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Adrian

May 9, 2005, 1:56 PM

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Rudeness Or Racism?

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In the spirit of enquiry, I would like to compare my own experience of certain aspects of the behaviour of la gente mexicana (a small minority, at least), with that of other readers.

I am sure that many of us have been overcharged, or short-changed, for goods and services, simply because of our whiteness. Was it done by the unscrupulous, thinking they could exploit our ignorance? Or was it done in the spirit of maliciousness, as a way to 'stick it to Whitey'. Was it racism or rudeness?

In similar vein, I have been spat at in the streets of downtown Tampico on more than three occasions. I am not speaking of a phlegmy hawking into the gutter near where I stood at that moment, but a full throat-load deposited vehemently at my very feet (and once actually upon my person) - and, on the most recent occasion, accompanied by a furtive mutter of, 'Pinche Gringo'. Rudeness or racism?

Today, in the market, an old man was blocking the passage alongside our store, chatting animatedly to friends. As I wished to pass by I politely asked, 'Con permiso, señor, por favor.' He turned and shoved me aside me with a cry of, 'Andalé! Gringo cabron!'. Rudeness or racism?

From what I can gather, there is a good deal of latent racist feeling in Mexico towards the darker-skinned. My guess is that there is not only an inversion of this amongst those folk but, additionally, a common hatred of the norteamericano - hence, 'pocho' as an insult.

Has anyone else experienced such treatment and wondered in what spirit it was meant? Or is someone going to tell me that either I deserved it or it was meant in a humourous manner?

Adrian

Miguel Palomares

May 9, 2005, 3:28 PM

Post #2 of 28 (4664 views)

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Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?

My, I've never had any of those things happen to me in the five years I've lived among the lovely Latinos. Of course, the fact that I tower over 99 percent of Mexicans may be a factor. I'd advise you get out of Tampico. It doesn't sound like a nice place.

I think when you get charged too much, it's neither rudeness nor racism, it's opportunism.

Gringo cabron? I'd label that rudeness.

While Mexicans, like all people all over the world (with individual exceptions) are racist to varying degrees, I'd label all of your other bad experiences as rudeness.

My observation is that rudeness is a solid part of the Mexican culture. I define courtesy as showing consideration for the feelings of others. Except for family members and friends, I don't see much of that going on. Quite the contrary.

When Mexicans here, usually ignorant, radical youngsters, say bad things to Gringo strangers, I believe it's a manifestation of the love/hate relationship Mexico has long had with the U.S. Also, when you have somebody to blame your problems on, you don't have to look in the mirror.

But, anyway, I'd advise you to sell the store and go to Michoacan or (yipes!) San Miguel.
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

Gringal

May 9, 2005, 4:09 PM

Post #3 of 28 (4641 views)

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Re: [palomares] Rudeness Or Racism?

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I'll bet you just knew somebody would jump on that "Yipes" San Miguel. Do you think there could be some lively action with a thread on "Why did you choose the town you live in?" (I will admit that Yipesanmiguel has a certain ring to it.)

More on topic: Bad behavior; rudeness; racism probably all begin with a self-absorbed conviction that one's belly button is the center of the universe. It's a no-win situation if someone spits on you. What would be an appropriate reaction to that, anyway? It's hard to "turn the other cheek" when it's happening, but who wants to start a war, either? What to do? I'm curious about what others think.

MG Rabon

May 9, 2005, 7:57 PM

Post #4 of 28 (4575 views)

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Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?

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Wow! I've never been treated like that. People in Mexico have always treated me politely and with respect. I've never been called a 'Gringo' by a Mexican either, at least not to my face. I'm really confused, what do you think caused them to single you out as a 'gringo'? It sure isn't a color thing, I've met many Mexicans white enough to be from Seattle. Usually (before I speak at any rate) I'm not perceived as a 'gringo' but rather a Mexican of Spanish decent.

As for being overcharged - Most things don't seem to have a 'set' price, they charge for them what they think you can (or will) pay. Opportunism, I'll agree with that. If it's a big purchase or you really feel that they quoted you an over-the-top price, send one of your mozzos in to see what price they are quoted. I feel that although sometimes I may pay a little more than someone of more modest means (or perhaps darker skin) that I've gotten a commensurately higher level of service, or quality of product that offsets it. When I was quoted a higher price for blocks than my mozzo was I thought I was being ripped off, but as it turned out they knew that I would have higher quality expectations than my impoverished looking mozzo, and therefore quoted me the price for first-quality blocks instead of irregular ones.

