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Miguel Palomares


Jan 17, 2005, 6:03 AM

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Dual Citizenship

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The couple of things on the forum dealing with dual citizenship all seem to focus on Mexicans becoming U.S. citizens, not the reverse of U.S. citizens taking up Mexican citizenship, in my case due to having a Mexican wife. Are there any downsides to doing this?
From Tzurumutaro, Michoacan, "The Village of the Darned."
_______________________________________

The nuts and bolts of moving to Mexico:
http://michaeldickson.blogspot.com/
The dark side of living in Mexico:
http://mexicopeeks.blogspot.com/
Scintillating life in a Mexican pueblo:
http://tzurumutaro.blogspot.com/
http://tzurumutaro2.blogspot.com/



Carron

Jan 17, 2005, 7:48 AM

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Re: [palomares] Dual Citizenship

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No disavantages I can see to getting Mexican citizenship except that it takes years and money and reams of interviews and paperwork, just as it does for Mexicans to become US citizens. Marrying someone from the other country, even when you have children together, does not magically give the spouse dual citizenship.


jennifer rose

Jan 17, 2005, 8:48 AM

Post #3 of 25 (14741 views)

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Re: [palomares] Dual Citizenship

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It really not that difficult a process. See http://www.sre.gob.mx/juridicos/tema1h.htm.


Miguel Palomares


Jan 17, 2005, 3:58 PM

Post #4 of 25 (14697 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Dual Citizenship

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Thanks, Jennifer. It seems I didn´t phrase my initial question too clearly. I know the process and am about to start it. It´s not that difficult, and it´s nothing like what a Mexican trying to get U.S. citizenship must go through.

A gringa friend of mine, also married to a Mexican, received citizenship about two or three years ago. She tells me that it´s against Mexican law to carry the two passports at the same time, that doing so carries the penalty of prison and/or deportation from Mexico. She also tells me that one must sign papers renouncing U.S. citizenship.

I´ve never seen or heard anything like that from any other source. Indeed, another gringo acquaintance with Mexican citizenship, also due to having a Mexican spouse, tells me he´s never heard of any of that either. In truth, it sounds rather outlandish.

I know you´re a lawyer. Please tell me it´s not so. Thanks.


jennifer rose

Jan 17, 2005, 5:53 PM

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Re: [palomares] Dual Citizenship

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Your gringa friend is wrong, and your gringo acquaintance is correct.


elgringomudo


Jan 19, 2005, 9:19 PM

Post #6 of 25 (14556 views)

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Re: [jennifer rose] Dual Citizenship

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The SRE's FAQ page at: http://www.sre.gob.mx/ayuda/faq.htm
is pretty specific that you are supposed to renounce your original citizenship if yopu obtain Mexican nationality, quote:

"Es importante destacar que al obtener la nacionalidad mexicana debe renunciar a su nacionalidad de origen de conformidad con lo dispuesto por los artículos 17 y 19 de la Ley de Nacionalidad.."


"Al obtener la nacionalidad mexicana por naturalización, es necesario realice la renuncia expresa a la nacionalidad extranjera. "

However, the DNN5 form, which would apply in my case, does not ask for any documents substantiating such renunciation, and as one other poster noted there's definitely people of foreign birth who are dual nationals and living in Mexico, so apparently the provisions either aren't enforced or the FAQ page is out of date..


Caarina12

Jan 20, 2005, 8:15 AM

Post #7 of 25 (14518 views)

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Re: [elgringomudo] Dual Citizenship

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My son is a dual citizen by birth. He has both a Mexican and US birth certificate and can obtain passports from both Mexico and USA. We registered him after his birth at the Mexican Consulate and there was no notice that he had to renounce his US citizenship.

My Mexican husband is in the process of becoming a US citizen, and he will the have dual citizenship. However our immigration attorney notified us that the US does NOT recognize dual citizenship. From a US govt. perspective, he will be considered a US citizen only, and his Mexican status will not be recognized. However, in Mexico they will recognize his dual status.

At the Mexican consulates and embassy, there is now a procedure so that US citizens who born in Mexico and renounced their Mexican Citizenship at the time of their naturalization in the US can regain their Mexican citizenship. (Mexico until a few years ago did not recognize dual citizenship). My boss, born in Jalisco, who became a naturalized US citizen in 1979 is in the process of regaining her Mexican citizenship.

I think that the website is out of date.

