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MariaLund

Oct 30, 2005, 7:04 AM

Post #1 of 17 (2313 views)

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Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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I wonder why moderator closed the Grade A thread just when it started to become truly interesting. I admit I was baffled by what Oscar2 really meant by what he wrote, but it hit me when I read Jerezano's statement: "I am a Number 1 American. I would like very much to be a Number 1 Mexican."

Why would anyone aspire to dissolve his/her previous identity into a new identity? Why would anyone want to become more catholic than a pope? It does not matter (to me, anyway) whether or not it is doeable. What matters is "why would someone want to"? "who, and how, could benefit from it"?

May be it is a male thing: an (overblown?) ego that surrounds those human creatures customarily wearing pants... You, ladies out there: has any of you ever labeled yourself as "number 1 american"? And, if you did, would anybody else perceive you as such? Because your identity feeling, your ego, will always be tested with - oh, well, I will not call it reality as to not invite a discussion whether more real is what is external or what's internal - perceptions of others.

It would never occur to me to strive to be #1 anybody other than being #1 ME. Being born Polish-German I could never pass for either being # 1 Pole or #1 German, even if I wanted to (they differ too much... and hate each other too much). Should I want to become just one of them, instead of striving to acquire the best of both cultures (likme being a spontaneous rebel and being highly logical and organized at the same time) and discard the worst (like being too much of a nay-sayer and too deferrent to authorities)???

Then I married a Swede and became a Swedish citizen. And again: should I strive to become #1 Swede? Ridiculous!
I just adapted to life in Sweden, acquired a partially Swedish identity in addition to my previous ones, discarded some elements of previous identity (became a tad less belligerent, a tad more diplomatic, acquired a taste for sophisticated simplicity, for less is more).

A decade passed and I emigrated to the USA. Strive to become #1 American? No way. Adapt, yes, even assimilate, may be even over an otherwise accaptable limit ( for example when American heavy, too ornate and too overloaded with all kinds of knick-knacks decorating style became not only less hideous, but partially acceptable to me, even in my own home, there, I think, I passed the line between desirable adaptation and undesirable assimilation and may be it's time to move somethere else again) , but to dissolve into "americanness"??? And stop being ME? Why???

Being an American (French, Dutch, South-African or Japanese) living in Mexico, adapting to life there, assimilating parts of its culture, yes. Dissolving in it? I'd say no.
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

MariaLund

Oct 30, 2005, 9:53 AM

Post #2 of 17 (2261 views)

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Re: [MariaLund] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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I got an email stating "Gringal has replied to your post" but when I clicked the link I got a message that a post I am trying to access does not exist. Hmm, I wonder why? Did Gringal write something inappropriate (highly unlikely judging from her other posts) and got deleted? Or what gives?
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

Gringal

Oct 30, 2005, 10:16 AM

Post #3 of 17 (2250 views)

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Re: [MariaLund] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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Hi, Maria. I liked your post and started some ruminations of my own about how we expats are sometimes becoming way too introspective about our state of mind in Mexico. A few other random thoughts followed which I decided could start another useless argument (much like the previous thread), so I deleted it. That's all, folks.

TlxcalaClaudia

Nov 1, 2005, 12:25 PM

Post #4 of 17 (2144 views)

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Re: [MariaLund] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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Hi MAriaLund-
Why would anyone aspire to dissolve his/her previous identity into a new identity? Why would anyone want to become more catholic than a pope?

I don't know all the details but I laughed at your comment (cause it was cute) about why try to be more Catholic than the Pope (by the way, I attend a Traditional Latin Mass and see this all the time, so maybe that was why it was cute to me).

You, ladies out there: has any of you ever labeled yourself as "number 1 american"? And, if you did, would anybody else perceive you as such?