Three different occasions, I'm stumped - are you doing something out of the ordinary to draw undue attention to yourself? Maybe you tip like a Canadian (no offense) and word has gotten around? ;-)

Everywhere I go people treat me like a king, that is one of the things I LOVE about Mexico.

I'll be sure to mark your area off of my list.

Compórtate bien, y si no puedes, invítame!
MG Rabon

Marlene

May 9, 2005, 9:30 PM

Post #5 of 28 (4539 views)

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Quote

are you doing something out of the ordinary to draw undue attention to yourself? Maybe you tip like a Canadian (no offense) and word has gotten around? ;-)

What a strange thought. I am willing to bet there is not one person in Mexico who has ever been spit on for their tipping habits. Sheesh.

Miguel Palomares

May 10, 2005, 5:47 AM

Post #6 of 28 (4498 views)

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Re: [gringal] Rudeness Or Racism?

Yeah, I have fun with the San Miguel Ladies. There seems to be something in the air over there that makes you all really sensitive. Maybe, it's just your artistic personalities. But I´ve never had anybody be rude to me there. In person, that is. Now, we're back on the topic. Wink

From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/

(This post was edited by palomares on May 10, 2005, 5:59 AM)

Uncle Jack

May 10, 2005, 6:41 AM

Post #7 of 28 (4480 views)

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Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?

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Adrian;

I have been coming to Mexico on a regular basis since 1958. I have lived here full time for 2 years. As long as I conducted myself like a decent, civilized human being, I have never encountered the kind of disrespect you describe.

I do not know you, and have no idea how you relate to the Mexican people. If the incidences you mention really happened, I would seriously re-evaluate my own behavior or most certainly consider a change in my place of residence.

uj

donwilliston

May 10, 2005, 7:38 AM

Post #8 of 28 (4457 views)

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Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?

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Adrian, your spitting description makes me wonder if we live in different Mexicos. The last time I was in Tampico (2 years ago) I got lost and people went out of their way to help. I did not get a single hint of racism.

I’ve traveled Mexico for 50 years and lived here (in Mazatlán) full time for over 3 years and the acts of helpfulness and kindness outnumber the acts of rudeness by at least 1000 to 1.

On the other hand, let me relate a story. Not long ago I was drinking beer with a young Mexican national and he mentioned that he liked gringos but that we are willing to pay so much that prices are rising to the point that he can not afford a house near the beach. Not racism – simple economics.

Allow me another story – now this one is 30 years old.
One early morning I was walking with a Mexican friend along the beach as the oyster divers were shoving off for the day's work. For some reason we stopped at one boat just to watch the preparation. My friend couldn't help but ask questions.

"How deep do you dive?", "How long do you stay down?", "How do you know where to go?", "Did your family always dive for oysters?", and so on. My friend was asking so many questions that I was becoming embarrassed. But then…

"Come with me" said the diver. I'll show you. Wow! We got in his boat and rowed out into the bay. And then he started diving. Now, I've always been a strong swimmer and very good at staying underwater but this experience was extreme! He'd dive for a whole minute or more and come up (with oysters) for only three or four breaths. Then back down. It wasn't long before I realized that alternate dives were the better part of valor. But this barrel shaped Indian just kept diving like this all day.

At days end we were all tired (even the Mexican who did three times the work that I could manage). We rowed slowly back to the beach where a big guy in a straw hat and a Texas accent pointed at the diver and shouted "Hay boy, come here. I want some scallops". He waggled a finger as if to demand that the diver walk to him.

"I'm sorry sir, there are no scallops in this bay." Said the diver.
The fat man with the straw hat then said in a superior voice "Maybe you don't understand. I'll pay."
The Mexican diver just said "No sir, I have no scallops, I'm very sorry and I'm sure you are very generous."
The disgruntled ugly gringo stomped away in disgust.

We helped the diver haul his boat up high on the beach, thanked him for a great day and turned to walk back to our tents. Then the little barrel shaped diver said "You guys want some scallops, I got a lot today."

It’s not racism and sometimes it’s not even economic – it’s personal.

---
"It's good enough to be true" Gracie Maurahan 1970
---

bournemouth

May 10, 2005, 8:15 AM

Post #9 of 28 (4435 views)

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Re: [palomares] Rudeness Or Racism?

