, one of their uncles worked at a newspaper at that time. The government had sent agents to work at all newspapers in those days to control the news. The uncle saw a bulletin sent to the government agents at the paper announcing the raids and which high schools were to be raided.

At the risk of his own life, he left the paper and ran to the high school where his nephew was a student to warn the students that the Army was on the way, and they should leave the school immediately. If he had been caught, he surely would have been among the “disappeared.” Needless to say, he is a favorite uncle now.

Yes, Jonna while I have never heard the students referred to as the hermanitos, I do know about that incident, and my wife’s family has intimate knowledge of some parts of it. I think everyone that has lived in Mexico for any time and reads a reputable newspaper knows of it. The now defunct paper “The News” had very good coverage of this story when no other newspaper would touch it. I really miss that paper.

Marcos is an idiot, like all socialists.

Rex

"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

Bloviator

Jan 6, 2006, 5:06 AM

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I'm amazed and horrified by Rex C's posting. I consider myself a fairly well informed person, and in fact have a BA from Berkeley with a major in Latin American history, but had never heard any of what he reports. Thanks a lot for a very poignant account.

What follows is perhaps inappropriate after reading what he wrote and in no way has anything to do with it.

Let me summarize. Gringo/Gringa is/is not a pejorative term. Canadians ard/are not gringos/as. Mexicans do/do not call us gringo/gringa. Evidently Europeans are/are not tarred with the term gringo/gringa andif so hate it. Many hate us anyway, so it really doesn't matter what they think.

It's all very clear to me now. This is making me very very tired.

(This post was edited by dlyman6500 on Jan 6, 2006, 8:18 AM)

Uncle Jack

Jan 6, 2006, 6:29 AM

Post #21 of 32 (2469 views)

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ANY non Spanish-speaking foreigner is a Gringo. How the word is used is paramount.

"Smile when you say that, partner!"
John Wayne

esperanza

Jan 6, 2006, 6:53 AM

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Rex, thank you for posting about these horrendous events. It's impossible to read even the bare-bones story of what happened that night in Tlatleloco without weeping.

For more information, read:

http://www.gwu.edu/...hiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB99/

For a September 2005 update, read this:

http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-9-19/32474.html

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Bubba

Jan 6, 2006, 8:29 AM

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Dlyman:

I presume you took at least one course in logic to get that BA at Berkeley so perhaps you can explain how Europeans are "...not tarred with the term Gringo/Gringa and hate it." while asserting that "Gringo/Gringa (is) not a pejorative term." Hell, my BS degree is from the lowly University of Alabama and I can see the contradictory nature of your posting. It's hard to be "tarred" with a neutral or complimentary label the sole purpose of which is to assign blanket characteristic behavior patterns to the recipient. It seems to me that the word gringo implies a certain disdain on the part of the speaker as in , "Only a bunch of bored and shallow gringos with too much time on their hands would debate endlessly the meaning of our little insult and that fact confirms our assessment of them as feckless armchair warriors filled with self-doubt."

As for Europeans, no doubt many dislike us gringos. My wife is a European and seems to like me most of the time but my mother-in-law thinks, with some merit, that I am a worthless gringo malcontent and never has any use for me whatsoever except when I am complimenting her cooking. .

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jan 6, 2006, 8:33 AM)

esperanza

Jan 6, 2006, 8:41 AM

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I had to read dlyman's post about four times to see that he had his tongue firmly in cheek and that his post expressed the continuing confusion/disagreement/mixups about what and to whom the term 'gringo' can refer.

At least that's what I think he meant.

Dlyman, want to clarify?

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

Papirex

Jan 6, 2006, 8:53 AM

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I think Dlyman explained his thoughts very clearly. Anyone the doesn’t understand what he wrote probably doesn’t understand the complete US tax code Unsure

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo

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