Forums > Areas > Jalisco's Lake Chapala Region

futant

Jun 17, 2005, 9:20 AM

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Groundwater again

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Does anyone here know if there was any water rationing invoked Lakeside at any time in the past ten years?

If yes, when and for how long and who or what agency is responsible for imposing rationing in the area?

Still hunting all that crucial info.

David

futant

Jun 17, 2005, 9:26 AM

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Re: [futant] Groundwater again

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Oops! forgot also to ask in the last one:

To whom do folks supplied by municipal water wells pay their water bills? I'd appreciate any name, company name, gummit agency, phone #'s, addresses, email address, any connection to an English speaker at one of these places or the advance info that there are only Spanish speakers there (so I can get a Spanish speaker on the phone at this end.)

Thanks,

David

sfmacaws

Jun 17, 2005, 9:41 AM

Post #3 of 25 (1325 views)

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Re: [futant] Groundwater again

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OK, this is driving me crazy. Why is this important? Or, what are you going to do with this water info?

Sorry, I don't have any answers for you. It just seems that your interest in this goes beyond someone considering moving to the area.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

Esteban

Jun 17, 2005, 12:22 PM

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Re: [futant] Groundwater again

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Since I've been involved with water system design and installation, both public and private, for such a long time, I too would be interested in "the rest of the story". I might add that a few days ago, I found out about a large hydrological study that has been done for Mexico. I believe every state has been tested. You might want to look at the study.

futant

Jun 17, 2005, 12:33 PM

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Re: [Esteban] Groundwater again

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I wonder if that's Dr. Ramiro Rodriguez' study. If yes, I've been in touch with him, and he stated a few things that still left me with almost all my original questions. I can fwd them on to you if you want.

If it's not his study, can you aim me at it? URL? Is it in English, maybe, I hope (hard to find local Spanish speaker here who can read technical terms in Spanish)?

Best,

David

Esteban

Jun 17, 2005, 12:40 PM

Post #6 of 25 (1283 views)

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Re: [futant] Groundwater again

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I'm not sure if it's his study or not. My information comes from DF. It comes from people working in the water industry. I don't think the info is online. Yes, I would like the info, you have, so I can see the possibility of installing a small rural water system in Sinaloa. I will dig deeper and find out exactly where in Mexico, you can look at the maps and hydrological information.

I seriously doubt the information is in English.

Again, are you doing this research for marketing purposes or what?

Esteban

(This post was edited by Esteban on Jun 17, 2005, 12:42 PM)

futant

Jun 17, 2005, 1:12 PM

Post #7 of 25 (1261 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Groundwater again

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>I seriously doubt the information is in English. <

Can you translate it so that you could find answers in it about the aquifer condition at Lakeside? Most Spanish speakers near me don't have the kind of education it takes to make sense of such a document.

>Again, are you doing this research for marketing purposes or what? <

Please see my upcoming reply to <sfmacaws>. Both of you may have missed my first post a couple of days ago where I explained it a little.

David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's Dr. Rodriguez reply of 5/19/05:
Dr Pursglove

Dr Raynal sent me your e-mail. One of my Ph D students studied the Cienega de Chapala aquifer, located in the western margin of the Chapala lake. We were looking for the hydraulic connecting between the lake and the aquifer. There is, but the lake is in a graven filled with lacustrine sediments (clay) and the flows are very reduced.

We have a paper in Geofisica Internacional

Silva T., Rodriguez R, Ochoa S. and López S., 2002; Lake Chapala and the Cienega aquifer: Chemical evidences of hydraulic communication/.// Geof. Internal/. Vol 41, Num 1, 63-74 pp. México

The Independence aquifer is in Guanajuato State.

There is not other study related to the aquifer in Chapala, because only in the Cienega there is a well defined aquifer.

Dr Ramiro Rodriguez Geophysics Institute UNAM Mexico

futant

Jun 17, 2005, 1:38 PM

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Re: [sfmacaws] Groundwater again

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>OK, this is driving me crazy. Why is this important? Or, what are you going to do with this water info?

Sorry, I don't have any answers for you. It just seems that your interest in this goes beyond someone considering moving to the area.<

{{I replied to this earlier, but my reply ddn't make it to the BBS even though you just replied to it <???>, so here's another try:}}

I want this expensive and complex move to be my last one this time around on the planet. I don't want to get all settled and three years later find no water at the tap and have to move again, this time in an emergency.