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Palomares - as you took the thread off topic, allow me to continue. I find your attitude towards the San Miguel folk unpleasant, not funny. If it provokes responses, I'm sure that was your intent. I have no connection with San Miguel, other than having visited at various times so have no vested interest in defending the people there.

Esteban

May 10, 2005, 8:27 AM

Post #10 of 28 (4428 views)

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While sitting at a bar, across from the beach in Mazatlan, one of the street car washers walked by our table and pushed for some spare change. I said that I didn't have any now but maybe tomorrow (my Mexican friends use this excuse). He
was fairly toasted but managed to muster up a few expletives directed at our table. He also hassled a few prominent Mexican politicos nearby.....big mistake. The next day he apparently fell off a high curb and slammed his face on the pavement. It must have done something to his brain because he NEVER again even talked with anyone as he passed through the restaurant unless he was spoken to. And, if spoken to, he was VERY polite.

I've been out to some colonias that are considered dangerous and one time, was yelled at while in my car with my Mexican neighbor. He wanted to go back and confront the young man but I opted for a turn the other cheek approach.

My biggest negative encounters, in Mexico, have been with gringos (I don't consider it a bad word). They ran out on bills, got drunk and went ballistic; one even spit on the contadora of a bar, they got mad because I wouldn't make hotel reservations for them, they wouldn't talk to me for months because of my political views (but then that was rather pleasant) and I could name more but they are too personal to mention.

not_ally

May 10, 2005, 9:00 AM

Post #11 of 28 (4409 views)

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Re: [Esteban] Rudeness Or Racism?

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I've experienced/seen very few incidents of rudeness from Mexicans compared to the numbers from Norteamericanos, especially in everyday matters (passing on the street, etc.)
----------------------------
"The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly I discover there is no reason." John Cage

MARIA CUERVA

May 10, 2005, 9:03 AM

Post #12 of 28 (4408 views)

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Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?

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I'm thinking there's more to this story that you're not telling us. Your involvement , I mean. What did you do?

Marlene

May 10, 2005, 10:01 AM

Post #13 of 28 (4379 views)

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Re: [donwilliston] Rudeness Or Racism?

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Don, The scallop story is a great point in this thread. This is a display of fierce Mexican pride and is much more prevalent than most foreigners are aware. You see, they don't always want our dollars especially at the expense of vile treatment. An incident comes to mind as one example, something that we witness all too often.

We were helping a foreign couple to find a home rental, and the whole deal went sideways quite simply because of extreme bad manners, rude behavior and boorish comments. My husband was translating because the landlady wasn't fluent in English, and the foreigners knew no Spanish.

He had wrongly assumed that this woman would be honored to rent to him and being rude was his own special way of bargaining. Imagine this mans surprise when she turned to my husband and said she had no intention of renting to this rude gringo at any price. (Unfortunately for him, she understood English quite well, as it turned out). He had completely insulted not only her, but the Mexican culture in general by things he said or alluded to. Needless to say, my husband had been embarrassed as well, after trying his best to translate rude comments made by this vile man into somewhat acceptable comments.

The moral to this story is two-fold. Foreigners should never assume that Mexicans are desperate for their money. AND many Mexicans understand English even if they never speak it and don't let on, so making comments as if they are invisible is a BIG mistake. Pride is huge in this culture.

(This post was edited by Marlene on May 10, 2005, 10:03 AM)

Gringal

May 10, 2005, 11:16 AM

Post #14 of 28 (4349 views)

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I'm sorry to hear you had some bad experiences and it's not surprising you are wondering about the reasons. Along with the useful input, I've noticed that the forums sometimes drift into "slice and dice " or "blame the victim" mode. Some participants jump directly to their favorite assumptions. Some just took too many ornery pills. Ignore them. What I heard you say was that you were behaving yourself politely and got a nasty word, shove or spit in response. Racism or rudeness or both. Some people out there have had bad treatment from gringos and are taking it out on whoever they encounter. The good news is that they are the minority. You might as well hang in there in Tampico. Bungholes are everywhere. Some are visitors; some are homegrown. There is also the possibility that a special spot on the planet breeds and ships them all over so that the world won't seem too much like paradise. Personally, I've had at least 90% good experiences here in Mexico and I'll settle for that percentage. Just lucky, I guess.

alex .

May 10, 2005, 12:14 PM

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Re: [Marlene] I had a similar experience:

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http://mexconnected.com/...forum.cgi?post=35237

(This post was edited by alex . on May 10, 2005, 12:18 PM)

talosian

May 10, 2005, 12:40 PM

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Rudeness or Racism? I would say a combination of both, and the reasons are as varied as the people involved.

