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elcoqui

Sep 4, 2004, 2:28 PM

Post #1 of 20 (2122 views)

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Locals Fight Wal-Mart Store Near Ancient Mexico Ruin

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FYI...Just wanted to share...

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Locals Fight Wal-Mart Store Near Ancient Mexico Ruin

http://www.reuters.com/...557&section=news

03 Sep 2004 17:19

By Lorraine Orlandi

TEOTIHUACAN, Mexico, Sept 3 (Reuters) - In the shadow of colossal
pyramids left by a great Mexican civilization, a Wal-Mart rises, and
some locals have gone to court to overturn its approval.

The sprawling warehouse-style Bodega Aurrera, a unit of Wal-Mart in
Mexico, is due to open in December in Teotihuacan, the site of major
archeological ruins outside Mexico City.

Workers are putting on the roof this week.

"It's not just that commerce in Teotihuacan will be affected. It
affects first of all our soul, our identity," said local teacher
Emanuel D'Herrera, who joined legal action to stop the store.

As a young father, he planted his newborn son's umbilical cord at the
ancient temples for protection.

"We are Mexicans and very proud of our history," he said. "One of the
landmarks of our history and culture is Teotihuacan."

Amid rising controversy...

(This post was edited by tonyburton on Sep 4, 2004, 4:30 PM)

elcoqui

Sep 4, 2004, 3:49 PM

Post #2 of 20 (2100 views)

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Re: [elcoqui] Locals Fight Wal-Mart Store Near Ancient Mexico Ruin

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Here is another one...

http://apnews1.iwon.com/...40903/D84SBTLG1.html

Sep 3, 2:58 PM (ET)

By MARK STEVENSON
Full Image
MEXICO CITY (AP) - A Wal-Mart-owned discount store rising a half-mile from the ancient temples of Teotihuacan has touched off a fight by a small coalition that doesn't want to see the big, boxy outlet from the top of the Pyramid of the Sun.
But with most people in the area supporting Wal-Mart, the group is waging a lonely battle for what it calls its defense of Mexico's landscape and culture.
The dispute in Teotihuacan - a town built next to the ruins of the 2,000-year-old metropolis - illustrates how the allure of low prices and U.S. lifestyles often wins out in Mexico, leaving traditionalists struggling to draw a line in rapidly shifting cultural sands.
"We'd rather not have Mickey Mouse on top of the Pyramid of the Moon," says Emmanuel D'Herrera, a business owner in Teotihuacan, 30 miles
He claims a tall sign will loom near the huge twin pyramids that draw hundreds of thousands of tourists annually, although a government-appointed archaeologist disputes that.
And while the store is visible from atop...

(This post was edited by tonyburton on Sep 4, 2004, 4:31 PM)

Bubba

Sep 5, 2004, 9:11 AM

Post #3 of 20 (2040 views)

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Re: [elcoqui] Locals Fight Wal-Mart Store Near Ancient Mexico Ruin

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So, the people of the rather pedestrian and unsightly town of Teotihuacan are concerned that a non-descript, if imposing, Wal-Mart in their midst will detract from the questionable esthetic value of the surrounding countryside available to those who climb the great pyramid in the nearby ruins. Don't forget that today's box stores are tomorrow's archeological digs that will provide endless retrospectives for future archeologists as they study the ruins of the giant, discount roofed-over markets that flourished circa AD 2000 creating significant social changes only to fade ignominiously with the subsequent advent of new technologies that revolutioned consumer goods distribution methods. That is, those evolutionary technogies which were, in turn, stamped out by the successful Islamist Revolution started with the nascent Bin Ladin movement of the 1900s which finally came into power in the latter part of the 21st Century and did away with the decadent notion of "consumer goods" altogether for the next 400 years until.... (fill in the blanks)

On the other hand, maybe the fight against Wal-Mart has less to do with esthetics than the apprehension felt by local merchants who, rightly, fear the competition.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Sep 5, 2004, 9:17 AM)

NEOhio

Sep 5, 2004, 10:46 AM

Post #4 of 20 (2024 views)

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Re: new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

Bubba, Great reply....I am beginning to see articles, news casts and our local schools moving away from the B.C. and A.D. era desginations and are substituting BCE - before the common era and ACE, after the common era. The explanation is that the age old era designation is offensive to most of the world. I wonder what they'll call the next era, at first anyway.

