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VSOP

Feb 14, 2005, 8:10 AM

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Cats

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I'm sticking my neck out here, but looking for some honest answers. A previous poster mentioned that she has 5 cats which is prompting my query.

One thing that is discouraging to us about moving to Ajijic is the fact that many people there over several years have told us of the loss of their cats due to poisoning. Some have said that poisoned meat was maliciously thrown over the walls into their courtyards where their cats (and dogs) ate it.

On a recent trip to Ajijic, however, it was explained to us differently. Due to the peaking of populations of rats and mice in the springtime, people put out poison for the rats and mice. These then become sick and are caught by the cats (inside their own courtyards) who subsequently die.

The lady at the B&B where we stayed had her own cats in a special, huge, cage build over one balcony. While this is certainly a creative solution, we would hope that our cats could have a bit more freedom.

Can anyone shed any light on this subject and offer possible solutions other than the obvious one of staying where it is NOT a problem. Also, is this situation prevalent all over Mexico?


No hay rosas sin espinas . . .

Jean

Feb 14, 2005, 3:52 PM

Post #2 of 24 (2811 views)

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Re: [VSOP] Cats

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Animals being poisoned happens. It is always a worry. I heard of it too many times. One of the B&B's there put out rat poison and if a cat wanders in and eats it...well....

Our cat does not go outdoors so it was not a worry, but it was a constant fear with our dogs.

Creative ideas for your cats will be needed.

Jean
Retirement Communities
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janamex

Feb 20, 2005, 9:59 AM

Post #3 of 24 (2717 views)

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Re: [Jean] Cats

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So somehow in my research I missed all talk of dog poisoning! Is this a big problem? Burglary of possessions is one thing but I do not want to put my dog at risk. Like VSOP, I would like to know if this is a problem in all parts of Mexico. Are some areas of Lakeside less likely to have this problem than others? My move is only a few months away and my overly-large, overly-friendly, still-young-and-not-terribly-bright canine pal is coming with me. Any suggestions? More information, please.

Ed and Fran

Feb 20, 2005, 5:46 PM

Post #4 of 24 (2682 views)

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Re: [janamex] Cats

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It's probably easier with a dog. You want a fence to keep him in your own yard, and just walk him on a leash. It's harder to fence a outdoors cat in (short of using a cage).

Yes it's a problem in other parts of Mexico too.



Ed

PeggyS

Feb 21, 2005, 2:24 AM

Post #5 of 24 (2661 views)

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Re: [Ed and Fran] Cats

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Like Pete J., our house had high walls, and yet poisoned meat was thrown over to kill any animals living there. Just for the fun of it, we figured, as the dogs were small and quiet. Our neighbor on the right side, Norman Burton the movie actor (see IMDB for a list of his appearances) first lost a terrier puppy that ate some meat on his garage floor and died instantly. His housekeeper saw it happen but couldn't get there in time. So he adopted a puppy, walked it to the beach every day, loved it very much ..... and poisoned meat was thrown over his wall one day, and the puppy died.
We had a neighbor on our left side who adopted a dear little dog. It never barked, never ran in the road, never bothered anyone. Such a sweet little thing, and we all loved it. One Sunday afternoon, we heard the most awful screams .... someone had thrown poisoned meat over the wall, and the little one was dying a horrible death. The vet came immediately and did his best, but the agonizing screams lasted until sundown, when the puppy finally died.
Our neighbor adopted another puppy, but told us shortly afterward that the friendly Mexican neighbors had warned him that it would happen again, so he found a friend with a farm who would adopt the little one, so he now has no dog.
Ask Belva, she lost her adored pet because her neighbors put out poisoned meat for the "rats", not considering that peoples' dogs and cats, their beloved animals, might eat the stuff.
In my years in Ajijic, I have seen ONE cat, which belongs to the people across the street. It goes out to sun itself, and then is taken inside.
Our dear little dog escaped all the poisoned meat controversy, as did our Siamese, and they are back in Florida after our years in Mexico ........oh Thank God !!!!
Like Jean and her husband, who moved back to Canada, and so many others, we could not take the lack of animal care and caring in Mexico. People like Anita are wonderful, and then you have the ones who couldn't care less what happens to animals, and think it's rather fun to put out poisoned meat.
Again, thank God we're out of Mexico after all these years.