Since everyone has a story, I'll tell my quick one:

I needed 15 items welded (I had the material). I went to one Mexican welder in Chapala and he told me $450p per item (no language confusion). Now I knew this was more than I would pay in the U.S. I thanked him and went price shopping, went to Ajijic and talked to the Blacksmith/Welder; $350p each. Went a few door down and saw a welding outfit, explained what I wanted and showed a picture. Price to weld all 15 - - - $500p. Not each, total price.

There was no question in my mind, I had been "Gringo priced" by the first two welders. So how much did the first two welders make off me? Nada.

And I make sure I don't tell any tradeperson I live in Vista del Lago.

For whatever it's worth - - - - simple greed and figuring "what the traffic will bare."
"When all logical explanations have failed, we must look to the illogical for the answer.

Esteban

May 10, 2005, 1:13 PM

Post #17 of 28 (4291 views)

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Re: [talosian] Rudeness Or Racism?

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Having been a tradesman in the US, quoting a high price may be indicative of how much you want to work or what your workload consists of at the time. Sometimes, I'd put a high price on someone because I expected problems. It's not always a matter of feeding your family or making enough for a new toy. There are many reasons to charge high prices and racism is only one of MANY. Personally, I don't trust any fundamentalist religious person. Just one of my prejudices and where I'd charge more than double! :-) Sorry if I offended anyone.

not_ally

May 10, 2005, 1:15 PM

Post #18 of 28 (4291 views)

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Re: [talosian] Rudeness Or Racism?

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I don't think that price-setting based on gringo-ness is either racism or rudeness, it's just a function of the market. In a place where the prices aren't set, why shouldn't people get as much as they can for their goods/services? In the US that's called the free hand of capitalism.

I purchase a lot of construction related goods/services and usually try to negotiate prices by doing some diligence on what stuff generally costs and then asking people to give me bids at a discounted rate, based on increased volumes, if it's appropriate.
----------------------------
"The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly I discover there is no reason." John Cage

julietl

May 10, 2005, 1:51 PM

Post #19 of 28 (4271 views)

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I worked for a year and a half at an advertising agency here in Mexico City. There was this guy whom I HAD to work with who was so mean to me. A every opportunity he could he would put down the US, Americans, whatever, in front of me. He made my life hell, and I would come home so sad or pissed off all the time. It was especially bad after I got to know DF slang and really understood what he was saying about me. I tried so hard to be nice and work peacefully with him, but finally just gave up.

The wierd thing was, he had never been to the US. And his last name, I found out, is Perez, but he went by Falconi, I guess to sound Italian? What's up with that??

Another thing about him is that I am definately not exactly a flag-wavin' gung-ho Rambo American type. We probably have very similar ideas about politics and social issues, but he never gave me a chance - just couldn't get past my "US-ness". Guilty by birthplace, as I am sure alot of Mexicans feel in the workplace when they work in the US.

Ugh, I sat at his table last weekend at a wedding and yep, he kept changing the conversation to Bush, pinche gringos, whatever....especially after a bunch (like 10) Tequila/Squirts. He has a big chip on his shoulder.

Thankfully he has been the only one that was so overt. All of my friends are Mexican and I have never had any other problems living here.

About the money thing, I always have my boyfriend call any service people, such as contractors, car repairs, etc...it was his idea and I think it has saved us some money.
___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________

(This post was edited by julietm on May 10, 2005, 2:00 PM)

viejogatomalo

May 10, 2005, 2:20 PM

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Re: [Marlene] Rudeness Or Racism?

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As an elderly Americano and living in Chapala, the only negative occurances I have had, have been with very rude, arrogant and condescending gringos. I cannot think of any Mexicanos treating me in any way badly...other than the Zorros on the carreterra......
Richard

Adrian

May 10, 2005, 2:21 PM

Post #21 of 28 (4242 views)

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Can Open! Worms Everywhere! (Was: Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?)

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Well, that certainly aroused some strong reactions! By way of response (and thanks to those who added to this thread), I would offer the following...

Firstly, a personal clarification.
I am a 41 year old British white male. 6' tall, 200Lbs. Dressed for work in shirt & jeans and walking to the market in Tampico at 7.45AM, I do not look remarkable. I never push in to a line of folk waiting for service. I do not crowd the sidewalk and I always ask 'con permiso' if I wish to pass by someone.

