Forums > Specific Focus > Learning Spanish

lilacassady

Oct 21, 2004, 5:47 PM

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Learning the language

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I'm going to Oaxaca for 2-3 months to study Spanish. I've been studying daily on my own for about 6 months, but I'd still call myself a beginner. I am not a newcomer to language study (also studied Vietnamese, French, Bengali) but have never quite become bilingual, and that's my goal this time. I'm interested in two things -- finding the best option in Oaxaca for really well done intensive study -- and learning from other serious students about their experience of progressing towards fluency (and what that means), the time they spend, and what they spend it doing.
I just saw the wonderful movie Before Night Falls (actually, I've seen it several times now, and am transcribing it onto paper in English/Spanish) and in the "special feature" of the DVD the main actor, Javier Bardem, said he became reasonably fluent in English in 60, 10-hour days with a coach. You can see how reasonable it is when you watch the movie -- serviceable, I'd call it.
I have two goals - the first to become "serviceable" and the second to be what I call truly fluent -- able to discuss ideas, literature, subtleties of culture and art. I'm wondering how long it would take, with my 57-year old brain, to attain the first level, and what I should be looking for in a language school and tutor. Right now I work every day with the "Platiquemos" CDs and text, and that has been surprisingly productive. I also look at dual-language books, and buy Spanish and English editions of the same novels to compare. But the "rote" process of learning verbal expression (constant repetition--it works!) is quite different than the more intellectual process of comparing texts that are beyond my level.
I would be very grateful to anyone willing to share their experience on this journey towards bilingualism, how they did it, the trials and tribulations, how long it took (or is taking!)
Lila

Don Moore

Oct 21, 2004, 6:02 PM

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Re: [lilacassady] Learning the language

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I don't know anything about language programs in Oaxaca, though I've heard there are some good ones. I do know from experience (both teaching and learning) that three months (full time) of excellent instruction for a highly motivated student is about right to provide one with a good foundation in the structure and basic vocabulary of a language. With that kind of background, you should be able to move on to proficiency, if not fluency by continuing to study and practice. I have been a second language English teacher and have learned Spanish, Tagalog and Cebuano, so I have some confidence that it can be done as described above.

Good luck to you,

Don Moore
Don Moore

Judy in Ags

Oct 21, 2004, 6:34 PM

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Re: [lilacassady] Learning the language

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I don't know what your other language learning experience consisted of, but my husband and I both recommend to ANYONE learning ANY language that you start with a course in phonetics. It makes a world of difference.

Adrian

Oct 21, 2004, 8:47 PM

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Re: [lilacassady] Learning the language

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After 14 months of living here in Tampico and working in the mercado, I can honestly say that I am thoroughly disabused of the notion that one can learn by immersion & osmosis alone.

Firstly, it is important to understand that a native english speaker will always experience some difficulty in learning a foreign language simply because of the fact that english, in its most basic form, is a remarkably simple language. Think about it: no gender; regular verbs have only two conjugations; simple tense formations; use of auxiliary verbs etc.

The worst thing, I find, about the immersion method is that one tends to pick up on other people's bad grammar and poor sentence construction. i would like to learn in a more formal classroom setting but there seem to be remarkably few places that teach Spanish for Foreigners at anything above the most basic level.

Adrian

raferguson

Oct 21, 2004, 9:15 PM

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Re: [lilacassady] Learning the language

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For what it is worth, I have found that tutors are the best and most expensive way to learn a language. I generally got college students, native speakers who were already teaching their language to other college students. I usually find that I am fried after one hour of conversation in another language, one on one.

Like some of the others who replied, I have learned a couple of languages, Spanish and French. (My Spanish is much better than my French). I have never tried the immersion process, but I know that my trips to areas where everyone speaks the language have been very helpful. I usually am the best linguist when I travel, which means I am out front, dealing with whatever needs to be done, all the time. Similarly, going by yourself will help make you learn it.

To some people's surprise, I speak fluent Spanish without ever living in a Spanish speaking country, without having a Spanish girlfriend or family, or taking an immersion course, so it can be done. I am always trying to expose myself to the languages that are not my own. If you got into my car and pushed the buttons on the radio, you would find that some of the stations are Spanish. My CD player always has two CDs in Spanish, two in French, and two in English.

Don't hang out with english speakers, listen to Spanish music, read the local paper in Spanish, etc. It really is an issue of time and effort, I think.