viejogatomalo

Feb 21, 2005, 6:23 AM

Post #6 of 24 (2644 views)

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Re: [PeggyS] Cats

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I once watched a program on KQED showing an animal welfare agency in Monterey County, Calif doing their perodic çleaning house'of unwanted, stray, and abandoned animals. It actually showed them injecting the animals and killing them....hundreds of them. It would seem that there is not much difference....killing is killing.
If, in fact, one should have such concern then it would seem appropriate to volunteer ones services to those persons who are trying to help, ie Anita in Lakeside.
Mexico is a wonderful country. Because it does not have the financial resources to hide away this ugly aspect of life as is done in USA does not take away from the things that make it dear to those of us who live here.
Perhaps those who live in glass houses.........?
Richard

janamex

Feb 21, 2005, 7:10 AM

Post #7 of 24 (2630 views)

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Re: [PeggyS] Cats

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I have to ask : In what area were you living when all this poisoning happened with your neighbors? Is it possible that it was all the work of one malicious person (or am I being overly optimistic?) Has everyone else had similar experiences? I'm aware that I cannot expect the same attitude toward animals there that exists NOB but deliberate poisoning.....?

esperanza

Feb 21, 2005, 7:57 AM

Post #8 of 24 (2618 views)

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Re: [janamex] Cats

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Although I now live in Guadalajara, I lived for six years in the heart of the old village of Ajijic. Exactly one year ago, all three of my indoor/outdoor cats were poisoned--not on my Ajijic property, but somewhere in their nightly travels. I think I know where, but there is no proof.

The poison, according to the vet, was strychnine. My gardener found a little mound of cat vomit in the grass that afternoon; in the mound was the head-half of a charal (a tiny fish much eaten in Mexico). The gardener and I concluded that someone had deliberately put poison on the fish to attract the cats. Two of my cats died; the third survived, but only after months of recuperation. I still can barely stand to think about these kitties' suffering.

Strychnine is illegal in Mexico, just as it is in the USA. Nevertheless, there are ways to acquire it. It's most often used as rat poison; domestic animals most often die after ingesting all or part of a poisoned rat. In my case, it was used specifically as cat poison, not rat poison.

This situation is endemic all over Mexico; it's not confined to one specific area. The attitude toward animals in Mexico is for the most part very different from the attitude toward animals in some other countries, where animals are regarded almost as children. The attitude in Mexico has begun to change, but only in some social strata. I don't pretend to be an apologist for attitudes and behavior that are, to many of us, reprehensible. Nevertheless, a fatalistic attitude toward life and death, whether human or animal, is an aspect of many Mexicans' thought process that has come through generations upon generations and is as commonplace as the tortilla.

Foreigners who adore their pets are shocked by what look like deliberate evil acts against animals--not merely acts of poisoning, but other instances of apparent mistreatment and abuse. I've heard scores of foreigners rant about roof dogs, about fighting cocks, about bullfights. Northern sensibilities are offended, but remember that it hasn't been too long since LBJ held that beagle up by its ears.




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Don


Feb 21, 2005, 8:24 AM

Post #9 of 24 (2615 views)

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Re: [PeggyS] Cats

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Why does everyone think it is Mexicans that are poisoning animals. With many communities lakeside that are predominately "gringo" maybe, just maybe, some of the "gringo" neighbors are upset with dogs barking and cats coming onto their property. Maybe some of the "gringos" are the villains. I never heard of that problem in our town which is predominately Mexican and many of them have well kept pets that are loved very much. Don't assume Mexicans to be the evil ones, you might be surprised as to whom is doing the poisoning.

esperanza

Feb 21, 2005, 8:33 AM

Post #10 of 24 (2611 views)

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Re: [Don] Cats

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Hmmm..."predominately gringo"...no, even though the foreign population in Ajijic is large (especially this time of year), it's not predominate. And in fact, if in my case my suspicions about who poisoned my cats are correct, it would have been a Mexican gardener under the direction of the snowbird owners of the property where he worked.




