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sfmacaws


Jun 29, 2005, 2:51 PM

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Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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http://www.sfgate.com/...ional/i141146D78.DTL


I find that old argument that it is 'part of the culture' is almost always a side step. I am amused though that those who are so strident in their criticism of the US rarely speak up about these things in Mexico.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán





tony


Jun 29, 2005, 4:12 PM

Post #2 of 36 (2661 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Hello,
One should keep in mind that blacks did not have the same treatment
in Mexico as in the US. A black stereotype in the US does not mean the
same in Mexico or Ethiopia for that matter. It is interesting to see the
US try to reprimand other countries assuming that country's behavior was
as bad as the US. Tony

PS I still tell the story of arguing with a (black) Jamaican guard when he wouldn't
let my black Jamaican friend into a resort saying "by boss says no Jamaicans
allowed!" The boss was a black Jamaican. Boy did I get my politically correct
butt handed to me!

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."


Bubba

Jun 29, 2005, 5:39 PM

Post #3 of 36 (2630 views)

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Re: [tony] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Tony:

Please don't stop there. Why don't you give us a brief history of Africans in Mexico brought here as slaves and later forced to flee to isolated enclaves on the Pacific Coast among other places to escape persecution? Mexico, with its dreadful and genocidal persecution of Africans and indigenous people over the centuries and today; with its "Steppin' Fetchit" depiction of African-Mexicans on official stamps and the popular notion among other ethnic Mexicans of indigenous peoples as "Indios coming down from the mountain with their drums to sell their simple wares", has no elevated status over the U.S. when it comes to racism and "ethnic cleansing". We are all in this together and ignorance is no excuse for any of us in producing insulting likenesses of our fellow human beings we stupidly hold in low regard because of their ethnic differences.


Blackjack Davie

Jun 29, 2005, 6:08 PM

Post #4 of 36 (2615 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Saludos todos...I have a friend in Lahore, Pakistan (I met him in Beckley,
W.Va) who says that "humanity has no borders." Alas, it is true that racism enjoys those same open borders. Bubba, you are so right. David


jennifer rose

Jun 29, 2005, 6:41 PM

Post #5 of 36 (2604 views)

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Blacks in Mexico

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See http://www.mexconnected.com/mex_/feature/ethnic/bv/vaughnindex.html and http://www.mexconnected.com/mex_/feature/ethnic/bv/spec0303.html


tony


Jun 29, 2005, 10:51 PM

Post #6 of 36 (2559 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Bubba,
Spoken like a true guilt ridden yet superior American. Are Mexicans
of African decent treated the way Blacks are in the US - NO! Were they
not allowed to vote until the 1950's and beyond - NO! Were the indians
of Mexico virtually wiped out like they were in the US - NO! Were they castrated
from their culture like in the US - NO! Maybe you haven't noticed it but
there are millions of Indians in Mexico that life tradition lives - and it is
encouraged up to a point in Mexico! That sounds like a pretty good dose
of tolerance to me. No side is without sin, my point here is that there is
no Step and Fetch it in Mexico, that is a US white man made stereotype.
Each country and culture creates its own stereotype, some are worst
than others. Sounds to me like you don't get it and are making US culture
based assumptions. Talk to some Mexicans and see if they spit the same
vile ignorance about Blacks as many Americans still do. You may learn something.
Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."


jreboll

Jun 30, 2005, 3:57 AM

Post #7 of 36 (2545 views)

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Re: [tony] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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I know of a town in Michoacan that lies where there used to be a huge hacienda that imported black slaves as laborers. You can still see some negroid features in some of their residents. However, unless you knew something about the history of this area, you would never guess by looking at the makeup of the town's population. Here in the US you see many many towns with small pockets of blacks that have never assimilated into the general population. The "melting pot" in the US has traditionally excluded non-europeans. I say "traditionally" because I have being seeing more acceptance of Hispanics now than when I was younger.