Richard

http://www.fergusonsculpture.com

cristalhombre

Oct 22, 2004, 8:02 AM

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Re: [lilacassady] Learning the language

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We attended the Instituto Cultural Oazaca, website is www.inscuoax.com for a 5 week immersion in December of 2002. I thought this program was excellent!! Your period of 3 months should help you with a very good foundation in the language.

This school is well known in Oaxaca and well located in the cental area. The activities supported during the day and "off time" (evenings and weekends) were extensive. A group of approx 15 got together with an excellent guide to tour Monte Alban and various sites in the region.

The one area where they really shined was the program they put together for my then 9 year old daughter. She had a private tutor the entire time and she was doing so well, much better than Mom and Dad. Family stays were excellent, and arranged by the ICO.

Can't say enough good things about this program.

Bueno suerte

"NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST...."

bdlngton

Oct 23, 2004, 1:03 PM

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Re: [lilacassady] Learning the language

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As a Spanish teacher of over 30 years who has traveled and studied extensively in Mexico, studied in Peru, lived and worked in Colombia, I do not consider myself "fluent." Most language teachers do not use the term "fluent" but rather "proficient." In the language teaching world "proficiency" is rated on a scale from novice to superior, with lots of steps along the way. The highest ranking includes not only native fluency in the language but also being able to use technical terms and reasoning and persuasion skills. Technical terms can be about any specific vocation. For example, I do't know the first thing about how to talk about milking a cow or building a table. When I taught in Colombia I had to learn a whole new vocabulary to talk about the routines of a school. Not to mention all the Mexican vocabulary I used that I had to replace with Colombian vocabulary. First to go was "Mande?"

So I would say drop the idea of becoming "fluent" and think instead of learning a second language as being a life-long progression from one level to the next. As a non-native speaker you will most likely never reach the highest level of proficiency. Most native speakers never reach the highest level of proficiency. But they communicate fine anyway.

Which method of learning works best for you depends a lot on what kind of person you are. If you are gregarious, cannot stand not to speak, don't care about understanding grammar or logic in a language, and don't worry about making errors, then you will probably learn well through immersion. Just throw yourself into it and see if you sink or swim. But remember that the adult brain learns and stores a language differently than a child's brain and most adult brains have a need to compare the new language to the native language.

Therefore, for most adults, a combination of classroom instruction where structure is explained and putting yourself into a situation where you must speak the language, like living with a Mexican family, are the best combination. That is what has always worked best for me.

One-on-one tutoring can be great if the tutor is one who understands how Spanish works. Most native speakers are not great tutors unless they have studied how to teach a language. They can, however, be great conversation partners if they are willing guessers and patient with your speed of expression and comprehension.

Book-learning, while not as exciting as immersion, can give you a good basis for learning how to express what you want to say as precisely as possible. The further you advance in a language the more you want to understand the ins and outs of the structure of the language to be fully understood and to understand exactly what the other person is saying.

One last observation: The more I learn Spanish the more I realize I don't know! Heck, I don't know everything in English. How can I possibly expect to know everything in Spanish? Can I express myself well? Yes, in most situations. But the more I use Spanish the more I realize I still have to learn. So be patient and forgiving with yourself and feel good that this week you are understanding more and communicating better than last week.

Those are just a few of my thoughts on the nature of language learning based on my continuing quest to "learn" Spanish.
Susy

PS--I don't consider myself bilingual either, though I am sometimes taken for a native speaker by native speakers. But they always think I'm from some other Spanish-speaking country or region because I don't quite sound like them, my grammar is too perfect, I don't use slang and I my vocabulary is a congromoration of things learned from various books and in various countries. As one 57-year-old brain to another, I admire you for even trying at this age. It's not easy but the rewards are well worth it. You are kind of like a "double agent" because of the experiences you will have and the relationships you will form entirely in Spanish. And enjoy Oaxaca! It is so beautiful there.
Susy

lilacassady

Oct 25, 2004, 5:08 PM

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Re: [bdlngton] Learning the language

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Wow! I went on vacation for 3 days and returned to read all this incredibly useful information…thanks! I had my first experience this morning, listening to a Spanish station in San Francisco, of understanding the general gist of what they were saying. I can even say that I probably understood more than half the words…but the word order of Spanish (or seeming lack of convention in this regard) is often a stumper when trying to listen to the language as it speeds by.
Also, I think it’s interesting that when I used to write in French (stories and poems), I wrote very differently in both subject matter and tone than I do in English – because French (at least to me) is much cooler and more cerebral than either English or Spanish. And now, as I learn Spanish, I can see that this language is also influencing me to write and to think differently. But I digress.
Thanks again to all.
--Lila