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Rolly


Feb 21, 2005, 9:18 AM

Post #11 of 24 (2599 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Cats

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Wholesale poisonings of dogs is not uncommon in the USA, especially in small towns in sheep and goat country. When I was a boy growing up in a small town in Texas, I lost several dogs to ranchers who would drive through town in the dead of night throwing out poisoned meat. The next morning at school there would be many red-eyed kids still crying over the loss of the family dog. Then, as now, yards were not fenced, and the family dog was free to roam. And, yes, no doubt, some did roam on to the ranches abutting the town and chased the animals. I can understand the ranchers' plight, but still killing all the dogs in town seems a poor solution.

Rolly Pirate

jennifer rose

Feb 21, 2005, 11:30 AM

Post #12 of 24 (2584 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Cats

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Creeps who poison animal guardians exist the world over. I can't count the number of times some criminal in Iowa told me to watch my dogs very closely lest they find a Prestone-laced piece of meat tossed over the fence. Beto the Doberman, who will celebrate his twelfth birthday in two months, was raised never to touch food that wasn't presented in his dish. That was part of his good breeding back in Uruapan, but to this day, he won't touch food that isn't handed to him by me or placed in his dish. All of that does make it difficult to place poison designated for rodents in strategic places around the yard, but fortunately Beto and his delinquent pal Goodman are fairly good ratters.

The issue of poisoning pets isn't limited to Mexico. The best strategy is to constantly patrol the premises and teach your pack partners to be more selective in what they consume. Don't leave your pets outside when you're gone. An accident in the house is better than a poisoned pet.

esperanza

Feb 21, 2005, 11:34 AM

Post #13 of 24 (2579 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Cats

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<considers the likelihood of teaching a cat much of anything>

But amen to teaching the dogs.




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Jean

Feb 22, 2005, 5:27 PM

Post #14 of 24 (2472 views)

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Re: [PeggyS] Cats

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Peggys story is one of the most heartbreaking that I have ever heard.

While working with Anita http://www.anitasanimals.com I heard story after story about animals poisoned. It does not matter who does it. Mexican, American, Canadian or any other nationality. It happens and it happens a lot at lakeside. You think that if your animals are quiet, kept behind closed doors and fenced yards they would be safe. But no. No animals is 100% safe and although I have heard of cruelty to animals before I have never heard of so many cases in such a small area as I did at Lakeside.

I constantly went out with Anita http://www.anitasanimals.com (Donations needed) to help some poisoned animal or an animal that had been injured. It's heartbreaking and I don't know how she does it year after year and never does she get a day off. A holiday has never even been considered. She spends as much money as possible on the welfare of the animals, sometimes to the detriment of her own health and at the expense of her family.

We lived in constant fear that something would happen to our dogs. The cat is an indoor cat so that was not a worry. We daily checked the yard to make sure poison was not thrown in. Many of us have animals with a duel purpose. Friend, companion and guard dog. Then you worry that someone trying to break in will try to poison the guard dog.

After three years we couldn't take it anymore. The worry about the dogs, the dead animals on the road. I will never forget the year we had company come and visit and had to divert their attention on the way back from the airport from the 3 dead horses and 2 dead cows that had been moved to the side of the road, had lime thrown over them and let to rot. Although you can divert their attention, their noses are another story. We gave up going to Guadalajara as it meant seeing so many dead dogs and other animals on the sides of the road.

This being said, I miss Mexico every day. There are so many good and wonderful things, especially at Lakeside. In the end we chose not to risk the lives of our best friends. We did not have faith in the medical services available and these were the two reasons for leaving and moving back and enduring snow again. I would rather have snow and two live dogs than sun and two dead dogs.