Caarina


tonyburton


Jan 20, 2005, 8:51 AM

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Re: [elgringomudo] Dual Citizenship

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The system may have changed, but this is how it worked in the old days.
One would apply for Mexican citizenship and prove one's legal residence in Mexico using existing passport of another nation plus relevant visa.
If/when application was approved, then both existing passport and visa were surrendered in exchange for a document stating Mexican citizenship. Visa was presumably then passed to Immigration Dept. Passport was returned to relevant embassy.
The Mexican citizinship certificate then enabled the holder to apply for a Mexican passport, and, if they intended to visit the US using this passport, a US visa.
I can't speak for all embassies, but in the past some embassies would quietly return the passport that had been returned to them by the Mexican authorities to the individual concerned. What the individual did with them after that was up to them.


sandykayak


Jan 20, 2005, 10:48 AM

Post #9 of 25 (14491 views)

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Re: [palomares] Dual Citizenship

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I believe (and JR said it is so) that the US government "approved" dual citizenship about 10 or 12 years ago or more. HOWEVER, they don't really like it so it's probably best to be low key about it.

I have a British passport. When I worked in the British Consulate in Caracas very many years ago, the procedure was pretty much like Tony Burton said. People turned in their UK ppts, got their Venezuelan ones, came to us, and we wrote a letter saying: "....we remind you that the passport is the property of Her Majesty's government...." so please return it. Then we'd call the people to come and get their ppts.

I understand a dual citizen can ask a UK immigration officer to stamp both passports but don't think that would fly in the US port of entry.

My daughter and son (with British ppts.) became US citizens several years ago and neither were asked to turn in their ppts. (Actually, my daughter was born in Venezuela, so she has 3 nationalities but she hasn't bothered to renew her venezuelan one).

I think my son told me he leaves and enters the US on his american passport, then uses his British/EU ppt. when traveling in Europe. I've always wondered if the American immigration authorities would query the fact that there aren't any country entry/departure stamps. anybody know?
Sandy Kramer
Miami, Fla & El Parque


elgringomudo


Jan 20, 2005, 5:50 PM

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Re: [sandykayak] Dual Citizenship

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British Embassy in Caracas, huh? You ever meet a guy by the name
of Nestor Salguero?

OK, I did some research on this, thanks to www.gob.mx (..btw, doesn't the Mexican gov't put up much prettier web sites than the US gov't does?)

Up until a few years ago, indeed it was not only illegal but unconstitutional to carry a Mexican and a foreign passport at the same time, per Article 37 of the Constitucion Politica (cheap & dirty English by freetranslation.com ):

A. The Mexican nationality is lost:
I. By voluntary acquisition of a foreign nationality;
II. By accepting or to use titles peerages that imply submission to a foreign State;
III. By residing, being Mexican by naturalización, for five years continuous, in the country of its origin, and
IV. By causing to pass in any public instrument, being Mexican by naturalización, like the foreigner, or by obtaining and to use a foreign passport.

B. The Mexican citizenship is lost:
I. By accepting or to use titles peerages that imply submission to a foreign government;
II. By lending voluntarily official services to a foreign government without permission of the Federal Congress or of its Permanent Commission;
III. By accepting or to use condecoraciones foreign without permission of the Federal Congress or of its Permanent Commission;
IV. By admitting of the government of another country titles or functions, without subject to license of the Federal Congress or of its Permanent Commission, excepting the literary, scientific or humane titles that can be accepted freely;
V. By helping, against the Nation, to a foreigner, or to a foreign government in any diplomatic claim or before an international court.


That is amended by the following Articulo Transitorio:

Second. Who they have lost their Mexican nationality by birth, by to have acquired voluntarily a foreign nationality and if they are found in full enjoyment of their rights, they will be able to be benefited of the arranged thing in the article 37, section TO constitutional, reformed by virtue of the present decree, subject to request that they do to the Office of the secretary of Foreign Affairs, inside the five following years to it cited date of entrance in vigor of the present.

This amendment allows my wife to legally carry both US & Mexican passports, which she has to as she has to use the Mexican one to enter Mexico, and the US one to come back to the US. However if you read carefully, it appears this exception only applies to people who are Mexicans by birth, ie: born in Mexico or of Mexican parentage. People of foreign birth, (eg: me) it seems, don't qualify, but I suppose it's not a practical problem if the subject doesn't come up. IOW, if a US born person with dual nationality got arrested in Mexico, it'd probably not be a good idea to make phone calls to the US consulate from jail ;-)

Thanks for the tip on getting the passport back..
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
Fighting bad sound and electronic ignorance since
1985 (sorry, folks, it's taking a little longer than I thought)


Texwheel

Jan 20, 2005, 9:01 PM

Post #11 of 25 (14426 views)

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Re: [sandykayak] Dual Citizenship

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I have always heard...a bad assumption, maybe,that a American Citizen could not hold dual citizenship from the American point of view. Has this changed?

PS Have changed the wording of this posting due to the difficulty of changing of anything previously written.
Tom Williams
Georgetown, Texas
Texwheel@aol.com


Uncle Donnie

Jan 22, 2005, 12:25 PM

Post #12 of 25 (14358 views)

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Re: [Texwheel] Dual Citizenship

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Personal observation ONLY!!!

