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thriftqueen

Nov 16, 2005, 7:31 PM

Post #26 of 52 (3334 views)

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Re: [julian3345] Money flow

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Just a thought - Back in the 80's my brother in law made the statement, "They will take over the US and never fire a shot". According to a government report after the census the statement was made that by the year 2015 Hispanics would outnumber the Anglos. Think of the political power if they just harness it.


tony


Nov 16, 2005, 8:19 PM

Post #27 of 52 (3326 views)

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Re: [julian3345] SS Money On the dole??

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The Mexicans you are describing - ones that were legally working, had SS card, paid
into the SS system but no had green card? When was this - back at the original brasero program? This hardly can constitute alot of Mexicans and it seems they are legally receiving SS back from when they paid into it. Not my definition of "on the dole". I guess
anymore than the 88 year old widower neighbor who has been receiving SS for 45
years - as long as her working husband has been dead.
You may be confusing straight up legal Mexicans who had all of the
required paper work, including green cards to work in the US and paid into the SS system? The green card system has been around for a long time and Uncle Sam
doesn't pay out easily - he only collects easily ;>) You may be witnessing a pocket
of Mexicans who figured out and legally got thru the system, cuz there ain't many of those. Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."


Don Moore


Nov 16, 2005, 8:21 PM

Post #28 of 52 (3325 views)

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Re: [thriftqueen] Money flow

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The way I see it, we (U.S.A.) conquored the "Indians;" (who knows who they might have conquored, including each other); the Spanish conquored other "Indians;" we defeated the mestizos in Texas and the rest of the Southwest and California; now they are reclaiming -- taking back some of what we took from them -- while we continue to take from them in the form of cheap labor. Who knows who the next conquerors will be. It will likely never end. This, I know, is a rather simplistic summary of a lot of history, but I have to reduce things to simplicity or I can never get a handle on things.
Don Moore


El Príncipe


Nov 16, 2005, 9:27 PM

Post #29 of 52 (3316 views)

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Re: [RexC] Money flow

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Under those circumstances, then, it was a very sensible precaution. Well done.


julian3345

Nov 16, 2005, 10:00 PM

Post #30 of 52 (3311 views)

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Re: [tony] SS Money On the dole??

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As these postings indicate, the rules have changed significantly many times over the years for Mexicans dealing with US immigration and SSA bureaucracy. To tell you the truth, I don't know how they manage to collect anything...it can be very confusing and what happened in the case of Tio Pedro 15 years ago may not apply to Primo José in the present.

My use of "on the dole" was meant to describe folks being supported by mainly their family members who work NOB and send home support money. Aside from dependent young mothers and children left to live here, there are many adults in what we would consider their productive years who have no work, but more than that, no need to create or find any. The responsibility shown by the people who go through the difficult and dangerous process of crossing the border without documents, finding work, living close to the bone and sending significant portions of their earnings to parents and grandparents living in Mexico is impressive. But there is a downside to the dependency that is created.

People who qualify for SSA benefits have paid into the system in their young years to support the retirement of others and are now taking their turn. I wouldn't have a clue how many Mexicans are collecting SSA benefits. I just see the long lines at the post office the days the checks come in. Zacatecas is, and has been for decades, one of the four BIG sending states for NOB workers, so it is logical that there would be more folks collecting Social Security here. By the way, somebody figured out that a person collects in about 3 years every cent that was ever deducted for Social Security...don't know if that is a fact these days with the larger amount of contribution. Joan


julian3345

Nov 16, 2005, 10:19 PM

Post #31 of 52 (3311 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Money flow

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I'm surprised they didn't ask if you had been previously married and if so, to bring your dissolution papers with you. If you were married previously for over 10 years, your former spouse may have a right to some of your benefits depending on her situation when she files. When I filed for SSA benefits about 3 years ago in CA, I had to bring in my dissolution of marriage papers to prove that my ex-husband didn't owe me anything! Good luck! Joan


julian3345

Nov 16, 2005, 11:22 PM

Post #32 of 52 (3308 views)

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Re: [Marta Randall] Thread Spin Off? Re: [dlyman6500] Money flow

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There have been several "guest worker" programs over the years, the "bracero" program is probably the one most people remember and it was in place from 1942-1965. It ended partly as a result of the Civil Rights movement in the US and partly because the labor contractors who managed the workers had become notoriously corrupt.

Subsequently, the Mexican people migrating for work have been part of a de facto guest worker program for reasons pointed out by several other posters...legal loopholes! The I-9 documentation law only requires the employer to verify that a prospective employee can present certain identification documents as part of the hiring process. The employer isn't obliged to worry about the integrity of the documents. Many workers use documents passed around the family, borrowed from friends or purchased from counterfeiters. A full pkg of fake ID Documents costs about $500 in San José, CA Of course, many of the undocumented Mexican workers are paid in cash which gets around the I-9 process for the employer.