I'm glad to see that this subject has been opened up and discussed. It's important for people to make an informed decision on moving to Mexico and knowing the good and the bad. As adults we are capable of handling both the good and bad and making a "totally" informed decision.

Jean
Retirement Communities
http://www.retirecommunities.com

johanson


Feb 22, 2005, 6:16 PM

Post #15 of 24 (2462 views)

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Re: [Jean] Cats

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It's good to read the comments of Jean again, someone I know, respect, and wish was still here lakeside. I know what she wrote is true. I have heard about dogs being poisoned and yes I almost always see dead animals along the road when I drive to Guadalajara.

That said, I have lived in Ajijic for almost 8 years with 2 dogs and up to 3 cats, and neither I nor any of my neighbors have experience poisoning in our neighborhood. That might be because we are at the edge of town and because most of us have high walls.

Oh and Jean, Snoopy turns 19 at the end of April.

And Peggy S, we miss you too.


(This post was edited by johanson on Feb 22, 2005, 6:23 PM)

janamex

Feb 22, 2005, 7:45 PM

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Re: [johanson] Cats

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I really appreciate all the honest and very painful information that has come out in this thread. With my move only a couple of months away, decisions have to be made and I need some advice. Are there some areas that might be safer for my canine pals than others? some places I should avoid? Please be honest and helpful.

Jean

Feb 23, 2005, 7:09 AM

Post #17 of 24 (2406 views)

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Re: [janamex] Cats

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In Reply To
So somehow in my research I missed all talk of dog poisoning! Is this a big problem? Burglary of possessions is one thing but I do not want to put my dog at risk. Like VSOP, I would like to know if this is a problem in all parts of Mexico. Are some areas of Lakeside less likely to have this problem than others? My move is only a few months away and my overly-large, overly-friendly, still-young-and-not-terribly-bright canine pal is coming with me. Any suggestions? More information, please.

I can't think of any area that is totally safe. I guess the completely gated communities might be a bit safer but I don't believe there is any totally safe area. If you walk your dog in areas where there are street dogs you also risk your dog being attacked. I know it happend to Chris and to Don Adams and probably many others.

Mexico is not animal friendly. It's why in the end it was one of our major reasons for leaving after three years. Although I don't like where we live and would rather be back in Mexico, I will not miss the constant fear I lived with over our animals.

Jean
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Bubba

Feb 23, 2005, 11:34 AM

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Re: [Rolly] Cats

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Rolly:

I have four "pack partners" (Jennifer's term that I kind of like over "We own four dogs") and they are as my children. I also have a cat or it has me. I am extremely sympathetic with all of the other animal lovers posting on this thread and find those who poison pets despicable.

One thing, though, about your comments that you understood the ranchers who had dogs coming on their property and chasing livestock. We used to live in a rural coastal area of Sonoma County, California with many sheep ranches (if there is such a thing as a sheep ranch) and know of the carnage dogs left free to roam can cause to a flock of sheep. We are not talking "chasing" sheep here, we are talking slaughtering sheep. Ranchers in Sonoma County would post notices of their intentions and shoot any dog on their property on sight. I can't fault them for that any more than I can forgive the irresponsible dog guardians who do not control them. This is a two way street folks. Our two very large mastiffs are not left free to roam nor are they allowed to bark incessantly and disturb our neighbors. Civility requires that we all try to respect our neighbor's rights to quiet enjoyment of their assets.

That having been said, what do some of you think of the practice of lacing raw meat with hot pepper and throwing it over the walls as a training technique to teach dogs to avoid food delivered in that manner? We have heard this was a good training technique but have not tried it ourselves. We fear it is too late to teach our dogs to only ingest food handed to them by their "pack partners".

sfmacaws


Feb 23, 2005, 1:35 PM

Post #19 of 24 (2337 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Cats

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I've wondered about using some kind of trick like that to train our dogs not to pick up food, it may be too late for them too as they were rescued jungle dogs from the Yucatan. Still, if it would work it could save their lives. I wonder though about only using hot pepper as it has a distinctive smell and they might train to avoid that smell and miss the real message. Perhaps using different hot or bitter additives so they couldn't pin on the smell. Has anyone done this?