Carol Schmidt


Jun 30, 2005, 10:22 AM

Post #8 of 36 (2484 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Blacks in Mexico

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Thanks, Jennifer, for these excellent links on African-Mexican roots and history.

http://www.mexconnected.com/mex_/feature/ethnic/bv/vaughnindex.html and http://www.mexconnected.com/...nic/bv/spec0303.html

Carol Schmidt


Marta R

Jun 30, 2005, 10:37 AM

Post #9 of 36 (2475 views)

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Re: [jreboll] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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It's useful to remember that Mexico is a proudly mestizo (of mixed-ancestry) culture, and we in the US are not, despite our talk of a "racial melting pot." For the most part, our pot only melds Northern Europeans.

Marta


jrice

Jun 30, 2005, 4:11 PM

Post #10 of 36 (2414 views)

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Re: [tony] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Comparative race relations in Mexico and the United States is a very deep pond to dive into.

A couple of thoughts:

Africans once outnumbered Spanish in Mexico. Where did they go? What was the history of slavery in Mexico? Where did they go?

Why was slavery an issue when Hidalgo rose in 1810 and outlawed it (or tried to at the time)?

Some of the most revered figures of human rights in Mexico -- De las Casas, for example, -- advocated African slavery as an option to enslaving Indians.

Mexico served as a sort of haven from U.S. racism for quite a few African-Americans in the Jim Crow era. One interesting aspect would be the Mexican baseball league.

Mexico did not have formally established segregration as the U.S. did.

As a result, Mexico did not have a civil rights movement of the U.S. sort.

A crude (Cuban) blackface character is a regular feature of the main daytime television show on Mexico's most-watched network.

It is still common in Mexico to hear recordings of the universally revered Francisco Gabilondo Soler sing of "Negrito Sandia."

This is not a simple issue of A is better than B.


MARIA CUERVA

Jul 1, 2005, 9:42 AM

Post #11 of 36 (2311 views)

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Re: [tony] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Tony, what you have said is so to the point!
For my own part I can only say that in my family
we are blonde and blue eyed, very dark morenos with black eyes, red haired with green eyes. And all shades inbetween. And all beloved.
We call our dark skinned children negros. There has never been a sense of one being more beloved than the other. So there it is in the practicum of daily life in Mexico. I know we are not unique in the least.


Bubba

Jul 1, 2005, 12:46 PM

Post #12 of 36 (2275 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Well, the Memin Pinguin postage stamp furor rated the front page and a couple of follow up articles in Guadalajara's MURAL this morning (July 1).

The articles are lengthy so I won't bore you with any verbatim translation but here are some highlights (and lowlights):

Jesse jackson and Al Sharpton are demanding that these stamps be immediately retired or they will support a boycott of Mexican products and perhaps lead protests at the convention of the League of United Latin American Citizens currently underway in Little Rock.

White House spokesman Scott McLellan and National Seurity Advisor Stephen Hadley have weighed in with the positions that offensive racial stereotypes have no place in today's world and the Mexican government must be held accountable for issuing stamps depicting a clearly inappropriate character who appears lazy and slovenly. (Isn't it nice to know that the U.S. National Security Advisor has his priorities straight?)

Apparently, these stamps, with a retail value of $6.50Pesos have drawn bids of up to $200USD on E-Bay. (Those of you living in the Chapala area, forget it, they don't have them at the local post offices. My dreams of cashing in have been thwarted.)

The presidents of the Sociedad Mexicana de Caricacturistas and the Sociedad Mexicana de Historietistas have protested that these "politically correct" protestations coming from north of the border display an ignorance of Mexican history and should be ignored. (What was that about glass houses and santimonious nortenos?)

The character Memin Pinguin was created by one Yolanda Vargas Dulche (1923-1999) in the 1950s and was inspired by her travels in Cuba where she was said to have felt sympathetic with the black community there. The name "Memin Pinguin was, according to her, a name given her husband, Guillermo de la Parra, when he was a boy. "Memin" for Guillermo and "Pinguin" because "my father was a 'pingo'." Pingo is a hard word for me to translate but seems to imply a person who is a gadabout and/or ragamuffin. Perhaps one of you can clarify that.

