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Bubba

May 27, 2005, 9:37 AM

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On Attitude

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I saw something most disturbing on the CNN morning news program today and, while the reported event had to do with Indonesia and Australia, it reminded me so much of the attitudes of many nortenos visiting or living in Mexico that I felt I should alert those of you who missed the widely televised event so you can observe this extraordinary example of the arrogance of white people from economically advanced nations when confronted with the realities of life in lesser developed countries.

This young Australian woman was apprehended trying to smuggle 4.5 kilos of marijuana in Bali, normally a death penalty offense in Indonesia and the court in Bali had just handed down a 20 year prison sentence for her much to her shock, cloaked, as she thought, in the security of her white skin. She claimed that the marijuana was secreted in her luggage by someone else but that is beside my point since I am not arguing the merits of the case here.

The courtroom in Bali was packed with a large number of Australian whites and, when the sentence was handed down they went into a loud and entirely disrespectful rage bordering on a riot in the courtroom while court was still in session. They were indignant that an Indonesian court had dared to apply the law regarding drug smuggling to an Australian and they were screaming with indignation at the judge and insulting him. I have never observed such wild and inappropriate behavior in a courtroom and still do not know why the judge didn't throw them all in the slammer for contempt of court.

While a young man, I had the privilege of traveling about a number of third world countries and I had some hairy moments in Africa including nearly being shot for simply looking at the presidential palace in Zanzibar which was a maoist dictatorship in those days. There is one thing I learned then that has stayed with me all these years and that is that you never get anywhere in any country by disrespecting that country's laws and institutions and, by inference, its people and mores. And, it matters not that those laws and institutions do not suit your sense of fairness.

More than that however, since, when in Africa, I was young and poor and living in tents at game reserves and Salvation Army hostiles or YMCAs when the cities, I observed the way relatively rich white people, whether tourists, colonial hangers-on or aid workers treated the local people as they were chauffeured at breakneck speed through local villages on their way to the exclusive (and exclusionary) game lodges to observe local wildlife while sipping their Uganda Waragis brought them by a local African dressed to the nines in his house servant best going "Another Waragi, bwana?". These people, rich tourist and aid worker alike, treated Africans the same way we treated black Americans in the 1950s in my native Alabama - as our personal and somewhat quaint servants to be pitied and used rather than respected.

I'll tell you that if I were that judge and had been inclined toward eventual leniency, after the disgraceful display of arrogance by the Australians, I would be inclined to give no quarter.

Now, I don't mean to infer that Mexico is similar to either Indonesia or Zanzibar. I am talking about arrogant white people here. However, we can learn from this ocurrence. Those of you enjoying the kindness of the Mexican people please try to catch a glimpse of this event and maybe you, as I, will experience an epiphany and be reminded to try to deport yourself respectfully while a guest here.

White people from the United States were afforded protection by that status when I was in Africa in the 1960s but those days are over. Despite what one may think, not everyone worships your dollar.

I feel sorry for the young Australian woman but Indonesia does seem to have one thing in common with Mexico. You will get nowhere screaming at and insulting a judge in either place.


(This post was edited by Bubba on May 27, 2005, 12:15 PM)



gatonegro333

May 27, 2005, 10:43 AM

Post #2 of 37 (2438 views)

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Re: [Bubba] On Attitude

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bubba, thanks for this morning's lesson in ethnocentrism and entitlement. the obnoxiousness of those who feel themselves better than or above others isn't wholly owned by, as you imply, wealthy white folks from nob. there are plenty of not so wealthy whites and wealthy non-whites who do the same work. nothing worse than passing through a resort town and getting to experience that little game in action, in the airport, at a restaurant... makes me want to grab folks and shake em till they wake up. never tried it though. but, when that lack of respect falls into the realm of the legal or political arenas things can get real nasty real fast. you give some good advice, but i'm not sure you meant this:

"Those of you enjoying the kindness of the Mexican people please try to catch a glimpse of this event and maybe you, as I, will experience an epiphany and be reminded to try to deport yourself respectfully while a guest here." (bold added).

then again, maybe you did.