I've read in several places that the aquifers in MX are under serious stress and being depleted at alarming rates. Aquifers can run dry and collapse irreparably especially if they're depleted rapidly. Some are in much worse shape than others in MX, and maybe the ones feeding the wells at Lakeside are okay and will be even if the population increases at current rates.

Maybe not.

I'm somewhat surprised to discover so little information about this among the expats living there at Lakeside. Very little even among those who administer the separate wells feeding some of the newer housing developments. I'd have thought such a vital subject would have everybody collecting and comparing data.

So, does that help?

David

sfmacaws

Jun 17, 2005, 3:22 PM

Post #9 of 25 (1215 views)

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Re: [futant] Groundwater again

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David,

Your reply to me and my answer were both private messages. If you look at the top of a message, the choices are reply and private reply. You probably didn't realize you sent it as a private reply.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

futant

Jun 17, 2005, 4:01 PM

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Re: [sfmacaws] Groundwater again

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>Your reply to me and my answer were both private messages. If you look at the top of a message, the choices are reply and private reply. You probably didn't realize you sent it as a private reply. <

Oops, thanks. 'Swhat I get for rushin'.

-=d=-

Esteban

Jun 17, 2005, 5:34 PM

Post #11 of 25 (1182 views)

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Re: [futant] Groundwater again

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No matter where you go in the world, the acquifers are stressed. It's sort of like the world wide fisheries situation. What makes you think you'll get adequate information to be able to forcast the future of water anywhere? The biggest problem with water has to do with basic infrastructure, the lack of water saving technology and of water saving education.

Such things as rainwater collection, the use of recycled water, water saving devices and several other things will determine the future of your area. It's out of your control. The states with the most water are: number 1= Chiapas, number 2 = Sinaloa. Not sure about the rest. Your questions are beyond the norm. If you think that most people should be asking this question, I think you are out of touch with reality. Most people expect to turn on the faucet and have water.

In Mexico, the expectations are a bit less but it's basically the same trip. When you turn on the lights, you expect them to come on right? So should one also look at that situation too? The natural gas supplies, in Mexico, are now less than the consumption. Partly due to the fact that Mexico is trying to change over polluting crude oil burning electrical generation to more clean gas burning plants.

I think you are looking in the wrong area if you are looking to find a place that will guarantee you water for even the next 20 years but, you, personally, can utitlize alternate methods to cut your consumption and actually survive on a very minute amount amount of water. So essentially, don't worry. You'll have enough to survive quite well.

Howard Botz

Jun 17, 2005, 7:17 PM

Post #12 of 25 (1159 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Groundwater again

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Water bills are paid once a year to SIMAPA (Sistema Municipal de Agua Potable y Alcantarillado de Chapala). My bill this year was $3940.60 There is an office here in Ajijic and one in Chapala where you pay depending where you live.

Howard

Rolly

Jun 17, 2005, 7:23 PM

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Re: [Howard Botz] Groundwater again

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WOW! Our water bill here in Lerdo is $70 pesos per month = $480 per year. And we have water 24/7 that is safe to drink out of the tap.

Rolly Pirate

Don

Jun 17, 2005, 7:40 PM

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Re: [Rolly] Groundwater again

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Rolly: I believe you mean 840 pesos per year, not 480 pesos.
Here in Sayula we have two homes and everyone pays the water bill once a year. Our bill this year was 979 pesos for both homes. We did receive a 50% senior citizen discount for our main home. We get water 24/7 unless a problem with the city equipment, which doesn't happen often. Don't know the quality of the water to drink, but many people do.

(This post was edited by Don on Jun 17, 2005, 9:43 PM)

Esteban

Jun 17, 2005, 7:43 PM

Post #15 of 25 (1147 views)

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Re: [Howard Botz] Groundwater again

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Our water/sewer bill is 37 pesos a month(Mazatlan). Your bill, Howard was in pesos right? Does it include a pool or something else that is water sensitive? Does the bill include sewer costs?

(This post was edited by Esteban on Jun 17, 2005, 8:34 PM)

Rogelio L.

