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bdlngton

Feb 26, 2005, 4:58 PM

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Tu preterite form

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Does anybody know where the use of -astes and -istes on the ending of verbs in tú form in preterite developed? I've heard it a lot from Mexicans and on one of my Jose Feliciano CDs he very clearly uses -astes. I never heard this used in Colombia. I know the correct endings are -aste and -iste. I wonder if this is a something that derived from vosotros endings. To my ear it sounds uneducated and akin to someone saying "I seen" instead of "I saw" in English. I'd love to hear others' experience with these endings.
Susy



jerezano

Feb 26, 2005, 8:30 PM

Post #2 of 16 (6213 views)

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Re: [bdlngton] Tu preterite form

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Hello Susy,

I would dearly love to visit Columbia and listen to the Spanish down there. It must really be different from Mexican Spanish as you folks use the vos form all the time don't you? I understand the vos form is used all over South America [I hear it sometimes on soap operas produced in Argentina] but I have never heard whether you use the vosotros form to any extent. I understand the vos replaces the tú and you use the plural preterite verb with it? As in: ¿Vos lo escuchasteis? where we would say ¿Tú lo escuchaste? Strange.

Yet back in the 80's I had a teacher from Equador and she used tú with the correct preterite verb forms all the time. She never once used vos in my classes.

Anyway, the aste and iste are actually very correct Spanish and have been in use for centuries both in Spain and its former colonies. The verb tirar for example, Yo tiré, tú tiraste, él/ella/Ud. tiró, nosotros tiramos, vosotros tirasteis [this form is never used in Mexico just as the vos form is never used]. ellos/ellas/Uds. tiraron. Did the folks in Columbia use the vosotros form at all?

Go to any basic Spanish grammar and look at the preterite and you will find all the basic forms explained except the vos form which I understand is a very formal hangover from medieval times. ¡Que barbaridad que se suene inculto escuchar la forma correcta despues de escuchar una forma diferente. ¿Cuánto tiempo pasaste tú allá en Columbia?

Tal vez el Sr. Quevedo tenga mejor explicación.

¡Bienvenido a México! Jerezano


esperanza

Feb 26, 2005, 10:45 PM

Post #3 of 16 (6206 views)

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Re: [bdlngton] Tu preterite form

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Susy, the form preterite endings -astes and - istes are colloquialisms and are just as incorrect as you think they are. Suenan muy del monte, although they are certainly common all over Mexico, including in the big cities. I'm piqued by your mention of the possibility of their evolution through the vosotros form--that theory sure sounds good, at least in terms of pronunciation. My suspicion is that -astes and -istes are just colloquial custom, however.

During the course of a long conversation this evening with my dear friend here in Guadalajara, she brought up this very subject. We were talking about the difference between educación and estudios (she has a lot of both--brought up properly in Tepic, she has a maestría in teaching). Paty talked at length and with disappointment about the incorrect usage of -astes and -istes by many Mexicans both here and in the United States and how that usage bastardizes Spanish and gives listeners the correct impression that the language is frequently butchered by native speakers.

Don Quevedo, ¿en dónde andas?

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









(This post was edited by esperanza on Feb 26, 2005, 11:17 PM)


bdlngton

Feb 26, 2005, 10:58 PM

Post #4 of 16 (6205 views)

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Re: [jerezano] Tu preterite form

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Jerezano--
In my experience vos is not used in Colombia. I lived and worked there for over a year, then married a Colombian. We divorced after 13 years of marriage, during which we made various trips back to Colombia. Colombian Spanish is generally considered the purest Spanish in Latin America but it certainly has its regional accents and vocabulary. I have also studied in Peru and never heard vos there either. From what I understand, vos is only used in Argentina. Generally vosotros is not used in South America either, though I've read that among the elite of some countries it is used because they believe it makes one sound more educated.
As to my question about the tu form in the preterite, I am a Spanish teacher so know and use the correct endings. My question really was if anyone knew why the -aste and -iste are often used with a final -s by some Mexicans. If there is a historical reason why this is done. And is it viewed as uneducated in Mexico much like educated English speakers would view someone who said I seen rather than I saw as not well-educated.
Susy


bdlngton

Feb 26, 2005, 11:33 PM

Post #5 of 16 (6201 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Tu preterite form