Bubba

May 27, 2005, 10:54 AM

Post #3 of 37 (2430 views)

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Re: [gatonegro333] On Attitude

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Gato:

You know that I know that we all know that my pointing out weaknesses in a particular ethnic group or economic class does not imply that other groups and classes are not equally defective in their own ways. I was, of course, reacting to the vile display of arrogance by those Australians. One subject at a time.

I sort of like your little deport conceit. My kind of humor.


(This post was edited by Bubba on May 27, 2005, 2:39 PM)


gatonegro333

May 27, 2005, 11:12 AM

Post #4 of 37 (2414 views)

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Re: [Bubba] On Attitude

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bubba, you're right. i know that you know. but, i kinda doubt that we all know.


Bubba

May 27, 2005, 12:33 PM

Post #5 of 37 (2375 views)

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Re: [gatonegro333] On Attitude

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Actually, Gato:

You know that I know that that last "they know" was insincere. I know they don't only not know but do not know they do not know and do not wish to know that they do not know and will never know and we think we know this because we foolishly consider ourselves knowledgeable.

I only threw in the last "know" because I needed one more "know" for the effect. Someone posting elsewhere around here has already figured that out and has called me on it, you know.

Words are fun but that doesn't change the fact that what the Australians did yesterday in Indonesia was disgraceful. .


sfmacaws


May 27, 2005, 12:37 PM

Post #6 of 37 (2373 views)

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Re: [Bubba] On Attitude

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What it reminds me of is Lori Berenson in Peru. Her wealthy family has done everything legal and illegal to try and get her released. They did get her sentence reduced from life to 20 years, personally I think that was the result of a big bribe. She probably should have been executed for aiding and conspiring with the Tupac Amaru, one of the deadliest and uncaring terrorist organizations to ever surface. Ah well, there are always those who think the laws are not meant for them. When the karma gods smote them they get very indignent, my sympathy for either of these cases is zero.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




NEOhio

May 27, 2005, 1:08 PM

Post #7 of 37 (2361 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] On Attitude

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Bubba you are absolutely on top of this one. Shameful behavior and attitude.

The reality is marijuana is a cash crop for export in Indonesia with a wink and a nod and a flat palm. They are very serious about anybody bringing it - she is lucky she is Australian, if she'd been Asian nobody would have ever seen her again after she left with the customs officials.

No sympathy here.

Puts a whole new spin on don't leave your bag unattended.


Don Moore


May 27, 2005, 1:28 PM

Post #8 of 37 (2342 views)

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Re: [Bubba] On Attitude

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Bubba,

How I hate to admit it, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am a former Peace Corps volunteer who lived pretty much as the people did (except that I had health insurance and the backing of Uncle Sam). I have seen a lot of colonial and neocolonial arrogance and racism and probably exhibited some of it myself. I have also had some close calls of the type you describe in your Madagascar story.

We may not see it the way our host country nationals do when we are guests in their country, but when in Rome we better do as the Romans do -- at LEAST with respect to the laws and major taboos.
Don Moore


Bubba

May 27, 2005, 3:02 PM

Post #9 of 37 (2294 views)

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Re: [Don Moore] On Attitude

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Don:

I must say that you identified the issue beautifully.

When I cruised through Africa and India in the 1960s as a "pretend" pauper with enormous family resources protecting my useless ass as an insurance policy, I had something almost no local person had except corrupt politicians and wired-in business people. I could and would always go home to my wealthy Alabama family and, as in one of my favorite movies, MISSING, someone from my family could be depended upon to search for me and care for me and hire some corrupt and connected attorney for me and, tell me who, among the poor in Bangalore of Kampala can say that and here were these phony Peace Corps " volunteers" (not you, Don, we're talking concepts here)who could eat grasshoppers and know that no matter how bad it got there there was always PanAm waiting on the runway in Nairobi to take you swiftly back to Birmingham and momma's chicken soup while your new found and deserted friends in Ouagadougou were slaughtered by people of whom you knew nothing and of whose values you had absolutely no concept.