A Mexican acquaintance of mine was quite adamant that Memin Pinguin is not a character representing a racial stereotype but a cartoon character without negative connotations beloved by Mexican children and held in great affection. She seemed to be inferring that Mexico is not racist against blacks in the same way many are in the United States and, therefore, the character is acceptable in an historical context. In that sense, I guess had we in the United States been as enlightened as the Mexicans, there would have been no need for Quaker Oats to put Aunt Jemima on a diet.


(This post was edited by Bubba on Jul 1, 2005, 12:49 PM)


talosian


Jul 1, 2005, 3:13 PM

Post #13 of 36 (2238 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Seems no one has mentioned some of the American cartoon characters which who are Mexican or at least use Mexican expressons/accents. I can only think of one series (Road Runner and Wiley Coyote. "Aribe! Ariba!") right now by name, but I know there were more. I hae never heard a Mexican, much less a Mexican Government official say these cartoons should be pulled from TV.

Of course I don't see Al Sharpton and Crew making a fuss about Quaker Oat Company which still promotes the "Aunt Jemima" product brand which shamelessly shows a Black woman in what can be taken to be a "servant" position of serving breakfast. But Quaker Oats did somewhat bow to political correctness when over the last two decades it slightly toned down the African features of Junt Jemima.

And does this really seem the type of thing which heads of governments should get involved in debating? The U.S. needs to learn that it can not export its values (or let's say "impose it's values") on the entire World. I think we see how that idea is going in Iraq ($200,000,000,000, over 1,500 Americans dead and 10,000+ Iraqui civilians dear or wounded).

Jt more ramblings from me.
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.


rjkveton


Jul 1, 2005, 3:54 PM

Post #14 of 36 (2228 views)

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Re: [talosian] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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I think the Mexican government needs to demand an apology from Pat Boone for recording the song Speedy González.


sfmacaws


Jul 1, 2005, 5:07 PM

Post #15 of 36 (2203 views)

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Re: [talosian] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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It's pretty amusing how anything that is considered critical of Mexico quickly gets turned into one of those "yeah, but the US is worse" threads.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Bubba

Jul 2, 2005, 7:05 AM

Post #16 of 36 (2145 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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I just saw a BBC report on the Memin Pinguin controversy and the segment included an interview with Vicente Fox during which he indicated that U.S. interference with Mexico's issuance of these stamps revealed a profound ignorance of Mexican history and culture and that, in my words, it would freeze in hell before the Mexican government withdrew the stamps.

The BBC report also showed huge lines of locals at urban post offices waiting to buy these stamps after word got out that a series of them went for close to $200USD on E-Bay. Neat, no? Buyers in the U.S. and elsewhere are willing to pay $200USD for a set of stamps that sell originally for $6.50Pesos each thereby transferring wealth to politically incorrect Mexican opportunists. I love it.


dtracy8671

Jul 2, 2005, 6:16 PM

Post #17 of 36 (2086 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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I remember as a child my favorite movie was Disney's "Song of the South" with Uncle Remus. I was in love with that old black man and his stories. Then along came the "Jesse Jackson's and Al Sharptons" of the world and convinced everyone that Uncle Remus was a "stereotype" and Disney banned the movie. Gee, I had no idea how "awful" Uncle Remus was until someone pointed it out to me and explained that his very existence was a condemnation on an entire race of people. I was just going along singing Zip-A-Dee-Do-Da and enjoying every wonderful minute with this amazing old man who could make me laugh, cry, smile and enjoy life. Gosh, I didn't even realize he was black until it was pointed out to me...

I would like to thank all the do-gooders who have to make everything a race issue! Without them I would have a very hard time deciding for myself if it is racisism or not!

Oh, and one more thing, I am really, really, sick and tired of everything being made into a race issue!! God knows we are a world of racial differences, and I happen to love that! What a horrible place this would be if we were all exactly the same.


