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johanson

May 15, 2005, 10:40 AM

Post #51 of 67 (1627 views)

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Re: [cuerva] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Cuerva: Have you been to the Berlin wall? I was there. I lived in Germany for 5 years during the time it was there. And for you to suggest "a wall is a wall" is very naive. I'm not going to sit and debate this with you. You have decided that the wall is bad and that illegal entry into another country is good. There is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise.

What would be possibly wrong with enforcing border security, especially if along with that increased security, a means were found to allow only those honest hard working migrant workers and their family members to enter? Remember our economy needs these workers. The trouble is, we will probably build the wall without providing an open door policy for that honest hard working migrant, until several years down the road.

In my community in NW Washington state, 15% if the children's first language as they enter school is not Spanish, but Mexican Spanish. According to my friends in the Mexican community, the vast majority of them do not have papers. I am not suggesting we get rid of these good hard working members of our society. I am suggesting we find a way to make their entry legal, to ensure they have all the rights of others. We can do that if when we start better controlling our borders (and it's a forgone conclusion that we will greatly increase security on our borders) we provide a means for the honorable foreign workers to enter our country.

The world has changed. Better border security will come, whether one likes it or not. Wouldn't it be better for you to focus your energy on getting the US to change (improve) their immigration, foreign worker policy, than to fight the inevitable?

Cuerva: If you ever to come to WA, drop by the offices of the NORTHWEST IMMIGRANT RIGHTS PROJECT (Proyecto para los Derechas del Immigrante) in Seattle.1-206-587-4025 They are working hard not to stop the wall but to protect those honorable persons who are already here and to provide a Legal, NOT ILLEGAL means for those who want to come here to do so.

Marta R

May 15, 2005, 10:54 AM

Post #52 of 67 (1623 views)

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Re: [Texwheel] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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"Protecting" a border like the US-Mexican one is more difficult than all the anti-immigrant rhetoricians would have us believe. We do not have an ocean between us, or a mountain range, or any other natural barrier of any convincing size.

Some proposals to “protect” the border are just plain ridiculous. Most of us have some knowledge of sections of the border between the U.S. and Mexico -- is it at all possible that a physical barrier is technologically feasbile or affordable? Perhaps we should hire Christo to erect another Running Fence and electrify it.

Or perhaps we can hire the National Guard to stand shoulder-to -shoulder, 24/7, facing South. No, belay that, they're all in Iraq.

Governor Schwarzengrabber is all for arming the citizenry and turning them loose to hunt illegals along the border, essentially equating people with game. Is anybody else as appalled by this as I am? Can we talk about the political and moral effects of this plan?

I beleive Bubba and others are right. We need to re-think the ways that these two countries connect, we need to protect business on the north and income on the south by coming to agreements. Citizens on both sides of the border need to think, people. We need to think.

Marta

(This post was edited by chrisnmarta on May 15, 2005, 10:54 AM)

Gringal

May 15, 2005, 12:09 PM

Post #53 of 67 (1606 views)

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Re: [esperanza] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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The website you referred to was very informative. Thank you.
My memory of the last years of the bracero program here in California are of inflamed political rhetoric on the subject of why welfare queens and kings should be picking strawberries instead of picking up Food Stamps and checks. There were screaming debates about how, if we paid farm workers a living wage, the price of lettuce would be $6.00 a head. None of these issues were ever resolved and the porous borders continue to provide underpaid work. I don't know the details of the current proposals in Washington, but I believe the USA can no more continue to afford the ills of semi-slave labor than it could the results of institutionalized slave labor in the South. I don't claim to know what the solutions should be, but I see the problem percolating down to how much groceries would cost if the wages were raised to a point where the jobs would be desirable to U.S. workers as well as illegal immigrants. That's a real "ouch" in the pocketbook, but that's the price. I'd appreciate being informed as to whether the proposed program includes paying living wages.

Several people have made the point that the viewpoints of the USA and Mexican leaders are inconsistent; i.e. that those coming into Mexico must have the bucks to gain legal admission, but that no walls should be erected to keep out the Mexicans. The economic reality is that there is little possibility that a flat-broke and jobless US citizen could hope to improve his fortunes by emigrating to Mexico. We retirees are welcome, only because we are the "green pipline". If only well-off Mexican "consumers" wanted in to the US, there would be a welcome mat at the border instead of a wall.

(This post was edited by gringal on May 15, 2005, 12:12 PM)

ignacio

May 15, 2005, 12:20 PM

Post #54 of 67 (1602 views)

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Re: [johanson] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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I agree with the need of controlling immigration, be it via a wall, or any other way. I personally have a wall around my house for my protection, to keep unwanted individuals from roaming within my property, and to keep my valuables under my ownership.