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I've wondered about this usage for a long time as I hear it so much from the Mexicans here in the US. In fact I was talking with one of my heritage speaker students recently and mentioned something about -astes and -istes not being correct, to which she replied "They're not correct???" i had to pull out a Spanish dictionary to show her the correct tu endings.
I was at Wal-mart here in Vancouver today and there was a Mexican family behind me at the check stand. The older girl was showing the father a picture of the baby that she had just taken in the arcade section. The father asked, "Donde la tomaste?" I was so expecting him to say "tomastes" that I did a double take when he used the correct form. So it brought it to mind again and I thought I'd ask.
I wonder if it started with uneducated trying to sound more educated by "imitating" the vosotros endings. Just a hypothesis. I'm not a language historian and suspect that you'd have to find someone who has done a lot of research on this to find the origins. Interesting, though, that you had this same conversation this very evening with a native speaker who was lamenting this very thing.
I wonder, too, if this error extends beyond Mexican Spanish. As I mentioned, I heard it on a Jose Feliciano CD, and he is Puerto Rican. I'll have to ask my amiga puertorriqueña about that. I never heard it in Colombia that I remember.
What I encounter as a non-native speaker who teaches Spanish is that my students will usually believe that the native speaker ALWAYS knows better than I do and that whay a native speaker uses has to be correct. We, of course, know that is not true, but try to convince a teenage that I might actually know more than a native speaker! And talk about butchering the language--my ears are assaulted every day by bad English from native speakers of English. The sad part is that group includes my principal!!
Susy


quevedo

Feb 28, 2005, 10:29 AM

Post #6 of 16 (6171 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Futuro correcto

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Estimada Esperanza y demás amigas y amigos del foro:

Este fin de semana, gracias a Dios, estuve en Isla Navidad. Un buen amigo me invitó a su casa y a pasear en su yate; a bucear y a comer rico. Nos divertimos mucho y la pasamos muy bien.

Revisé la discusión sobre las formas correctas e incorrectas del futuro coloquial, y creo que todo prácticamente se ha dicho: las formas correctas son, por supuesto, las que terminan en aste e iste; es muy posible que el vos sea responsable de la incorrecta costumbre de añadir una ese al final de estas terminaciones.

En 1995 pasé unos seis meses, de trabajo, en Colombia y viajé por buena parte del país: en general no se usa el vos por allá, como ya se mencionó aquí en el foro.

Linda semana a todo el mundo,

Quevedo


esperanza

Feb 28, 2005, 11:47 AM

Post #7 of 16 (6164 views)

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Re: [quevedo] Futuro correcto

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Solo que no es el futuro, es el pretérito (o sea, el pasado ya terminado).

Qué lindo fin de semana, Quevedo, paseándose en el mar hasta en yates. Bienvenido ya a tu vida más terrestre.

Unas amigas argentinas siempre me hablan de vos. Para mi, se oye muy bonito. Me gusta mucho.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Ed and Fran

Mar 1, 2005, 6:56 PM

Post #8 of 16 (6137 views)

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Re: [bdlngton] Tu preterite form

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Colombian Spanish is generally considered the purest Spanish in Latin America...



When I lived and worked in Venezuela, the locals told me that "they" spoke the purest Spanish in Latin America. In fact, several told me, in no uncertain manner, that they didn't speak Spanish, they spoke Castilian! Personally, I thought they butchered the language by cutting the ends off all the words. But then again I was used to Mexican Spanish so maybe it sounded strange just to me.