Last week I was with a lady who was in Colima to go through the final interview in the process of gaining Mexican citizenship. At the same time another lady (both U.S. citizens) was informed that her application for Mexican citizenship had been approved and she would be sworn in at a group ceremony in September.

Neither had to surrender passports or U.S. citizenship.

There were requirements as to how much time they had spent in Mexico in the past two years, which they understood was a fairly recent stipulation which was verified by an analysis of the entry/exit stamps on their FM3 booklets.

Hope this helps.

Shameless self-promotion:
http://www.headformexico.com


Cynthia7

Jan 22, 2005, 6:42 PM

Post #13 of 25 (14328 views)

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Re: [Uncle Donnie] Dual Citizenship

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I had two friends who went into Mexico City Wednesday and have been approved for Mexican citizenship. They have to memorize something and return in a few weeks and get their papers. They have dual citizenship in the US and Mexico.


elgringomudo


Jan 24, 2005, 10:04 PM

Post #14 of 25 (14247 views)

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Re: [Uncle Donnie] Dual Citizenship

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In Reply To
Personal observation ONLY!!!
Last week I was with a lady who was in Colima to go through the final interview in the process of gaining Mexican citizenship. At the same time another lady (both U.S. citizens) was informed that her application for Mexican citizenship had been approved and she would be sworn in at a group ceremony in September. Neither had to surrender passports or U.S. citizenship.


I think the message we're getting here is that so long as the US doesn't start cracking down on (a) Mexicans in the US who are naturalized US citizens continuing to carry Mexican passports and (b) Mexicans residing in the US while carrying a matricula consular for an ID, the Mexican gov't will overlook naturalized Mexican citizens who keep their US citizenship.

Hopefully the same state of affairs will exist whenever I get around to reaching retirement age. I don't expect anything to change so long as GWB (otherwise, I'm not much of a fan of him) is President. Many of W's political contributors profit heavily from his lax interest in enforcing US immigration laws.

The reasons for the provisions in the Mexican Constitucion Politica are pretty obvious to anyone who's read Mexican history, prior to the Revolution, many foreigners took advantage of and abused their privileges as Mexican residents, then tried to call on the protection of their native governments when the Mexican gov't tried to get them to cough up taxes, pay their employees fairly, or expropriated their property back to the original indigenous owners.


BTW, out of curiosity, I checked with my lawyer, and under US law you can not lose your US citizenship by renouncing it in front of a foreign government official. You have to go to a US embassy or consulate and formally renounce it to a US State Dept. official. So even if the Mexicans took your US passport, you could just hoof over to the nearest US consulate or embassy and ask for a replacement, same as if it got lifted by a carterista (that's a pickpocket, not a supporter of President Carter ;-)
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
Fighting bad sound and electronic ignorance since
1985 (sorry, folks, it's taking a little longer than I thought)


Marta R

Jan 26, 2005, 4:25 PM

Post #15 of 25 (14188 views)

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Re: [elgringomudo] Dual Citizenship

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Hi, all. This is my first post here, so be gentle with me, okay?

I was born in Mexico City, of a Mexican mother and a Norteamericano father, in the late 40s -- I'm a U.S. citizen by birth (according to the INS), but I have a Mexican birth certificate and I recently found my first passport, issued when I was one -- it's a Mexican passport and says that I'm a Mexican citizen.

So, am I or am I not? My family left Mexico when I was two and I've been back only sporadically since then; I vote in the U.S., my kids are U.S. citizens -- but my husband and I plan to retire in Mexico Real Soon Now, and it's starting to look like the right time to get all this straightened out.

Would you suggest making an appointment with the local Mexican Consulate and asking them, or is there some better way of going about this?

-- Marta

Marta


Rolly


Jan 26, 2005, 5:09 PM

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Re: [chrisnmarta] Dual Citizenship

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You have a Mexican birth certificate = you are a Mexican citizen.

Rolly Pirate


Adrian

Jan 27, 2005, 7:22 PM

Post #17 of 25 (14142 views)

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Re: [chrisnmarta] Dual Citizenship

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In Reply To
So, am I or am I not? My family left Mexico when I was two and I've been back only sporadically since then; I vote in the U.S., my kids are U.S. citizens -- but my husband and I plan to retire in Mexico Real Soon Now, and it's starting to look like the right time to get all this straightened out.

Would you suggest making an appointment with the local Mexican Consulate and asking them, or is there some better way of going about this?

-- Marta

Marta
It's simple...just be like my cousin (who has an identical situation to yours). When she crosses the border INTO Mexico, she uses her Mexican passport. When she crosses into the USA, she uses her US passport. Who's to know?

BTW - I do the same for my daughter's two passports - she has Mexican citizenship via her mother and UK citizenship from me - to simplify the visa issues.

