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Esteban

Jun 13, 2005, 2:13 PM

Post #26 of 40 (3658 views)

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Re: [alex .] drivers actually stopping

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I didn't think of that one Alex...and also, people actually stop at the stop signs. I know here in Mazatlan, if you stop at a stop sign (not to be miscontrued to mean "stoplight") you're possibly putting yourself in harm's way ie someone may rear-end you!


Bubba

Jun 13, 2005, 3:01 PM

Post #27 of 40 (3646 views)

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Re: [Bubba] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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A poster on Chapala.Com has sent me a message taking me to task for a small portion of my post on this forum in response to Esteban's post on this thread. The general topic of that post regarded the surprise and disappointment of a naive young southern man in the mid-60s who expected to escape oppressive and institutionalized racism by leaving the confines of Tuscaloosa for the liberal and, presumably enlightened areas around Santa Monica and Hollywood. I won't repeat that post here except to say that Santa Monica and Hollywoood failed to live up to my expectations. As a small part of that post I made the following excerpted remark:

"...I have never met more racist people than upper class mixed race and European Mexicans in their attitudes toward their indigenous brethren."

I was trying to make the observation that racism exists everywhere and that includes Mexico but my phrase was poorly presented.

The poster rightly scolded me for seeming to infer that I had "met" upper class Mexicans. Well, the only time I have ever met an "upper class" Mexican in any intimate way was either when I was under the knife at Hospital Del Carmen or nearly run over by their spoiled brat kids racing their dirt bikes up and down the beach at Lake Chapala littering the beach and showing no regard for the lives or safety of village folks walking the beach in front of their lakeside weekend mansions.

I wish to take this opportunity to rephrase my remark:

Wherever one was born or now lives, there is no need to search across one's borders to observe both racism and classism which manifest themselves in many ways including the inequitable distribution of wealth and services and the oppression of indigenous people by local elites. Mexico is no different than the rest of us.

All that really means is that nobody should feel sanctimonious when asessing the track records of their neighbors anywhere in the world.

Now, before any of you grouse about that statement and suggest that I leave, I must inform you that the existence of inequality and racism are not factors in my decision as to where to live and Mexico is and always will be one of my favorite places on the planet. I have never lived anywhere where these factors were not present in spades. Hell, if my primary criterion for a wonderful place to live was social equality I'd have to move into a shoebox.

I suspect all this hyper-sensitivity masks some guilt. Lighten up folks.


1ajijic


Jun 13, 2005, 3:16 PM

Post #28 of 40 (3637 views)

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Re: [Bubba] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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Reading this entire thread made me remember when I first started writing my NB Mexico web site; which well before we moved here.
The very first page I wrote for that site was the Why Mexico page. Because.... over the years we visited before we moved, in discussions with acquaintances and such I had heard many of the negative, uniformed, statements quoted here. It STILL amazes me, as it does many of you, just how uninforemd the rest of the world and especially the U.S. citizenry is about countries other than THIERS!!
http://www.newbeginningsmexico.com


1ajijic


Jun 13, 2005, 4:08 PM

Post #29 of 40 (3620 views)

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Re: [tony] More Dumb Questions ISNT IT REALLY ABOUT MONEY??

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Ever since I became interested in Mexico I was skeptical of the information the US press gave about Mexico. Now that I live here I find that there are somethings that are inferior to my previous local and other things superior. On the balance I find Mexico far superior for "quality" of life and that is based on a very subjective and complicated mix and that is not about money.

Why the US press has been trashing Mexico for about 100 years I have never found out? I do know that Hearst had a bug up his for Mexico and tried to get several presidents to take over Mexico. Several plots failed.
http://www.newbeginningsmexico.com


Ed and Fran

Jun 13, 2005, 5:11 PM

Post #30 of 40 (3600 views)

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Re: [Bubba] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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Bubba:

Wherever one was born or now lives, there is no need to search across one's borders to observe both racism and classism which manifest themselves in many ways including the inequitable distribution of wealth and services and the oppression of indigenous people by local elites. Mexico is no different than the rest of us.