E(&F)


bdlngton

Mar 1, 2005, 8:48 PM

Post #9 of 16 (6132 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] Tu preterite form

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A couple of thoughts cam to mind.
1. Venezuelans would never admit Colombians did anything better than Venezuelans. That old neighborly rivalry often rears its head. And what are the two countries probably most competitive about? Not soccer, because although Colombians are soccer fanatics, Venezuelans play baseball more, which is insignificant in Colombian. No, anybody who has watched Miss Universe knows that Miss Colombia and Miss Venezuela are usually in the final 10, and beauty pagents are also national obsessions. :-)
2. As you noted, many Venezuelans have a typical Caribbean pronunciation. That is, the final S's are almost non-existent, and often S's in the middle of a word are dropped too. I have to admit that the Caribbean regions of Colombia do this too. I returned from Colombia saying "ma o meno" instead of "mas o menos." I have always said that there is a bank on some island in the Caribbeanwhere all of those unused S's are stored, and one day the vault is going to burst open and all we're going to hear from that part of the world is SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
3. When I studied in Peru and lived with a family there, I was told by Peruvians that Colombians speak the purest Spanish in South America and that Peru was #2. However, Peruvian Spanish (or Castellano as they called the language there) has infiltration from the native languages like Quechua, much like Mexican Spanish has from the native languages, especially Nahuatl.
4. I think referring to the language is as Castillian, or Castellano, is just a difference in vocabulary, not necessarily trying to to elevate one's language above Spanish. I encountered the same thing in Peru, and once in awhile in Colombia.
5. Colombian Spanish does not have influences from native languages that I can tell. Each region does have its accent and regional vocabulary, but I do think that it is one of the easier versions of Spanish to understand when spoken. I find Cuban Spanish very difficult because of all the dropped S's.
6. All of that said, as a Spanish teacher I believe every form of Spanish is equally valid and acceptable as long as it communicates. Of course the differences in vocabulary can lead to misunderstandings, sometimes very funny or embarrassing. I found myself on various occasions being the translator between my Colombian husband and Mexicans, both here in the US and in our travels in Mexico. But usually those things were involved around a single word. For example: tinto in Colombia is a black coffee, whereas tinto in Mexico would be a red wine. That vocab difference led to a confusing moment for our Mexican hostess when my husband requested a "tinto" just like he had at her home the day before. She didn't remember that she had served wine the day before. I, the gringa, had to explain to both of them what the other was thinking. Sometimes it is the non-native speaker, who has had more chance to travel or interact with Spanish speakers from various countries, who is more aware of the many varieties Spanish can come in than the native speaker who has not had the same experiences.

For me learning all these differences between Spanish (or Castellano, if you prefer) in one place and another is lots of fun. I do have to stop and think sometimes which word I need to use before I open my mouth or I end up doing something like I did in Ajijic in December when I used the word "mona" to refer to myself. I'm sure my listener was thinking "female monkey?" when I meant "blonde." Whereas Mexicans use the word "güero/a" to refer to a blond/e, Colombians call them "monos/as." (I understand güero/a comes from a Nahuatl word meaning foreigner/stranger.) I understand Venezuelans use the word "catiro/a" for blond/e. But the word "rubio/a" is understood by all of these native speakers, though it may not be what they commonly used. In Colombia a "mico/a" is a monkey and he had a real hard time calling Micaela, the Argentine exchange student at my school, Mica because it always felt to him like he was calling her a monkey.

Thanks for your reply. As I said, I find language fascinating and hope to learn more from this forum
Susy


Ed and Fran

Mar 2, 2005, 6:08 AM

Post #10 of 16 (6126 views)

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Re: [bdlngton] Tu preterite form

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Venezuelans would never admit Colombians did anything better than Venezuelans.

You've got that right.


I returned from Colombia saying "ma o meno" instead of "mas o menos."

I remember it well.


...these differences between Spanish (or Castellano, if you prefer)

No, I prefer to say Spanish.