As for the view, it sounds already encrouched on, and at least they aren't plowing the big things under, just the little things. Just one more reason not to shop at Walmart, but then I have an economic choice some other don't and that need of theirs will and should be be met regardless of the landscape and treasures. But its still too bad and I sincerely wish there was hope they could win.

esperanza

Sep 5, 2004, 1:25 PM

Post #5 of 20 (1996 views)

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Re: [NEOhio] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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Don't you think it will be AWE--After the Wal-Mart Encroachment?

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

(This post was edited by esperanza on Sep 5, 2004, 1:26 PM)

moonfam5

Sep 7, 2004, 9:56 PM

Post #6 of 20 (1884 views)

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Re: [esperanza] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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I believe it is called C.E. or just common era. I prefer A.D. Anno Domini or Year of our Lord, since this is the "era" that people are still using on their calendars. What was the EVENT that made it B.C.E./ C.E. anyway? It was the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord (Anno Domini). Some people never will learn, maybe we should go back to the old style of keeping the days... in the fifth year, second month of the reign of G.W. Bush...(that is if King George gets re-elected, one can only hope and vote that he does).
Have a great day ya'll.
Wink

The more I learn, I less I know.

Dave Calhoun

Sep 12, 2004, 11:44 PM

Post #7 of 20 (1792 views)

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Re: [moonfam5] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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Hello forum,
I am new to this site, but my interest in Mexico goes back many years. Being a transplant from the Midwest, in 1954 my family moved to the wild frontier of Chula Vista, just north of the border. In 1954 the population was then about 18,000 people. My interest in Mexico was arrested during those early years and not much was remembered as a lad of 12 years old except the stripped burros that only existed in T.J.; a most unusual species indeed.
Through the years my interest in Mexico has not only matured...or maybe it is I that has matured, to better understand a really remarkable culture and people that was so misunderstood at my younger age. I find myself today at the age of 62, with a love that has developed for a struggling culture that I am trying better to understand. I have read numberous books, the B. Traven's on down the line. I would never state I have any first hand experience to justify my beliefs, but I have formed certain beliefs, certain convictions that prompt me to enter into this discussion.

I do have passions of exploring Mexico soon, and I envy you who have made this transition. I guess the reason I am writing this is from what I have read of the Teotihuacan situation vr wal-mart. I am really a little surprised and disapointed that there isn't alittle more empathy with the people of Mexico in trying to preserve an earlier way of life, a flavor of culture that has all but extinguished itself in most of the world, something that echos eons of earlier times that we as Americans have really never experienced in the States? Am I understanding this wrong? aren't you as americans in a land that you have deceided to call your own, more concerned in helping the people to eradicate the giants that have no other idol than a dollars profit ? If that be so, shame on you! I would expect, I would hope that you who have experienced so much, and have seen our American culture....No, I won't even call it a culture for it is too young to be given that nomenclature; maybe a way of life that has so drastically changed through the years. America has lost so very much, because of your quest to follow the dollar. we have lost our integrity. Our people have lost the ability to think, but want only to be lead by empty promises. You how are now abiding in a County apart from your origins have the ability to use some of the wisdom I hope you have learned of how Giant corporations can woe and manipulate themselfs into a culture, only to erode the value system, the mores of the people, of a society. Don't we who have experienced this downward spiral have some responsibliity to voice our opinion? Is a Wal-mart in the shadows of Teotihuacan something that we could say with all honesty...yes, this is good. I for one don't think so. I would help those that are trying to preserve a tradition....for what ever the reason, because I know that the wal-marts, the cost-co's aren't interested in preserving anything thing except themselfs. I would hope that we as americans are not so pathetic as to stand by and let the bullies have their way; if you are, then shame on you.