Absolutely nothing wrong with walls.

On the other hand, I also see the Mexican race being used as the escape goat for the terrorism and all the economic problems of the failing US economy.

I see it nightly on CNN how they continue to blame Mexicans not only for the economic woes, but also for the terrorist threat. Now I only point out that NONE of the terrorist acts that the USA has experienced were perpetuated by Mexicans, NOR did these terrorists came via the Mexican border. If I remember correctly, these bad guys all came from the middle east via Europe.

The other problem being blamed on these poor folks that cross the border illegally is of bringing in illegal drugs. Now it would take many thousands of mexicans to bring in the daily consumption levels of drug use in USA. I would think that what perhaps should be done to curtail the bringing of drugs into USA, via Mexico or anywhere else is 100% of inspection of containers, that reportedly today are only around 15% spot checked.

The main economic problem in the USA today, in my humble opinion was very well predicted by Mr. Ross Perot, when he stated that we should wait and hear the rushing sound of the high paid jobs leaving the USA with the approval of NAFTA. It happened, and continues to happen with the 'offshoring' of the good US jobs.

The middle class in the USA continues to disappear, and soon there will be very few people that can afford to buy new homes, cars, appliances, and splurge on long expensive vacations. Nafta only helped the rich on both sides, at the expense of the middle class in the USA, and the poor class in Mexico.

NAFTA was good when people here were very poor and were drawn to maquiladoras, abandoning their fields to do so. Now when the US has found cheaper labor marked and it is moving the maquiladoras else where, the Mexicans are left without jobs, and the field have been left to die for a long time, and will take as long or longer to recover from the abandonment.

So in the meantime, you will have all these starving people jumping the walls of the USA in order to feed their families.

bournemouth

May 15, 2005, 12:36 PM

Post #55 of 67 (1596 views)

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Re: [ignacio] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Most of the jobs that are being offshored have nothing to do with Nafta - they are going to Asian countries. Mexico is suffering the loss of maquiladoras to Asia. We have Swedish friends whose company moved their maquila plant to India and China - they went home to Sweden and retired early but the local workers lost their jobs. Some maquilas are beginning to return to Mexico as the cost of shipping and the time spent in transit are making the differential between Mexican and Asian wages less attractive. To say that offshored jobs are the result of Nafta is not accurate at this time.

esperanza

May 15, 2005, 3:04 PM

Post #56 of 67 (1569 views)

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Re: [johanson] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Here is what people are reading about the Mexican 'threat'. The rhetoric is designed to inflame. The rhetoric is inaccurate at best and out-and-out lies at worst. Please bear in mind that although the site title is 'usborderpatrol', the site is in no way sponsored by or linked in any way to the US Border Patrol.

http://www.usborderpatrol.com/borderframe1301.htm

Look at the pictures of the wall that is currently in place in California. Compare that wall--and that website--to what's written on the plaque at the feet of the Statue of Liberty. Emma Lazarus: 'Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door.'

Does the USA no longer believe in that message? Which shall it tear down, the plaque--or the barriers?

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

(This post was edited by esperanza on May 15, 2005, 3:52 PM)

Bubba

May 15, 2005, 3:45 PM

Post #57 of 67 (1557 views)

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Re: [esperanza] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Esperanza:

I think I recognize some of the language used in that "border patrol" web site. Now I remember, the Tuscaloosa chapter of the Ku Klux Klan circa 1962. This sort of jingoistic and racist scare mongering is familiar to any southerner over the age of 60. Fun stuff and what's really fun is that it works over time and can breed violence and hatred that can take generations to heal.

Now I know I'm staying down here.

ignacio

May 16, 2005, 9:58 AM

Post #58 of 67 (1502 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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What I said is that the loss of jobs started, as predicted by Ross Perot, with NAFTA, and continues now a days with the off-shoring of jobs...... thus impacting the purchasing power of the middle class USA. Is this better ?

manda405

May 16, 2005, 10:53 AM

Post #59 of 67 (1478 views)

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Re: [cuerva] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Let me ask this: When was the last time that a Mexican strapped a bomb to himself and walked into a crowed plaza? When was the last time a Mexican hijacked an airplane and killed 5000 people?

The US Department of Homeland Security is wasting time and money on all their ridiculas ideas to "secure the US-Mexico border".
So what if Mexicans want to come here to work and make a better life for their families? Who else is going to clean the toliets in the offices, harvest the apples, pack the potatoes? I can't think of one American who would break his back in the feild all day. Yet everyone complains that Mexicans are taking jobs away from the Americans. When it comes to social services such as medical aid and the likes, I know far more Americans on State Aide than any other nationality. Maybe the Mexicans that work here are sending money back home to Mexico, but they are also helping the US economy by buying things in the mean time, like electronics, cars, clothes, food.
Did everyone forget how this country came about? People came here to make a better life for their families. Why is everyone so against offering that opportunity to others?