Being labeled number 1 isn't a label/character I strive to have/to be. I'd rather be labeled humble. I'm not afraid of being labeled dumb though. I think that is why many shun a humble character...makes one appear weak. Since I didn't read the post you are referring to maybe this isn't what was meant anyhow, but to directly respond to your post I'd have to agree that many women wouldn't go there...but they do exist (a feminist perhaps?) . My crowd of girlfriends don't fit that label; I could befriend others though who do.

CLaudine

MariaLund

Nov 1, 2005, 12:34 PM

Post #5 of 17 (2139 views)

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Re: [TlxclaClaudia] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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Claudia, although I thank you for complementing the cuteness of my remark, humbly I can't take credit for it. Labeling someone as trying to be a better catholic than a pope is a widely popular (at least among Europeans) French proverb.

And, BTW, I pride myself on being feminist ... not a #1 feminist, but feminist nevertheless:equal rights, equal opportunities, equal money for equal work, equal access to power and decisionmaking etc. etc.
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

TlxcalaClaudia

Nov 1, 2005, 1:13 PM

Post #6 of 17 (2124 views)

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Re: [MariaLund] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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It has it's needs, I agree.

Claudine

Gringal

Nov 1, 2005, 1:22 PM

Post #7 of 17 (2114 views)

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Re: [MariaLund] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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It's interesting to note that the term "feminist" is not meant as a compliment in many quarters. That's unfortunate. Every woman who votes or owns property can thank a feminist. The same for every woman who can take home the same paycheck for her work as the man at the next desk. For those women who don't have a man to support them and their offspring, or for those whose man died, abused them or left them, or who weren't cut out by nature to mate with men - there are life opportunities created by feminists. I was never one to be on the barricades of progress, but I honor the efforts of those who were.

Meanwhile, in the Middle East, feminists are hiding under burkas. It probably seems preferable to being stoned. "Dissolution" isn't always a choice, is it?

.

(This post was edited by Gringal on Nov 1, 2005, 1:36 PM)

Miguel Palomares

Nov 1, 2005, 1:49 PM

Post #8 of 17 (2095 views)

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A movement lost

Oh, boy, we have stumbled into my territory here. Let me get in a thing or two before it occurs to the Rose of Morelia that this has little to do with Mexico.

Ni modo. I cannot contain myself. My fingers are trembling over the keyboard.

Feminism started out nobly. Yours truly was a card-carrying member of NOW. Really. Many good and necessary changes were brought about.

Some years later, the "movement" was hijacked by, uh, women who do not care for men. This situation exists up to our present day. And this is what led to the current bad rep of feminism in many circles. Including my circle of one.

We need more of that early form of feminism here in Mexico, in my opinion. I do not see it.

But, it's a beautiful day here in Michoacan. And la Noche de Muertos is upon us here in the Village of the Darned.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

(This post was edited by Miguel Palomares on Nov 1, 2005, 1:49 PM)

jerezano

Nov 1, 2005, 1:53 PM

Post #9 of 17 (2089 views)

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Re: [MariaLund] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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Hello MariaLund,

You are thinking rather narrowly. I want to be BOTH a Number 1 American and a Number 1 Mexican, and I hope that I was a Number 1 Father, and a Number 1 Husband---although apparently not so as my wife divorced me after 25 years.

And I am a Number 1 American because I know so many Americans who are not Number 1, just as I know many Mexicans who are not Number 1 Mexicans, etc.

When we talk about Number 1 we do not mean that we want to be THE superlative example, as perhaps Hitler was THE Number 1 dictator, but just that we want to be in the class known as GOOD, not just OK, not just UUGH! This is not a male thing. How many women do I know who want to be just that a GOOD woman, a good Mother, a good wife, a good lawyer, etc. You, yourself, describe your history as a Polish-German (of the Number 1 category I hope) trying to adapt and approach the Number 1 (good) Swedish wife and mother. I hope that you at least attained a Number 2 (OK) status.

Other than my comment that you are thinking rather narrowly, I find your other thoughts to be what I consider Number 1 American, or even Number 1 Mexican. (a yet to be realized ideal.)