What is more arrogant and ignorant than some Western fartblossum spouting off about "democracy" while turning his back on the Sudanese.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


(This post was edited by Bubba on May 27, 2005, 3:43 PM)


Texwheel

May 27, 2005, 3:11 PM

Post #10 of 37 (2286 views)

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Re: [Bubba] On Attitude

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Bubba,

After readiing your post, and before reading any other response....DANG GOOD POST!!! Well written, to the point, and a point well made. I just don't know how that woman "accidentally" carried 4+ kilos of mary in a bag without knowing about it. If she was a mule, she was grossly underpaid!

Tom.
Tom Williams
Georgetown, Texas
Texwheel@aol.com


Bubba

May 27, 2005, 3:41 PM

Post #11 of 37 (2275 views)

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Re: [Texwheel] On Attitude

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Tom:

Point well made. When I was travelling on my journey from Cairo to Capetown and then to India, I had many opportunities to smuggle such innocuous items as T-shirts and socks into places from Alexandria to Addis Ababa and I wouldn't touch any of that with a 10 foot pole. I think I know what happened and all I have to say is, if a bag seems to weigh some 4.1 kilos more than it did when you arrived it's probably not simply accumulated skidmarks in your underwear.


Gringal

May 27, 2005, 3:49 PM

Post #12 of 37 (2268 views)

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jennifer rose

May 27, 2005, 3:57 PM

Post #13 of 37 (2259 views)

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Re: [Gringal] On Attitude

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Get back on topic, folks, or risk losing this thread. This forum's about Mexico -- not Indonesia, not Sudan, and not Peru.


Bubba

May 27, 2005, 4:13 PM

Post #14 of 37 (2250 views)

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Re: [NEOhio] On Attitude

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That was a good point, NE. You have family in Indonesia and know what happens to Indonesians caught up in the Indonesian gulag. Twenty years my ass! How about gone! Not only never being heard from again but never having been known to have disappeared in the first place.

Americans decry the terrible corruption in Tijuana and Nuevo Laredo and Cancun yet send their uncontrollable and spoiled children to these places to feed the monster that would be starved and non-existent without their fodder. How ironic. Americans corrupt a country with their irresponsible and undisciplined stupidity and then blame the country they corrupted for that corruption.

Those who think know where the corruption is.


Bubba

May 27, 2005, 4:28 PM

Post #15 of 37 (2243 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] On Attitude

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Jennifer:

I have tremendous respect for you but the relationship beween Australia and Indonesia is absolutely on course in teaching us about the relationship between the United States and Mexico. That's why I brought up the subject here.

(1) White people versus brown people.
(2) First world versus third world economy
(3) First world racists screeching "We'll destroy Bali by removing our support!" when that support consists of disgracing Bali with their corruption of the country by supporting drinking, prostitution and personal excess.
(4) Utter disregard for the social norms of the country.

Tell me that this is not reflective of the relationship between U.S. and mexican societies. It reminds me of the pathetic father who repeatedly rapes his child and then blames her for having loose morals.

I think I know where I'm coming from.


Gringal

May 27, 2005, 5:06 PM

Post #16 of 37 (2220 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] On Attitude

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I stand corrected, Jennifer, and have accordingly deleted the off-topic post.


Don Moore


May 27, 2005, 9:35 PM

Post #17 of 37 (2157 views)

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Re: [Bubba] On Attitude

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4.2 kilos, if my math is correct that's about 9 pounds. Even when I was young and in good shape and weighed about 210 at 6-6 that was a noticeable weight to add to a back pack. I don't think anyone could have slipped a gallon plus of Jack Daniels into my back pack and me not notice it.
Don Moore


Don Moore


May 27, 2005, 9:39 PM

Post #18 of 37 (2156 views)

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Re: [Don Moore] On Attitude

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Oops! I should have said put a gallon of Jack Daniels into my pack as I was headed to Mexico. Now I'm on the subject.
Don Moore


Ed and Fran

May 28, 2005, 6:43 AM

Post #19 of 37 (2106 views)

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Re: [Don Moore] On Attitude

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I haven't really read enough to even try to form an opinion as to whether she's guilty or innocent.