Secondly, a general clarification.
My Mexican wife and I own a store in the Tampico central market. The market is quite a rough place and caters towards the poorer majority of this city. I open the store at 8.00AM daily and may be seen scrubbing the frontage and setting out the stock displays. I am not a 'huevon' or 'flojo' who expects his employees to do these things whilst I stand regally at the cash register.

Thirdly, my opinion.
I believe that the vast majority of la gente are kind, decent folk. There is a very small minority who seem to think that they can publicly express their dislike of white, non-mexicans and, interestingly, it is the older folk who seem to act in this way - perhaps because they are sure that I would not say or do anything. I was appalled by the expectoration directed at me but I do not personally think it exhibits a racist tendency - it is simply maleducado.

Fourthly, a contrast.
However, were we to hear of a black American being spat at in Seattle (for example) by a white person and called a 'dirty nigger', we would be rightly outraged - we probably would not suggest that he had, somehow, brought it upon himself or that he should move away from that area. So why is there not a similar standard to my having to take a similar insult?

Fifthly, insult? What insult?
The word, 'Gringo' can be, and is, used in Mexico as a pejorative - anyone who says otherwise is a fool. Several posters alluded to the love-hate relationship with the USA (or 'gringolandia') and partially Americanised Mexicans are routinely insulted as 'pochos'. I believe that white, non-mexicans (WNMs) are all considered American by la gente until proved otherwise and the love-hate relationship is what drives their initial contact with WNMs.

Conclusion
Cultural issues around 'machismo'; the tortured relationship with the USA; an anti-intellectualism that takes peverse pride in being 'maleducado' - all of these things can contribute towards a negative attitude to WNMs. Racist? probably not...but there's no sure way of telling.

As an aside on the overcharging issue:
Several posters made the point of shopping around to find the best VFM, or excused different prices for WNMs on the basis that this was a function of Capitalism. Shopping around and avoiding those places that seem to charge higher prices for WNMs - absolutely. A function of Capitalism? Not if you wish to stay in business for very long...which is why the price is clearly marked in the first place. Any store that does not clearly mark its prices is not a store I wish to do business with.

That's all folks! Tampico's a lovely place, really - ask Ed & Fran!

Adrian

MARIA CUERVA

May 10, 2005, 2:38 PM

Post #22 of 28 (4224 views)

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Re: [Adrian] Can Open! Worms Everywhere! (Was: Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?)

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I have to ask the obvious question, what does your Mexican wife say?

Bubba

May 10, 2005, 4:17 PM

Post #23 of 28 (4189 views)

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Re: [Adrian] Can Open! Worms Everywhere! (Was: Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?)

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OK, Adrian:

Now I understand. You are a foreign merchant in the rough oil town of Tampico - an ugly and hardscrabble place with a dreadful climate and a frontier mentality. A place where the local attitude has been modified by exposure to the worst of foreign capitalistic aggressive behavior by other commercial opportunists and you may have screwed some local supplier to the wall so his assessment of you is that you are a "pinche gringo" and he has prevailed upon his friend to spit upon you at his first opportunity and your having married a Mexican person may have worked against you rather that for for you depending upon the circumstances. This is a complicated matter.

Most of us down here are not engaged in regular commerce at the village level so we may not empathize with your gut experience but I must say that your extolling yourself as a tall person relative to your local townspeople tells me you have an attitude problem of your own. If you assess that towering physically over those with whom you must normally interact creates hostility then you may be right but the reasons for that hostility may be beyond your understanding.

I have lived here for over four years and have never met with overt hostility from Mexicans of any class. The only hostility I have met with has been from elderly gringos with adolescent minds who migrated here and brought their attiudes with them. We should lament the open borders heading south rather than north.

Carron

May 10, 2005, 4:19 PM

Post #24 of 28 (4187 views)

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Re: [Adrian] Can Open! Worms Everywhere! (Was: Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?)

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Perhaps when the locals observed you doing the sweeping out front (which Mexicans would expect to see another Mexican rather than a foreigner doing), they thought you were taking such traditional jobs away from natives who needed the work more than you?? Or that you were trying to show you could do the job better??

Bear

May 10, 2005, 4:53 PM

Post #25 of 28 (4172 views)

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Re: [Carron] Can Open! Worms Everywhere! (Was: Re: [Adrian] Rudeness Or Racism?)

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April 26, 2005
Your question has been answered.

(This post was edited by frank fundaro on May 10, 2005, 4:55 PM)

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