It is not unusual for a Mexican migrating to find work in the US these days to be in debt $2500-$3000 on arrival. His/her family or friends NOB will have paid a coyote at least $2000 + fake documents, if needed, and lent first month's living expenses. Most of this money is paid back within a couple of months. It's all about work ethic and family values! Joan


Bear

Nov 17, 2005, 12:31 AM

Post #33 of 52 (3304 views)

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Re: [julian3345] Thread Spin Off? Re: [dlyman6500] Money flow

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Joan,
All info above is very accurate and correct. I have
several "guest worker" friends in California who are
living and working under those conditions.
However, some are not sending money back home,
but beginning a new life in the USA with their savings. Bear


Miguel Palomares


Nov 17, 2005, 5:44 AM

Post #34 of 52 (3289 views)

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Re: [RexC] Money flow

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Thanks for the info. Yes, rules change. I communicated directly with the SS Administration via their website, and was told that my wife was eligible for nada unless she lives in the U.S. a minimum of five years.

I will be going to the Embassy next May to apply for SS, and I will ask again.

My wife is not eligible for a SS number. She is no U.S. citizen nor has she lived or worked there. However, I file tax returns every year, and I filed as married, jointly. The form asks for a SS number for both. For the past two years, I have just written in none for her, which is true. They did not balk at that.

However, I have learned that she must obtain something called a Tax Identification Number, which is not a SS number tho it looks like one, same number of digits. I sent in the application form last April with the tax return. Never heard anything from them, tho the instructions say we would have the number in six weeks. I waited three months and wrote a letter. I still have had no response from them. Too busy focusing on Iraq and New Orleans, I guess.

We will be in Atlanta next week, and I will phone.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/


Miguel Palomares


Nov 17, 2005, 5:48 AM

Post #35 of 52 (3285 views)

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Re: [thriftqueen] Money flow

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Think of the political power if they just harness it.


That is a reassuring thought. Take a look at how they run Mexico.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/


gpk

Nov 17, 2005, 6:02 AM

Post #36 of 52 (3281 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] Money flow

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Unless something has changed, a US citizen can apply from within Mexico and not have to return to the US. I was not aware of the requirement that non-citizens had to spend time in the US--this doesn't sound right to me, and if it is true, I bet it doesn't apply to people from European countries.


julian3345

Nov 17, 2005, 6:39 AM

Post #37 of 52 (3267 views)

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Re: [gpk] Money flow

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There is a woman here in Jerez who is an expert in SSA, Visa, customs and cross border real estate deals. She is qualified to translate documents in English and she was the contact person for customs officials when my menaje de casa was moving across the border. I was in her office one day when a very sad customer was there. It turned out that this client had put off dealing with the 30 day residency requirement for Mexican applicants until the end of her year grace period. I can't tell you if this requirement applies to all applicants, but that's what I was told by this expert. It wouldn't surprise me if the Mexicans eligible for benefits are given "special" status and have to jump through different hoops.

Today at the southern border, the US Border Patrol will stop undocumented people from many countries. Mexicans are processed and for the most part sent back into Mexican territory. The rest of the people, no matter their country of origin, are categorized as OTM (other than Mexican). They are quickly processed, but unless they fit a possible terrorist profile, they are given a court date and released OR (own recognizance). Before the ink is dry, they are gone into the interior of the US and never heard from again. Neither local jurisdictions nor Border Patrol stations have space and personnel to hold large numbers in custody. I don't understand why all the people caught are not returned to Mexico, the last country that allowed them entry....but this is another case where Mexicans have different rules imposed. Joan


julian3345

Nov 17, 2005, 10:03 AM

Post #38 of 52 (3219 views)

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Re: [Bear] Thread Spin Off? Re: [dlyman6500] Money flow

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Yes, indeed. I know several families without legal documents who have bought property..houses and apts. in CA and are really making some solid financial gains for their nuclear families. They may not send much money home but will always respond to emergencies in the extended family. I have also heard of cases where the family members just disappear into a new life al otro lado...and I've seen flyers around town asking for information regarding their whereabouts. Joan


carlw

Nov 17, 2005, 10:20 AM

Post #39 of 52 (3211 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Money flow