Adrian


Cynthia7

Jan 27, 2005, 8:32 PM

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Re: [elgringomudo] Dual Citizenship

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My friends that applied for dual citizenship have no Mexican connection except they have been coming to Mexico to visit and have a house here now. Their German ancestors came to Texas several generations ago. The closest they have come to having a Mexican connection is a Mexican maid and gardner. They plan for this to be their principal residence so they applied for dual citizenship.


Marta R

Jan 27, 2005, 8:41 PM

Post #19 of 25 (14130 views)

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Re: [Adrian] Dual Citizenship

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Adrian, that sounds sensible -- except that my Mexican passport, issued in 1950, has a photo of a wide-eyed little girl wearing tiny golden earrings and a ribbon in her (scanty) hair. It would probably be entertaining to try to convince a border guard that she and I are one and the same. I think that I need to approach the Consulate, even if just to "renew" that passport.

From what I've read (admittedly not much) my Mexican citizenship would entitle me to run a business, maybe? Make it easier to buy property? Would it help my gringo husband in any way? There's so much to learn!

Marta


Don


Jan 28, 2005, 7:30 AM

Post #20 of 25 (14103 views)

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Re: [chrisnmarta] Dual Citizenship

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Not sure what is your problem. If you have all the paper work showing you as a U.S. Citizen. you get all the benefits available in the U.S. If you have a Mexican birth certificate, you can get the benefits of a Mexican Citizen. Probably very little difference than a Mexican, that is a naturalized U.S. Citizen. With your birth certificate and expired Mexican passport, you can get a new passport. If you need other Mexican I.D. that will be easy to get with your Mexican birth certificate.
My wife is Mexican by birth and a naturalized U.S. Citizen. She enjoys both worlds. Also, she doesn't need special permission to live in either country, like a FM-3 for Mexico. With your Mexican birth certificate, you shouldn't either.


(This post was edited by Don on Jan 28, 2005, 7:32 AM)


Marta R

Mar 7, 2005, 4:24 PM

Post #21 of 25 (13950 views)

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Re: [Don] Dual Citizenship

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Okay, I have all my paperwork together and am headed for the Consulate tomorrow to apply for my Mexican passport. (When I went there last week to ask questions, I said that my original passport issued in 1950 and is "muy viejo." The gentleman I spoke to said, "es historico." I suppose that means that I am, too. I rather like it.)

So my new question is this: doesn't the US get ticked off, if you leave the country on a Mexican passport but enter it on a US passport?

Marta


Esteban

Mar 7, 2005, 4:39 PM

Post #22 of 25 (13943 views)

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Re: [chrisnmarta] Dual Citizenship

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I don't think so. They want your'e affiliation with the US to continue so they can collect taxes and information. You want it so you can collect social security. Besides that, you are in their database which will someday be so comprehensive, the animal farm will know your'e every move from their own outer space barnyard.


elgringomudo


Mar 7, 2005, 10:45 PM

Post #23 of 25 (13907 views)

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Re: [chrisnmarta] Dual Citizenship

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So my new question is this: doesn't the US get ticked off, if you leave the country on a Mexican passport but enter it on a US passport?


So long as you are not using your Mexican citizenship to avoid US obligations (eg:like paying taxes) or vice versa, it's not a problem. Mi esposa frequently visits Mexico, at least once or twice a year, she presents her Mexican passport on the Mexican side and the US one here.

BTW, as a Mexican expatriate, you can now vote in Mexican federal elections. See: Aprueban el voto de los mexicanos en el exterior at http://www.consulmexchicago.com/

That pretty much guarantees Lopez Obrador being elected the next President if he can avoid the desafuero and attitude of the Mexican expatriates I've met here are any guide. There's a lot of votes over here, I expect a number of visits here from Mexican politicos in the next year. Fox sort of anticipated that, he's already been to calle 26.
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
Fighting bad sound and electronic ignorance since
1985 (sorry, folks, it's taking a little longer than I thought)


Rolly


Mar 8, 2005, 7:04 AM

Post #24 of 25 (13873 views)

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Re: [chrisnmarta] Dual Citizenship

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When you have two passports, you are supposed to use the one of the country you are entering or leaving. Mexican passport when leaving Mexico; swap pockets on the plane; USA passport when enering the USA.

Rolly Pirate


Marta R

Mar 8, 2005, 12:05 PM

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Re: [Rolly] Dual Citizenship

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Thanks, Rolly. I'll remember to do that.

Elgringomundo, I think I'll have to learn a lot more about Mexican politics before I'd feel comfortable casting a vote for anyone. When it comes to that, I get exercised when people here in the US vote without thinking. This means that I get a lot of exercise.

I am learning to say "estadounidense" (sp?) but my tongue keeps getting in the way.

Marta
 
 
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