Jun 18, 2005, 2:31 AM

Post #16 of 25 (1116 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Groundwater again

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Wow!!! All this water talk has got me thirsty, I think I will have a beer. Hope that the breweries have done the proper research so that our supply of Cervesa is not compromised by the lack of water.
Growing old is manditory, growing up is optional!!

jaybear

Jun 18, 2005, 3:42 AM

Post #17 of 25 (1111 views)

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Re: [shadow34] Groundwater again

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I don't think the talk about water resources is odd at all, altho the level of technicality is a bit more than I would look for, even tho I learned in college to work from original works if I really wanted to know about something (good life lesson).

I live in Massachusetts next to one of the great mill rivers of the industrial revolution. Twenty years ago houses here were cheap, because no one wanted to live next to the polluted river. Now we have the river cleaned up, more or less (heavy metals sink to the bottom and get covered by mud), BUT we cannot tap the river for water, because there is not enough of it and the river would dry up. So, we have a water ban in the summer and an ordinance against new lawn irrigation systems, and we are short of water and can't find any good place to drill in our small town. The situation in the West (California, Arizona) is even trickier. So, I have had many people ask me if the Mexican community to which we are moving (Ajijic and environs) has adequate water. I have never heard the issue discussed, except that people say the water flow has never been a problem and they don't expect it to be, but who knows?

So, that's just to say I would love to hear knowledgeable commentary about this issue. I noted that the water commissioner in Chapala had been fired due to the drowning of a small child in a new water line that was supposed to have been covered, if I remember the story right, so I guess we will not be hearing from him on this.
"Don't believe everything you think" - Maxine

JayBear

Bubba

Jun 18, 2005, 6:40 AM

Post #18 of 25 (1091 views)

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Re: [jaybear] Groundwater again

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We have seen water rationed in Ajijic since our arrival here in 2001. When it happened it was at the end of the dry season and was unofficial. SIMAPA simply turned off the water supply during certain hours of the day. This is a good reason to make sure your roof and underground cisterns are functioning properly. A good on premise cistern system that is a combination underground and gravity feed system will see you through any periodic water shortage especially if you wise up and use beer for sustenance and water only for the essential Ajijic passtime of filling buckets with it to toss into the street from your doorway for no apparent reason except to narrowly miss unsuspecting passing pedestrians .

SIMAPA's water charges are a great mystery to me. My neighbor and I have similar houses with swimming pools and similar overall water usage yet my annual water bill is about $2,500 Pesos and his is $800 Pesos. 'Tis a mystery.

Incidentally, the tinaco (rooftop) cistern system in wide use in Mexico is considered by the government to be extremely wasteful. Imagine countless individual and leaky water storage systems scattered throughout the country instead of well maintained centralized municipal water storage systems delivering water consistently. Estimates by government functionaries regarding waste from tinacos and widely defective water delivery systems are staggering. A couple of years back, the city of Guadalajara decided to campaign against tinacos by guaranteeing a steady supply of water to residents. Once that was assured, tinacos were to be systematically removed from homes. Of course, with good reason, nobody believed them and this municipal improvement plan, like most around here, died a quiet death almost as soon as it was born.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Jun 18, 2005, 6:43 AM)

Georgia

Jun 18, 2005, 7:19 AM

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Re: [futant] Groundwater again

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As others have suggested, there are no guarantees in life. That being said, I find the situation here no worse than where I came from. We live at the west end of the lake, and are not connected to a public system, although we could be. We have our own well. I should note that it is a dug, not a drilled well, and supplies us with a greater flow rate than the drilled well we had in New York. We have a water softener and purifier system (filters and UV lights) on the well, which water we have tested every two months. The quality is better than adequate for consumption. Add to this the availability of collected rainwater in a cistern or aljibe for non-potable uses, and there is ample water supply at the present time.

Weather patterns can change, volcanos can erupt, nuclear war can break out: all these things will affect our water supply, and much more. We can't predict them or prepare for them: that's the x quantity in life. Kind of makes it an exciting journey in my book.

Howard Botz

Jun 18, 2005, 9:26 AM

Post #20 of 25 (1052 views)

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Re: [Georgia] Groundwater again

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Yes, my bill was in pesos, and no I do not have a swimming pool. SIMPA does not monitor or charge for actual water usage. I think their formula is based upon the size of the property and/or the house.

Howard

futant

Jun 18, 2005, 9:42 AM

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Re: [Georgia] Groundwater again

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>We live at the west end of the lake, and are not connected to a public system, although we could be. We have our own well. I should note that it is a dug, not a drilled well<

Aaahh! Thanks for the specific data. That's the kind of thing I need!!