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I live in Dallas, where I have become acquainted over the years with many of my Mexican and other Latino neighbors. Some of the older ones have been here a long time and gained legal status in the U.S., with Social Security numbers. They live for the day they have enough quarters in and the correct age to qualify for SSI benefits. Those empty houses and undriven cars Jerezano mentioned have been waiting in Mexico for them. I have spent many an evening eating barbacoa and watching the guys drink beer and talk about their dream of returning to Mexico, free and clear and with a substantial SS income on which to live. THe ones who never married or whose spouses are deceased also have another dream - to marry a young woman to take care of them and maybe have some kids, too (at their ages!). And when they return to that small village, they are surely deemed to be among the wealthy and successful, with a nice almost American type of home (sometimes the biggest and best equipped in town), a fine shiny pick-up, and a regular income upwards of $1,000 a month until they die. Could there be a better life than that, for a man who came from a Mexican village with no paved streets or running water or electricity; who may have finished 6th grade, or not; went to the US and learned a valued skill and stuck it out til retirment? All they have to do is stay in the US and stay alive (a major feat for the men who remain unattached here).

There are also older couples who, when retirement age comes, leave the grown kids here and head back to Mexico. They still have brothers and sisters and even parents still alive there.


sandykayak


Nov 17, 2005, 2:43 PM

Post #40 of 52 (3173 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Money flow

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Miguelito, does that mean your wife can't apply for US citizenship unless she lives in the US for x number of years?

Since both countries now accept dual nationality this might be an option.
Sandy Kramer
Miami, Fla & El Parque


Miguel Palomares


Nov 17, 2005, 3:22 PM

Post #41 of 52 (3169 views)

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Re: [sandykayak] Money flow

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Quote
Miguelito, does that mean your wife can't apply for US citizenship unless she lives in the US for x number of years?


I do not know the details. We do not have any intention of seeking U.S. citizenship for her. I imagine that would be a pain in the kazoo of colossal proportions and hardly in keeping with my relaxed lifestyle. From things I read, being a citizen is not required to get SS benefits. I intend to pursue it further, but what the SS Administration has emailed me is that living in the U.S. a minimum of five years is required.

Perhaps it would be easier to rob a bank. Bonita and Clyde.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/


Bloviator

Nov 17, 2005, 8:05 PM

Post #42 of 52 (3111 views)

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Re: [julian3345] Thread Spin Off? Re: [dlyman6500] Money flow

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About a month ago, we got a phone call telling us that they had found the body of a Mexican (or some other hispanic) in the field below our house in California. Evidently he had been bitten by a rattlesnake and somehow died without getting any help. Next to the fact of the death, the thing that was most upsetting to us was the real possibility that his family would never know what happened to him. Of course his friends probably found out what happened and got word to his family, but perhaps not.

Also, I often think of what it must be like for the families of those who perish in the desert between the border and I10 in Arizona and Southern California when they run out of water and get lost. How often do the families have no idea what happened?

On the other hand, the husband of the woman who cleans our house in California disappeared for a year and just recently came back. He brought enough money to buy a house in $$$$$ SCal. I suspect perhaps some chicanery - or a real entrepranual spirit.


Bubba

Nov 18, 2005, 7:32 AM

Post #43 of 52 (3077 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Money flow

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On the narrow issue of legal status in the U.S. as a social security issue, my wife is neither a U.S. citizen noe does she have resident alien status since that was jerked from her when she moved to Mexico. However, she did work in the U.S. for over 30 years and, is , therefore, eligible for full SS benefits. The social security officer at the Guadalajara consulates said, and I quote precisely, "We don't care if she's a wetback, she gets her benefits if she contributed to the fund."

She looked into gaining back her U.S residency status and later applying for citizenship and, I promise you you do want to go there unless you plan to move back to the U.S. The U.S. INS is the worst bureacracy we have ever dealt with anywhere and we could never face dealing with them.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Nov 18, 2005, 10:53 AM)


bournemouth

Nov 18, 2005, 9:54 AM

Post #44 of 52 (3042 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Money flow

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Strange as it may seem and I agree with you about the INS, getting one's citizenship is one way to make the INS go away from one's life - I realize in Brigitte's case she is in Mexico so is not dealing with them but for others who still live on alien cards, with renewals, fees, registering etc. get your citizenship and forget about the INS. Then you are free to come and go at will, live in Mexico for ever if you so desire, but the door is always open to return NOB if things change drastically.