Okay, guess I haven't publicly agreed with you in a few weeks so I probably haven't exceeded my personally imposed quota of one "I agree with Bubba" post per month. I'll use this month's allotment to compliment you on this thread. Actually, I understood where you were going with the original post.....


Regards

Ed


sfmacaws


Jun 13, 2005, 11:31 PM

Post #31 of 40 (3563 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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I'm going to join Ed and say that I also understood your first post, agreed with it, and now agree with this one. I think you said it quite well.


I have met upper class mexicans, spent a lot of time with them and in their homes albeit some 30+ years ago. I don't think you misrepresented their class behaviors, if you can generalize such a thing. At the time I believed it to be a generational thing, it wasn't much different than the way my father saw the world, but even my friends - we were all young then - had a much harsher attitude towards the indigenous than I was comfortable with.

There is no one without prejudice and distrust for some brand of other. I respect those who have looked at their biases, tossed those that are mindless and made a thoughtful decision about those they keep. I prefer to use cultural beliefs as a basis for my biases, not race or appearance or class. For instance, I'm highly prejudiced against males who support cultures that treat women as chattel whether it is a pimp in the US or a mullah in Saudi Arabia. I also distrust those who let religion rule their lives, the religion doesn't matter it is the mindless adherance to whatever the code is that makes me question their intelligence and honesty. Like them or not, they are my biases and at least I have looked at them in the light of day and decided they were useful.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




ignacio

Jun 14, 2005, 9:18 AM

Post #32 of 40 (3512 views)

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Re: [Bubba] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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I have read all of Bubba's posts on this subject, and I must say that I entirely agree with him, and challenge those that felt offended to go back and re-read them slowly and understand the message. The message is very clear, as he explains very carefully in his last posting.

From my name you can tell that my name implies Mexican-Spanish roots, and I can assure you I feel no bigotry in Bubba's postings, and as I said above, I agree 100% with the fact that it is the same every place that you go.


pat

Jun 14, 2005, 9:28 AM

Post #33 of 40 (3510 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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"I also distrust those who let religion rule their lives, the religion doesn't matter it is the mindless adherance to whatever the code is that makes me question their intelligence and honesty."

You are a smart woman Jonna. I read your posts here with interest because I find your view of the world is very similar to mine.. .. with the possible exception of the quote I highlighted above. I was raised in a religous environment as a child, but have moved away from it as I have grown older. I have to say though, that the people I knew growing up who were religous were some of the most intelligent and honest folks I have known. They weren't perfect, they had their biases and their distrusts just like we all do, but all in all, they were very smart, kind, and honorable people. That group included my parents, aunts, uncles and grandparents, as well as any number of other like-minded people in the area where I lived.

Having said that, I will also readily admit that there are some people and some religions that stretch the bounds of reason and are abusive to their own members as well as those who disagree with them. I too have problems with those faiths and those that practice them...

On the whole, however, I believe that the principles which underpin our culture were derived from the core principles of religious faith, and for the most part have been a good thing. Mans' interpretation of some of those principles, and his tendency to select or ignore specific principles as it suits his own advantage causes the wheels to come off of society from time to time.

But, I wonder, does your bias against those "who let religion rule their lives" extend south of the border too? Specifically, what is your take on the strong religious culture in Mexico?

I am trying not to be a troll here... but I am curious about your tolerance of religious culture NOB compared to that in Mx.

Pat


sfmacaws


Jun 14, 2005, 12:11 PM

Post #34 of 40 (3470 views)

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Re: [pat] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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Ah Pat, you've hit to the core of my discomfort with this bias of mine! It's been something I've had to really look at in the last few years. All the reasons would take too much (non Mexico related) space but the quick answer is that I have met some people since I began RVing that embody all those things that Christians are 'supposed' to be and that I didn't believe existed. So, I am looking at it and perhaps I will change or modify it one of these days.