Esteban

Jul 2, 2005, 8:13 PM

Post #18 of 36 (2061 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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I was first in line at the post office in Mazatlan this morning but they were already sold out. The clerk said to come back next week. It looks like the word is out.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...=5594826989&rd=1

Click the above link for the latest price on Ebay.


jrice

Jul 2, 2005, 8:26 PM

Post #19 of 36 (2057 views)

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Re: [dtracy8671] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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On many levels, the Memin Piguin controversy seems absurd – so much hoo-hah about a comic book. But there are a number of things about it that are very interesting. Mainly the utter incomprehension on each side.

One of those is that Americans _ and, interestingly, many Mexican-American activists and academics _ look at the character and filter it through U.S. eyes and in a U.S. context. They have expressed horror – at least at the impact that the image will have on other Americans.

Memin is what was called a “pickaninny” in the United States, a cute little black boy – one here drawn to look a lot like a monkey, often with a stooping gait, thinning hair. His mother is a “mammy” of the original, pre-corrected Aunt Jemima sort.

Memin, in fact, is drawn after a 1940s American cartoon (see La Jornada of Saturday for details) .

Pickaninnies and Mammies were almost always sympathetic characters. Sympathetic but inferior. Often charmingly childish or simple. They were images so common they became clichés, stereotypes, which helped reinforce the idea that even good black folks weren’t quite on your level but should be treated with charity. It was an image that was a part and parcel of other stereotypes about blacks. That’s at least part of the reason why many people in the U.S., who had memories of being told they could not vote, could only work at inferior jobs, were not quite fully human, saw this as offensive to the roots of their being.

It doesn’t help that other characters in the books are drawn as relatively normal or realistic figures, so that Memin – who is often explicitly used as an image for a black boy _ is relatively freakish.

Now there's a lot of difference in stereotypes. There's a debate about the Uncle Remus series, with many seeing it as good stuff that was respectful of the culture overall. Others disagree. But there's a lot less debate about the value of blackface skits or about a lot of other black images, even supposedly sympathetic.

The fact, again, that they draw on U.S. images, has helped confuse Americans to the fact that Mexico’s racial context is very different, that Mexicans don’t bring the baggage of (recent) black segregation to this, that slavery was ended earlier. That there are relatively few visible Afro-Mexicans. That the whole concept of racial categories in Hispanic nations was very different and more subtle than that in the United States. The fact that people refer to one another as “blackie” and the like doesn’t have anything like the context it does in the U.S. – though one usually wouldn’t venture to suggest somebody was an ape-like simpleton even here.

Mexicans, whose nation served as a haven for many persecuted U.S. blacks, have reason to be proud of that fact. The stereotypes, even those imported from the U.S., have a different impact.

On the other hand, it does mean that recordings of the beloved song “Negrito Sandia”, or “Little Black Watermelon,” are very common. Elena Poniatowska, of all people, raised this as an example of racial harmony in Mexico.

Memin Pinguin often tried hard to impart anti-racist messages, even if the impact often could seem ambiguous in the eyes of people who had experienced the Civil Rights Movement.

Mexicans have been horrifically treated in the United States. In the 20s and 30s, poor Mexican women in California were sometimes sterilized without their consent – similar to what happened to some black women in the South. California, at least, introduced busing in the 1940s – to take Mexican children AWAY from Anglo schools (a fact I discovered as a child when at school I ran across a stock of ancient books in my elementary school storehouse that referred to a school in town I’d never heard of. And when I asked. . . ).

For those and all the other, well known reasons, folks here get irritated at suggestions they are racist.

But it’s fascinating that through the first few days of this issue, only the American press made any effort to find Afro-Mexicans – or even academic experts on Afro-Mexicans – and ask them what THEY thought about Memin. One radio program interviewed white Cuban-Americans about what they thought, but not Afro-Mexicans.

Oddly, most Afro-Mexicans I saw interviewed in the U.S. press were a lot less fond of the little “cultural treasure” than were their less moreno counterparts, and a lot less likely to dismiss the racism issue.