I suppose if you were carrying the pack, then yes you would notice the extra weight.

But isn't her story that the package was slipped into her baggage after she checked it in Australia (by baggage handlers)? Do we know how far she lugged the baggage after arriving in the Bali airport? If she just pulled her things off the baggage carousel and threw them on a cart and headed for the customs line, I can understand how she might not have noticed.

Wasn't the Australian government involved in an investigation of the baggage handlers for just this very activity?


Trying to remember the movie that came out maybe 10 years ago regarding a story line very similar to this one.



Mexico tie-in: When we're going on a trip down here Fran packs enough junk that I'm not sure I'd notice an extra 10 pounds. I think she does it to disguise all the artesania she purchases to bring home. I'm glad we don't have to clear customs here in Tuxpan.


Regards

E&F


donwilliston


May 28, 2005, 6:52 AM

Post #20 of 37 (2102 views)

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Re: [Bubba] On Attitude

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Bubba,

I couldn’t agree with you more. The images on CNN made me wonder if those people shouting at the law enforcement and judicial officials had the slightest idea of how lucky they are.

Living in a tourist city I get to see arrogant Americans who show disrespect for Mexico. Let me mention that most Mexicans are excellent at not judging all of us expats because of the actions of the obnoxious ones.

Also, referring to a thread started by sfmacaws a few days ago. If a person is in Mexico but has disregard for the law, the customs, and the people can we say that such a person is in “The Real Mexico”?

---
"It's good enough to be true" Gracie Maurahan 1970
---


1ajijic


May 28, 2005, 7:32 AM

Post #21 of 37 (2081 views)

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Re: [donwilliston] On Attitude

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When travelling across borders, mainly by air, how could you protect your luggage from being tampered with? You can no longer lock anything and I always assumed that baggage handlers had those little tin keys, so why bother?
http://www.newbeginningsmexico.com


Don Moore


May 28, 2005, 8:14 AM

Post #22 of 37 (2061 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] On Attitude

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Actually, I haven't formed an opinion on guilt or innocence either, and I won't. I'll leave that to the Indonesian system. I was really just commenting on Bubba's post, on the behaviors of visitors to Indonesia (or Mexico or any other country) and on my own experience, not on the merit's of either side's case. You are indeed correct that none of us knows exactly what happened and when. I can't even accurately describe what happened to me last night, muchless know what happened in Indonesia.
Don Moore


Carol Schmidt


May 28, 2005, 8:43 AM

Post #23 of 37 (2038 views)

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Re: [donwilliston] On Attitude

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>f a person is in Mexico but has disregard for the law, the customs, and the people can we say that such a person is in “The Real Mexico”? >

Don, if a person is in the United States but has disregard for the law, the customs, and the people, can we say that such a person is in "The Real United States"?

Carol Schmidt


Marlene


May 28, 2005, 9:24 AM

Post #24 of 37 (2018 views)

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] On Attitude

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Quote
if a person is in the United States

Ahhh, but this isn't about the United States this time. I believe Don was attempting to bring the topic back to Mexico so the magic padlock doesn't suddenly appear.


(This post was edited by Marlene on May 28, 2005, 9:26 AM)


Professor


May 28, 2005, 9:00 PM

Post #25 of 37 (1919 views)

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Re: [donwilliston] On Attitude

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I'm just curious if some of you could give me some examples of behaviors that Mexicans may find to be arrogant that the North Americans have done in Mexico. As I've said before, I'm moving to D.F. later this year, and I don't want to seem like an arrogant American. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks all.
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