Was that well dug with just an excavator or backhoe? How deep is it? Did anyone mention to you how close the groundwater is to the surface there? do lots of your neighbors there also have dug wells? Is that the rule rather than the exception?

Thanks,

David

Georgia

Jun 18, 2005, 9:51 AM

Post #22 of 25 (1037 views)

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Re: [futant] Groundwater again

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Shovels. Depends on the season. About 15 feet deep average. Many do. Others are connected to the local water/sewer line. I have been told, but do not have authoritative direct knowledge, that there is an underground stream here that our well taps into. Maybe yes, maybe no. All I know is we have plentiful water from our dinky little well. Oh, also note, the wells do not have casings.

(This post was edited by Georgia on Jun 18, 2005, 9:52 AM)

futant

Jun 18, 2005, 9:54 AM

Post #23 of 25 (1035 views)

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Re: [Howard Botz] Groundwater again

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>Water bills are paid once a year to SIMAPA (Sistema Municipal de Agua Potable y Alcantarillado de Chapala). My bill this year was $3940.60 There is an office here in Ajijic and one in Chapala where you pay depending where you live. <

Great info! Any idea how I might contact an English speaker at one of their offices, someone familiar with the wells and their recovery rates, recent rationing (if it happened) etc.? If no English speaker available, then a knowledgeable Spanish speaker with whom I might make a phone appointment, so I can get a Spanish speaker at my phone at the appointed time (very hard to do, but I'll do it if it's the only way. My Spanish speaker can call to make the appointment, but the call has to be made from my phone for billing and recording purposes.)

Do you know the address and phone number for that agency? Email? (I know, I know, but I can dream, can't I?)

And what manner of agency is it? Federal, state, local township? Or is it a government agency at all?

Gracias,

David

Bubba

Jun 18, 2005, 9:57 AM

Post #24 of 25 (1034 views)

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Re: [Howard Botz] Groundwater again

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Howard:

As to your theory that SIMAPA's water charges are based on the size of the property or house, our neighbor's property and house are the same size as ours and we both have swimming pools with the same water volume. The only difference is that they have one more bathroom than do we which implies more water usage. Yet our water bill is $2,500 Pesos a year and his is $800 Pesos a year or less than 1/3rd of our cost. So, if your formula notion is correct, somebody at SIMAPA needs to go back to school for a remedial math course.

By the way, his annual property taxes are significantly higher than ours and both houses are the same age and have been improved several times. Go Figure.

For those of you considering the move down here, keep this in mind. If the above obvious inequities bother you, stay in Dubuque. If, on the other hand, this amuses you, come on down.

futant

Jun 18, 2005, 12:41 PM

Post #25 of 25 (1001 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Groundwater again

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>No matter where you go in the world, the acquifers are stressed. It's sort of like the world wide fisheries situation. What makes you think you'll get adequate information to be able to forcast the future of water anywhere? <

True for many places, yes, and far worse, of course, is privatization which has already made big inroads into MX with Vicente's blessing. As any futurist will tell you, barring a multiple hydrogen bomb holocaust spinning the atmosphere off the planet, the next big human crisis after Peak Oil is going to be water rights, conservation and distribution.

But water *shortage* problems are not on the immediate future agendas in places like Panama or Indonesia (particularly Batam I. just south of Singapore). Both of these places are on my short list along with Lakeside, which occupies the #1 spot right now if I can just get into a comfort level about the water supply situation there.

>I think you are looking in the wrong area if you are looking to find a place that will guarantee you water for even the next 20 years but,<

Prolly only need 10 years if it's just for me. After that, I'll have "left the building" a la the Graceland rock star (RIP). But, I'm hoping the groundwater will last longer than that. My strong estimate is the USA is headed into several major crises, both geopolitical and climatic (which last will lead to huge population displacements and major civil strife), and my daughter now living in Philadelphia will be seeking refuge from the ugly chaos in the next four or five years. I'd feel very good if I could offer her that in a place where the water supply is likely to be okay for twenty or more years after her arrival.

I mean, after all, even if the aquifers do fail, there is still the lake. If there are significant groundwater shortages and wells running dry, an emergency building program might get into place and put up a lake water purification plant for Lakeside. Or enlarge the present one there that serves Guadalajara.

Maybe. . .I hope. Still need more info, and I thank all of you for the specifics you've already supplied.

Best,

David