Esteban

Sep 13, 2004, 6:39 AM

Post #8 of 20 (1772 views)

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Re: [Dave Calhoun] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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One thing you may not know Dave is that foreigners are prohibited by law to partake in anything political. I would call getting involved in this matter VERY political. It's not our call as ex-pats to get into the fray. Even if a Walmart store is erected, it won't last as long as the pyramids and if in the future, the Mexican people feel that the Walmart must go because of historical or aesthetic import, then it will be gone. It won't take much to demolish what goes up in a matter of a few short months.

Kip

Sep 13, 2004, 6:58 AM

Post #9 of 20 (1765 views)

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Re: [Esteban] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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I relize that this is a goofy, unworkable idea, but wouldn't it be great if they could build it to blend in with the ruins? At least enough to not be a garish contrast?

Kip
kip

Esteban

Sep 13, 2004, 7:25 AM

Post #10 of 20 (1754 views)

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Re: [Kip] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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What really surprises me is that INAH wasn't involved in the decision making process. Although I've never been to the top of one of those pyramids, I suppose the area within that view encompases a huge amount of ground. Maybe they should just demolish all of Mexico City and turn it into a thriving Aztec city and resume the sacrificing of virgins!

Dave Calhoun

Sep 13, 2004, 7:46 AM

Post #11 of 20 (1745 views)

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Re: [Esteban] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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Thank you for setting me straight; I have alot to learn about the rules and regulations of a converted lifestyle, forgive me for rushing in to fight windmills.

Bubba

Sep 13, 2004, 8:24 AM

Post #12 of 20 (1729 views)

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Re: [Dave Calhoun] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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Dave:

I am not a WalMart fan but the WalMart phenomenon in Mexico has been driven by demand from Mexican nationals, not expat visitors. Secondly, WalMart's operating efficiences and discount pricing have forced its other Mexican competitors to implement like operating efficiencies and lower operating margins and prices. This is a trend which, so far, has been a boon to Mexican consumers.

WalMart has been a huge success with the Mexican people and WalMart Mexico is one of WalMart's most profitable international affiliates. It is a Mexican corporation. If they are building a big box store near the pyramids, somebody wants them there. They are not in business to lose money.

Incidentally, I live on the north shore of Lake Chapala where some retailers have long prospered unduly by price gouging while utilizing inefficient and costly inventory management techniques. Soon the Soriana chain, which is similar to WalMart, will open a mega-store in Chapala and, while many smaller retailers will suffer, the local consumer will benefit greatly.

I first visited both France and Mexico in the 1960s. When I first visited Paris, I was appalled at some of the new apartment structures being constructed to replace many of the older, dilapidated but more attractive buildings. Later, my Parisian father-in-law would remind me that, while those older buildings were attractive to look at, they were sure as hell no fun to live in. Back in the 60s, Parisians had to wait five years to get a telephone and only then if they had pull. Progress isn't all bad.

I do like Esteban's suggestion that we give the Valley of Mexico back to the Aztecs. That is, if we can find any.

jardinero viejo

Sep 13, 2004, 9:31 AM

Post #13 of 20 (1699 views)

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Re: [Dave Calhoun] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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While we agree that it is disrespectful for ex-pats to go plunging into the middle of these types of issues, it is difficult to sit still. As Americans, we have already tread this ground and have learned the lessons of sprawl, visual pollution, and the whole 'pave paradise and put up a parking lot' mentality. It is difficult to just sit on this experience when it appears others could benefit from not having to go through those same lessons !

But, we have found that there are a number of environmental organizations in Mexico that are working toward solving problems with sprawl, deforestation, air and water pollution, etc. These are for the most part, grassroot groups with limited funding and a lot of heart. We don't know of any Mexico equivilents to the Sierra Club or EarthJustice. These groups welcome help from gringos and, of course, financial contributions. Our efforts and donations have always been welcome. We are careful not to try to take the lead without invitation - that seems to be the polite thing to do anyway.

So, we recommend that ex-pats not sit on their experience with these problems. Absolutely we must use what we have seen NOB to help others avoid the mistakes we made! We constantly learn from the Mexican people when it comes to peacefulness, honesty, family respect, etc. The least we can do is try to return some goodness.