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

juan david


Feb 23, 2005, 3:15 PM

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Re: [janamex] Cats

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Bubba hit one nail right on the head...be responsible and don't let your pets annoy the neighborhood. When we lived in town I thought quite a bit about this issue. Now we live in a colonia with reasonable security and I don't think about it at all. We've got a big yard for the galoomphs to romp in and we keep them on lead when we're out walking. We're in a mixed colonia, so this is not a nationality thing where we live. We do not live in fear for our two boyos who we dearly love.
As for the over sized roadkill, we don't much like it, but it is open pastureland out there. I'd be as worried about who hits one as I would be about what got hit.
" let sleeping dogs lie"

Marlene


Feb 23, 2005, 5:58 PM

Post #21 of 24 (2281 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Cats

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You could be onto something I think, but the other thing to consider is that if anything like our Mexican critters (the ones that own us, as Bubba says) tend to enjoy Mexican food complete with spice and chili flavors. They are also big tortilla fans; this includes the parrot, and is beside the point!

We never let the dog off her leash or to sniff in corners, or under bushes lest there be rat poisoning for the rats. The kitty stays in the house as much as he hates that. We have never heard of animals being poisoned purposely here in Mazatlán, however it is common for folks to put out rat poisoning without thinking much about the consequences for loose pets.

1ajijic


Feb 24, 2005, 6:15 PM

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Re: [johanson] Cats

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Like Pete, I guess we are just lucky? I live on a dead end privada and the only nuisance barkers are Mexican Alejandro's pets. In the three years we have lived here there has never been a case of any dog being poisoned on our privada or our block. My little one does not yap, is not left outside when we are not home and our walls are high.
On Indpendencia the Mexican neighbors all have well fed, friendly dogs. I have no fear of Masha the golden, Spunky the huge hound, Cholo the very silent and serious Doberman, Chippy, the mutt. and the others from further up our block. I guess I would trust these Mexican neighbors, all of whom love their dogs to not put out any type of poison. And as for uncaring Mexican owners..well you should see Spunky's other brother wearing his tee shirt all winter, or the other "overdressed" ones in this part of town.
Yes my old standard poodle and my little cairn terrier girl were attacked down by the lake. It was unprovoked, sudden, savage and we were lucky that neither was hurt too badly. They just jumped the little one and tried to kill her. The two attackers were with a Mexican couple. I presume weekenders as I have never seen them or the dogs again. That being said back in NJ, I used to run my pack buddies in the far reaches of a stateside forest preserve. One of mine was attacked there by an Akita off leash with his owner. It can happen anywhere. Now I carry a large can of pepper spray that shoots from a distance. And once or twice when something loose started to threaten the little cairn I have sprayed the offender. It works. So well that subsequently seeing the same dog on the street when they see us they either back up or leave.
As for the dead critters on the road to Guad, well there are no fence laws and it is pretty much inevitable. It is no more gross than the dead deer all over the roads NOB. I can remember a trip into upstate NY where it seemed we saw a bloated deer carcass every two miles. Large loose critters just don't seem to have car sense.
http://www.newbeginningsmexico.com

mkdutch

Feb 26, 2005, 10:04 AM

Post #23 of 24 (2124 views)

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Re: [1ajijic] Cats

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Thanks for a good, balanced, objective (and informative) response, 1ajijic.

gbatrucks


Feb 28, 2005, 12:49 PM

Post #24 of 24 (2064 views)

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Re: [Bubba] Cats

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Bubba writes "I also have a cat or it has me." I think the way it works is that DOGS have OWNERS, CATS have STAFF!
"The trouble with life is there's no background music."
 
 
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