Again dissolving onself and metamorphosing into another being! What a ridiculous idea. MariaLund, I can certainly agree with you. Who in the world, unless a very, very miserable person, would ever want to do that?

I hope you enjoy your life here in Mexico and I wish you well on becoming a Number 1 Mexican if you intend to live the rest of your life here.

Adios. jerezano.
PS: On locking the postings it seems to be a guideline for the moderators to lock any thread that runs into a large number of postings. And if you follow the threads closely it is apparently a good rule. Many of the threads go off base along about the 15th or so posting.j

bournemouth

Nov 1, 2005, 2:54 PM

Post #10 of 17 (2067 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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Maybe we should just try to be No. 1 or "good" people, regardless of ethnicity, gender or cultural backgrounds. I'm a little bothered by this emphasis on "American" or "Mexican" or whatever. Let's just be decent people to the best of our ability and the world will be a better place. We will certainly find our lives in Mexico better.

Blackjack Davie

Nov 1, 2005, 3:21 PM

Post #11 of 17 (2061 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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Oh my goodness...what a great thread, and what better opportunity to point out that nationalism is the enemy of peace. We are members of the world community and it behooves all of us to recognize that and to realize that we are in this stew together. No one issue divides us more than this jingoistic notion that we are number one, thus defining every other citizen of the world as second class citizens.

TlxcalaClaudia

Nov 1, 2005, 4:21 PM

Post #12 of 17 (2031 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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In Reply To

When we talk about Number 1 we do not mean that we want to be THE superlative example, as perhaps Hitler was THE Number 1 dictator, but just that we want to be in the class known as GOOD, not just OK, not just UUGH! This is not a male thing. How many women do I know who want to be just that a GOOD woman, a good Mother, a good wife, a good lawyer, etc.

Yes, I see your point Jerezano. I still haven't read your original post that sparked this listing, but I can't argue wanting to be a "good" something or other. Respectful.

Feminism really did start out with intentions to balance the scales. Rightly so. Opportunities are there now that weren't before, no arguing that. One can't ignore why the name is so negative these days so I myself prefer the term egalitarian because of the bad run-in with feminist groups who really were men-haters. But then that brings on a whole other discussion. Sir Miguel a member of the NOW? Do not be offended that this comes as a surprise to me. I simply don't know who you are and once again my impression of someone was a little off. Interesting.

Claudine

MariaLund

Nov 1, 2005, 4:42 PM

Post #13 of 17 (2026 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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Uff, it looks like I started something and now don't know who to reply to first, before the moderator closes the thread. I choose to reply to jerezano, since I see one reason for controversy here is sheer semantics.
To me #1 or grade A means to be the best - means - overt or covert - competition with others in trying to attain a - clearly or ambiguosly - defined recognized status of something. Being in America I can see how different groups - for their own purposes - try to define how one is supposed to behave and what one is supposed to believe in in order to be allowed to label himself or herself an American. You can observe the same phenomenon in Japan (although in much subtler, much less "in your face" form), you can see it in Poland (particularly among conservatives) and it is highly likely that it exists in Mexico as well. Whether or not that kind of thinking is "narrow" or not, to me, as I understand trying to be #1 something or somebody is SUCCUMBING TO A PRESURE TO CONFORM. There is a societal model (or several societal models) of what is - or is not - a "#1" Mexican, American, mother, father, husband, wife.

I am a born rebel and a born nonconformist (though neither #1 rebel or #1 nonconformist) and - although I can conform, when I agree with something, I do hate the EXPECTATION to conform, which for me is inherent in those labels.
And no, I have not always been a number # 1 wife or mother, a # 1 dissident, a #1 anticommunist or a #1 feminist - neither according to anybody elses definition of those terms... or my own. We are not always our best, and even what we consider as "best" today may change tomorrow as we either grow or decline, or simply as we change our opinions our point of view. Thus to me to try to overly conform is plain wrong, because you are negating part of your individuality. Also to try to force others to conform by labeling them this or that is - at least - not fair.