Yes I agree that there needs to be a way to secure our borders to protect our people. But the Mexicans are not the ones posing a threat to national security.

What happens down in Mexico...Stays in Mexico.

Ed and Fran

May 16, 2005, 11:00 AM

Post #60 of 67 (1470 views)

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Re: [manda405] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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When was the last time that a Mexican strapped a bomb to himself and walked into a crowed plaza?...... Mexicans are not the ones posing a threat to national security.

Apart from the immigration or work question regarding Mexicans entering the U.S., I believe the "homeland security" reason for tightening the border isn't that they are concerned about Mexican terrorists, but that they are concerned that terrorists from other countries could enter Mexico and then cross the border to the U.S.

Regards

Ed

Marta R

May 16, 2005, 12:15 PM

Post #61 of 67 (1456 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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There may indeed be some valid "security" reasons for securing the border -- although we should remember that actual captured accused terrorists entered not from Mexico but from Canada, and I don't hear anybody talking about erecting a wall along the US-Canadian border.

I further suspect that this is yet another smoke-screen tossed up in an effort to distract us from the fact that Osama bin Forgotten.

Marta

Ed and Fran

May 16, 2005, 12:45 PM

Post #62 of 67 (1444 views)

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Re: [chrisnmarta] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Marta: There may indeed be some valid "security" reasons for securing the border -- although we should remember that actual captured accused terrorists entered not from Mexico but from Canada, and I don't hear anybody talking about erecting a wall along the US-Canadian border.

You're right.

I just want to mention that I neglected to say in my previous post that I question the "validity" of the reasoning, it was just purely a comment regarding whether the U.S. was thinking about Mexican terrorists.

Ed

MARIA CUERVA

May 16, 2005, 1:00 PM

Post #63 of 67 (1441 views)

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Re: [manda405] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Actually my cousin who lives in California is a social worker. That probably qualifies as the work nobody wants to do.

gpk

May 16, 2005, 1:01 PM

Post #64 of 67 (1440 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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No country, with or without walls, can keep out terrorists. The US CIA has a presence in virtually every country on earth.

MARIA CUERVA

May 16, 2005, 1:14 PM

Post #65 of 67 (1431 views)

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Re: [chrisnmarta] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Your ideas are oh so FAB. Don't you remember Arnie in PREDATOR with the aliens hunting the humans? That is one of my favorite movies.
There are romantic reactionaries on both sides of the border. Neither Ralph Nader nor sub-commandante Marcos has the answer though they are doing an amazing job of talking about what everyone else is afraid to talk about.
"LIVING IN AMERICA", sing along with me everyone!

Gringal

May 16, 2005, 5:13 PM

Post #66 of 67 (1388 views)

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Re: [esperanza] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Poor Emma Lazarus. She meant well, but most of our immigration practices haven't lined up with her sentiments. if the Atlantic and Pacific ponds weren't there, all our borders would be swarmed. What scenario would be going down if we shared a border with some of the African states where times are tragically hard, complete with the AIDS plague, genocide and mass starvation? If there were an ocean between the U.S. and Mexico, there wouldn't be an illegal immigration problem, but it's extremely difficult to build an ocean --so they come, and we take advantage of their desperation in the wages we pay.

The question of whether U.S. citizens would do the undesirable jobs is entirely relative to the safety nets we enjoy. During the "dust bowl" and Great Depression years before the helping hand of the state bailed out the unfortunate, people took any job they could get or begged for food. The California crops were harvested by folks immortalized by John Steinbeck, a man who was vilified in his farming hometown long before he was celebrated.

Since the problems we're discussing are economic, let's "follow the money". As we expats are living life on a level most of us couldn't afford where we came from, our concerns have a certain irony. The uncomfortable fact is that we are enjoying the advantages of Mexican poverty. If Mexico becomes so prosperous that its citizens can afford to stay home instead of heading over the border, we will be paying the price at the store and and in higher wages to our maids, gardeners and bricklayers. Maybe we won't be able to afford help. We'll be forking over more pesos to do lunch. Medical care will escalate. More Mexicans will finish high school and go on to higher education instead of going to work for low wages in their early teens. T-shirts will have sayings in Spanish. I'll be living poorer. That's progress.

Jerry@Ajijic

May 16, 2005, 8:42 PM

Post #67 of 67 (1337 views)

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Re: [cuerva] New immigration reforms- erecting of walls along the border

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Tony, this is a very interesting thread but is getting toooo long. Why not "lock" this one and start another one on the same topic? Jerry

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