I speak from experience!


julian3345

Nov 18, 2005, 5:21 PM

Post #45 of 52 (2997 views)

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Re: [dlyman6500] Thread Spin Off? Re: [dlyman6500] Money flow

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Tha Arizona Star actually publishes an ongoing list of Mexicans who have died or been hospitalized in the Arizona desert..if they can be identified...but so many don't carry real ID. I think there are humanitarian groups who work near the border to try to ameliorate some of the hazards of crossing that desert. Joan


Poncho32

Nov 18, 2005, 7:30 PM

Post #46 of 52 (2966 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] Money flow

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Many of you out there may not agree of what I am about to say but here goes any way.
There is a huge problem in the United States today and because of the problem that I will state is( that we as Americans are unable to compete) as a whole it the world economy.
Hence forth it is my belief that our economy in the United States is on a down hill slide.
The reason that jobs are fruitful in the United states for people that want to risk crossing the border is that there there are plenty of jobs available and all types of labor skill trades, high paying jobs , and on and on .
Ask any business in the United States about their problems of hiring people who just want to work.
My wife and family normally cross the border on Mexican highway 15 around January 4-6 each year, you will easily lose track trying to count the cars / trucks/ suv's with Oregon, Washington . Idaho and California plates all filled with Mexicans heading back to work I mean hundreds and hundreds and real nice cars.
I love Mexico and all their people have been here for 36 years and if there was some way to allow the Mexican people to cross in an easier fashion legally, I'd be all for it.
Ask yourselves how many people you know will send a large portion of their pay home each month to help their(family ) survive?
Needless to say I am in favor of world free trade , competition leads to a healthy world.


esperanza

Nov 18, 2005, 7:50 PM

Post #47 of 52 (2959 views)

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Re: [Bud Crest] Money flow

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Three cheers for Bud Crest. Amen, brother.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Bubba

Nov 19, 2005, 5:50 AM

Post #48 of 52 (2935 views)

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Re: [dlyman6500] Thread Spin Off? Re: [dlyman6500] Money flow

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Do not assume that all illegal workers are paid substandard wages in agriculture. We paid our workers legal or not the same rate for the same job. Paying the same wage we could not find legal people to harvest. We got busted by the immigration and had to hire legal people, we advertized gave bonus for people to bring workers but no luck. We had to hire a company to do our harvesting paid more for the same job. The money went into the pocket of a US citizen who had a team of workers (all illegal). Welcome K-Mart and their cleaning people. Because it is not possible to find the amount of people needed to harvest at any price companies have to hire illegals.
Another funny aside: in California the law says that you cannot discriminate and have to hire the most qualified person for the job. You cannot ask if that person is legal but must ask for papers after the person is hired. You have 3 days to check if the SS number and work permit are legal and must give the employee a certain number of days to come up with the right papers after you determine the papers are not legal and then you have to let them go. Just imagine trying to harvest under a dead line and not know if you will have a crew or not. It is a nightmare and this is why the immigration closes their eyes on the illegals in agriculture. The agriculture would go bust in California without illegals.
The wall is not the solution; as long as they are jobs to be filled that US citizens do not want illegals will be there: mexican or others. Money talks.
The immigration people only appear when they receive a complaint and call before showing up. In our case a legal Mexican called because he wanted to harvest rather than drive a tractor.


MariaLund

Nov 19, 2005, 9:10 AM

Post #49 of 52 (2901 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Money flow

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I have been a US resident alien for 23 years now, living and working all across the world during this time and the only "hassle" I ever suffered was when I had to fly to New York from Europe and turn around at the airport and fly right back to finish a contract, which had to be prolonged, due to delays, and I have not anticipated that. After that experience, anytime I had doubts that I would want to return to the USA within a year I sent a letter to the INS - before departure - this is crucial - informing them that I might be away for 2 years.
I much prefer that to getting a US citizenship, because it - coupled with residency in the USA - could have resulted in loosing all the privileges of being a EU country citizen. And, believe me, there are FAR MORE important benefits attached to EU citizenship than they are to the US. And being a US citizen now, when the country's government infuriated - or at least disgusted - most of the world opinion - is right out dangerous, if you travel extensively. So don't be too hasty in changing your citizenship to the US one without counting very carefully what you might gain versus what you might loose.

Birgitta had a misfortune of not knowing the rules when she left the USA for longer than a year and loosing her resident alien status - status that carries certain privileges - and, yes, it might be difficult to regain it. But safeguarding the resident status and changing your citizenship are two different things - whith different benefits and inconveniences.
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

(This post was edited by MariaLund on Nov 19, 2005, 9:16 AM)


Bubba

Nov 19, 2005, 9:52 AM

Post #50 of 52 (2886 views)

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Re: [sandykayak] Money flow

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Sandy you cannot apply for US citizenship if you do not live in the States. You can get SS if you are not a US citizen if you have contributed. I believe you cannot get part of your husband SS if you have not been married for at least 5 years and if you have never lived in the States.
If you have contributed you can get SS no matter what your nationality is.
If you have not contributed nor lived in the States and are not a US citizen you do not have the same rights than a US citizen's spouse. Neither do you have the same tax exempt inheritance rights.
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