One very prominent Mexican newspaper columnist suggested that it was only the United States that had experienced slavery. Several others raised the very valid issue of segregation in the United States – but as if that answered the issue at home. No need to talk to black Mexicans. At one point during the colonial era, there were more Africans than Spaniards in Mexico. To be honest, I don’t know what happened to them. The happy version is that they were absorbed. I’m sure that’s at least partly true.

In the first few days of this, there was dramatically little examination in the Mexican press or among officials about the question of race in Mexico, other than to immediately blow it off as an issue and to insult those who felt offended as racist gringos.

The dozens of stories and radio broadcasts I saw also focused on the White House and Jesse Jackson. Extremely few (Reforma had one Saturday) mentioned in any detail the widespread outrage among Latino activists in the United States. Extremely few focused on how broad-based was African-American unhappiness with the image.


tony


Jul 3, 2005, 9:03 PM

Post #20 of 36 (1958 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US Still don't get it??

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Hello
IMHO it is a perspective thing plain and simple. Blacks in Mexico
are not perceived the same as the US. My wife recalls that the Memin
character is a mischievous boy whose mother is always teaching him
moral values. He is not a shiftless, lazy fill in the US stereotype here.
Please talk to a few Mexicans about their perception, educate yourself
about the people around you. Just a suggestion

Believe me there are plenty of things to criticize Mexico about, there
are plenty of places to go to talk negatively about Mexico. But don't you
think that a website dedicated to people who left the US for Mexico is
going to have a favorable slant - Go figure! Tony

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."


RafKarina

Jul 3, 2005, 9:39 PM

Post #21 of 36 (1951 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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On a personal note, I am Mexican-American and grew up in Mexico during my childhood. I have very fond memories of Memin Pinguin. I don't remember any specifics just that he was part of my childhood along with Tawa, Chanoc, Borola. Superman and others. What I remember about Memin Pinguin was that he was funny and always outsmarting others.


MG Rabon


Jul 4, 2005, 7:02 AM

Post #22 of 36 (1925 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Quote
It's pretty amusing how anything that is considered critical of Mexico quickly gets turned into one of those "yeah, but the US is worse" threads.



Jonna, That is probably because many of us chose to live in Mexico because we think the US IS worse, among other reasons.

Compórtate bien, y si no puedes, invítame!
MG Rabon


ms mac

Jul 4, 2005, 7:36 AM

Post #23 of 36 (1917 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are S--- Disturbers. We had some controversy here in St. Louis, and they tried to make a big racial issue out of it. That's all they're doing in Mexico.
ms mac


sfmacaws


Jul 4, 2005, 2:46 PM

Post #24 of 36 (1861 views)

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Re: [MG Rabon] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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Well, that is exactly my problem with this kind of knee-jerk reaction.


Quote
many of us chose to live in Mexico because we think the US IS worse,


Worse in every way? In all imaginary contests, the US is worse? And, more relevent to this discussion, does this mean that Mexico has no faults and no reasons to improve or change because, golly gee, it's always going to be 'better' than the US?? You are deluded!

It's not a popularity contest. These are two countries, neighbors, sharing many traits and very different in others. Neither of them has a lock on benign and uplifting government, culture or bureaucracy. The hard part for some of you is acknowledging the very real problems in Mexico. I won't even go into what I think it says about you that you can find nothing positive to say about your culture of birth.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Esteban

Jul 4, 2005, 2:56 PM

Post #25 of 36 (1854 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Memin Pinguin stamp causes furor in US

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I'm not sure why you don't understand why some people would chose Mexico over the USA? I enjoy it here much more than up there. I get more bang for the buck plus a thousand other reasons. Neither place is perfect but I chose to live here NOT up there. It's pretty simple. It's not a matter of which is worse, it comes down to which is BETTER for ME.


(This post was edited by Esteban on Jul 4, 2005, 3:03 PM)
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