I do not want to be #1 "anything" if it means that someone else - in comparison - would either have to be #2 - because he or she differs - slightly or a lot - from me... or feel excluded, ostracized etc. etc. because he/she does not perceive being "anything" in the same way I do. What is a GOOD or very good wife, mother, rebel, dissident, professor, consultantl etc etc to you may not necessarily be to me and I will neither impose my standards on anybody claiming them to be the norm to strive for, or let anybody impose their norms on me...like a good #1 rebel should ;-))
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

(This post was edited by MariaLund on Nov 1, 2005, 5:01 PM)

MariaLund

Nov 1, 2005, 4:55 PM

Post #14 of 17 (2021 views)

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Re: [Miguel Palomares] A movement lost

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I had a feeling, Miguelito that you would react to the sheer appearance of the word "feminism" ... a Pawlow response ;-)
If you wish, however, you might explain a bit more clearly of just what you mean by "women who do not care for men". Do not care in the sense of do not like them (as species) or in the sense do not want to be subordinated to men or in the sense of do not consider it their duty to serve men????

I am a feminist and I do like men, some men more than others, some for their intellectuall prowess, some for their bravery, some for their sensitivity and compassion, some for their adventurous spirits and some for their... oh well, what to call it and still remain politically correct... hunkiness? Do I care for men? Well, I care for some more than for the other, I care for some in different ways than I care for the others.

Enough words. :-) I think it is clear by now that I consider a statement "women who do not care for men" to be - objectively - a sheer nonsense and subjectively as a likely mask for some deep psychological wound blaimed on the entire gender rather than on one particular perpetrator.
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

(This post was edited by MariaLund on Nov 1, 2005, 4:58 PM)

MariaLund

Nov 1, 2005, 5:21 PM

Post #15 of 17 (2007 views)

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Re: [Blackjack Davie] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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Bornemouth, Blackjack Davie, I wholeheartedly agree. Claudia, I do not agree, I am afraid that you let yourself be deceived by antifeminist propaganda. Because, who, actually, is a "men hater"? Someone who fights for rights of women at the expense of the rights that men enjoy? If women are equal, men lose their superiority, their right to dominate and exploit women. Is it " men hating" to try to change the inequality, to reverse the wrong perpetrated on women?

In Sweden we won the right to have some of parental obligations split more equally between men and women. In a country where fully paid maternity leave was 9 months, it became a serious obstacle to hiring young married women, until we influenced the legislature to make it a parental leave. Now men have to take half of a former maternity leave, or it will be lost. So a young married man and a young married woman are an equal "danger" of becoming parents to employees. Is this manhating? To force men to share parental responsibility equally (or pay for it from their own pockets) and not ruin women's job and career prospects by too long absence from the work force?

I do not blame men for crying wolf - I too, would rather sit behind a desk and do something "important" than stay at home and change diapers. Well, actually, I was a very progressive " man non-hater" lol - I hired a nanny so that both me and my hubby could continue do the jobs we loved, while someone else did the "dirty" work at home.

There are no man haters - there are only freedom fighters for equal rights and equal opportunities.
Vivere non est necesse, navigare necesse est!

(This post was edited by MariaLund on Nov 1, 2005, 6:49 PM)

TlxcalaClaudia

Nov 1, 2005, 6:47 PM

Post #16 of 17 (1977 views)

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Re: [MariaLund] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

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There are no man haters - there are only freedom fighters for equal rights and equal opportunities.

Actually...if you read my post again, you will see where I referenced equality. As for "no man-haters"...that was your expereince. Mine was very different and turned me off.

What? This board hasn't been locked yet? How did we get this far without the padlock? lol

Claudine

jennifer rose

Nov 1, 2005, 7:05 PM

Post #17 of 17 (1965 views)

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Re: [TlxcalaClaudia] Adaptation, assimilation or dissolution?

You're straying again from the original post, and the thread's no longer dealing with Mexico. Hence, the lock.