Whereas Mexicans use the word "güero/a" to refer to a blond/e,

I'm not so sure that's Mexico wide. At least here in this area güero seems to be used to denote someone with light skin. They call me the güero, and I'm certainly not blonde. Rubio/a seems to be the preferred term for blonde around here.


...like I did in Ajijic in December when I used the word "mona" to refer to myself. I'm sure my listener was thinking "female monkey?" when I meant "blonde."

Must be something about the word "mono". One of the earliest embarrasing language moments between me and Fran sort of involved the same word. I was looking for a word for 'cute' and someone suggested 'mono'. Would have been okay if I had left it at that. But somewhere else I picked up 'chango' as a synonym for 'mono'. Unfortunately, it was for the 'monkey' meaning of the word. So when I said that Fran seemed "changa" you can understand that it wasn't one of my better moments. :-)


Regards

E(&F)


esperanza

Mar 2, 2005, 6:12 AM

Post #11 of 16 (6125 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] Tu preterite form

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Interesting point about chango/a. A friend from Honduras often uses that word in the same sense that Mexicans use catrín/a, meaning all gussied up and looking handsome/beautiful.

Mira no más, qué chango andas. ¿Con quién vas a salir?

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Ed and Fran

Mar 2, 2005, 6:30 AM

Post #12 of 16 (6124 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Tu preterite form

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Wow, great to know. I've got to show that to Fran. Just think, exoneration after all these years!!


Of course I don't live in Honduras, but it's the principle.


E(&F)


bdlngton

Mar 2, 2005, 11:41 AM

Post #13 of 16 (6111 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] Tu preterite form

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You are right about the use of "güero/a" meaning light-skinned. For me, being very fair, blonde, blue-eyed, it's a package deal! One of my first memories of Mexico is having "¡Guera!" hissed at me on the streets. Guess it was a piropo, but I always thought it funny that they felt compelled to tell me something that, obviously, I was plenty aware of.
Susy


bdlngton

Mar 2, 2005, 11:43 AM

Post #14 of 16 (6110 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] Tu preterite form

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It is good to know that somewhere in the hispanohablante world you are correct, even though the locals look at you like you were talking nonsense!
Susy


BrentB

Mar 2, 2005, 6:51 PM

Post #15 of 16 (6094 views)

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Re: [bdlngton] Tu preterite form

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In Guatemala, one hears a lot of "astes" and "istes" among the lesser educated. Maybe it is related to the use of vos,which I never had considered. Vos is being supplanted by the more universal (it seems) tu. I think this can be attributed to the influx of telenovelasand programs and recordings from Mexico and the rest of Latin America.

In Guatemala, they told me that they speak the purest Spanish, in Jalisco I was told the same. In Ecuador they said that also and that their accent was nuetral. In Spain, they say that they speak the best "Spanish", even in Catalonia and Galicia.
You have to go back to the pre-cable TV- cell phone days (pre-1970's) days in some small isolated villages in the Sangre de Cristo Mountains of New Mexico in the USA to find "pure Castillian" There, due to extreme isolation from, and no contact with the outer world, and no electricity, the language really hadn't evolved hardly at all, since the days of the conquest. The people didn't even fully realize that they were part of the USA. They didn't know what taxes were either (nor war). They got electricity, then radio and cable etc, and all that has changed. They probably speak Spanglish now.


Marta R

Mar 3, 2005, 12:49 PM

Post #16 of 16 (6078 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] Tu preterite form

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My grandmother and mother visited Cuba (from Yucatan) in the 1920s: my abuelita was outraged because a vendor yelled "Culos! Culitos!" at them. It was, apprently, some kind of edible.

Fastforward decades, and my mother became aquainted with a woman from South America (I misremember where exactly -- I was a kid and didn't pay attention to such things). This woman used a verb in connection with ripping the hem of her skirt that I was taught never, never, never even to think of in polite society.

Of course, one isn't supposed to say "fanny" in Scotland, either.

Marta
 
 
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