As to the extreme forms of catholicism in Mexico, I have a real fascination with it and go out of my way to visit shrines and watch pilgrimages. I still believe that the leaders and pushers of this kind of extreme faith are less than honest and straightforward but I do see the intense belief in the followers.

Followers is a good word for all of it though, I don't see the kind of questioning and scientific reasoning that I associate with high intelligence and/or education. As I said, it's my bias and I recognize that as a bias it will fail when applied to individuals but so far has some value to me when applied to large groups.

Bottom line, I like the "trappings" of Catholicism in Mexico and find great beauty in it but think the "trappings" of protestantism in the US, with the exception of some of the music, are boring.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




pat

Jun 14, 2005, 7:31 PM

Post #35 of 40 (3402 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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A well expressed and direct answer, Jonna.

But it does bring me back to the reason I asked the you the question in the first place... because of what I see as a common sentiment among some expats and soon-to-be expats who post on these boards -- acceptance and admiration of their newly adopted Mexican culture and repudiation of their native NOB culture. A willingness to overlook or excuse the shortcomings of the Mexican culture, while being less tolerant of the warts of their native cultures.

Let me make this clear up front. There is a great deal to be admired in the MX culture. I was raised in the very strong Tex-Mex culture of south Texas, which while certainly not true to the culture of Mexico, did instill in me a respect for many of the things that are directly associated with the Mexican culture....a high sense of honor, strong work ethic, love of family, religious faith, etc. The more I see of the Mexican people and the culture, the more I see to admire. I love Mexico. I love it.

But, I am continually amazed at the contempt directed at the culture NOB, specifically toward the US, most often by US expats. Often, whenever a question or criticism is raised about something Mexican, the response, rather than addressing the issue, is directed toward a comparison of how much worse the situation is NOB. It's as if some folks think that proof of their love for, and assimilation into, the MX culture is directly proportional to the degree to which they can publically repudiate their native culture.

I don't understand it....


Esteban

Jun 14, 2005, 7:34 PM

Post #36 of 40 (3399 views)

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Re: [pat] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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Would you be so kind as to give an example of what you are talking about?

Thatnks,
Esteban


esperanza

Jun 14, 2005, 7:49 PM

Post #37 of 40 (3396 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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Quote
As to the extreme forms of catholicism in Mexico, I have a real fascination with it and go out of my way to visit shrines and watch pilgrimages. I still believe that the leaders and pushers of this kind of extreme faith are less than honest and straightforward but I do see the intense belief in the followers.




I'd be interested to hear what the 'extreme forms of Catholicism' are, and I'd like to know who are the folks who are the leaders and the pushers.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Royer Yonson

Jun 14, 2005, 10:25 PM

Post #38 of 40 (3365 views)

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Re: [jfurgers] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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I agree that the media's conveyed perception of Mexico is laughable, yet on the other hand, think of all the dumbells that are staying put in the USA keeping the hordes of gringos down to a reasonable level. God save us if the truth ever gets out!


gpk

Jun 15, 2005, 7:19 AM

Post #39 of 40 (3315 views)

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Isn't this thread a little too tangled??

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Isn't this thread a little too tangled?? Someone should start it again.


sfmacaws


Jun 15, 2005, 11:00 AM

Post #40 of 40 (3279 views)

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Re: [pat] More Dumb Questions People Ask About Mexico

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Quote
But, I am continually amazed at the contempt directed at the culture NOB, specifically toward the US, most often by US expats. Often, whenever a question or criticism is raised about something Mexican, the response, rather than addressing the issue, is directed toward a comparison of how much worse the situation is NOB. It's as if some folks think that proof of their love for, and assimilation into, the MX culture is directly proportional to the degree to which they can publically repudiate their native culture.


I'm not going to go searching for examples because #1 I'm lazy and #2 that could then be construed as an attack on the person that posted it and perhaps I would miss someone else's post. But, I totally agree with Pat that this has been my longtime impression on this forum. It's always reminded me of the old childhood response of "yeah, but Joey is worse". I've always considered it the response of someone who basically has no response so they must quickly start pointing elsewhere.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán


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