Good luck.....
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" To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the public."
Theodore Roosevelt
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Dave Calhoun

Sep 13, 2004, 11:33 AM

Post #14 of 20 (1680 views)

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Re: [jardinero viejo] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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I say "Amen" to those words, and thank you for you comments "We constantly learn from the Mexican people when it comes to peacefulness, honesty, family respect, etc. The least we can do is try to return some goodness."

I realize that there is certainly more corruption in Mexico than perhaps in other places, but I believe that this can be gradually changed by developing educational programs within the schools. I have heard that Fox is attempting to do some of this. Large Corporations can do just about anything they want by paying the "right" people, or contributing to the right cause; This isn't so different than it is up here. It would be ashame that we as a people, that have seen some of the devisation this sprawl has caused in the States, couldn't in some way help in correcting "our"pass errors. I believe in feeding the people, relieving pain and suffering...but maybe that can be done without having to be under the shadow of the giant corporation's heavy boot.

I'm glad to learn of these grassroot groups that you spoke of jardinero, and I would like to have more information about them if anyone could assist me. I am a very conservative Republican here in the states; I believe in upholding the dignity of the individual, and I believe that the plights of the mexican people aren't solved by free programs that increase the power, size and scope of government, but the education and assistance in developing trades. There are no easy solutions, no quick-fixes. I wish there were, for there are many traits with the Mexican culture that are so beautiful - that are being lost in our World culture. The world is changing; information is so quickly accessible; I only wish that this new found asset could work more towards the uplifting of the individual, to feeding the hungry, to comfort the grieving; maybe human nature has a long way to go in recognizing what is of long term importance to a healthy society.

Bubba

Sep 13, 2004, 12:52 PM

Post #15 of 20 (1660 views)

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Re: [Dave Calhoun] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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Jardinero Viejo and Dave Calhoun:

Go save Iraq. Your Army of God is already there. Leave the rest of us in peace. There is nothing you have to say that the original God-Fearing Colonialists didn't already say 100 years or more ago.

(This post was edited by Bubba on Sep 13, 2004, 1:00 PM)

Esteban

Sep 13, 2004, 1:14 PM

Post #16 of 20 (1653 views)

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Re: [Bubba] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what

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I totally agree with you Bubba. I'm always a little suspect when folks from NOB are so intent on helping change Mexico when the magnitude of corruption in their own country makes Mexico look like a virgin. You have a war started based on lies, you have the military industrial complex alive and well propping up the economy, you have innocent people being brutalized condoned by puppet leaders who have migrated to Iraq from Unocal and you say you want to stop urban sprawl in Mexico? Get a damn grip and look in your own backyard.

Adrian

Sep 13, 2004, 1:15 PM

Post #17 of 20 (1652 views)

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It's the Third World, Stupid! (was: Re: [Dave Calhoun] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to what)

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<sigh>

Tired as I was of the oppresively avuncular society that is England, despairing of the smears to label me as 'middle-class' - thereby enforcing an inculcation of unearned-guilt and an instant justification to relieve me of my pitiful earnings by ever higher taxation - I hied me to Mexico via marriage to one of her citizens.

Mexico is a poor place but getting better every day and in every way and I very quickly realised that with our small stock of capital (around US$80k) we could start a small but respectable business to provide goods and services to those who desired them. We could do this in an environment that had respect for rules and regulations but little will and finance to enforce them. The 'natural' ethics and integrity of this highly religious society would maintain respect for me and I, with my own rationally developed worldview, would respect it. Additionally, we would be able to have a better life here and give our children a materially and spiritually better life than in England.

<rant>
Now, romanticised tributes to a paradise-lost aside (the idea of 'yesterday being better than today' is thousands of years old), it seems to me that MEXICO IS A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY. I say that LOUDLY to remind some posters here on MexConnect of the URGENT NEED FOR CAPITALISM to elevate the condition of Señor Average and his family and to help them be relieved of their struggles to eke a living. WalMart is a great organisation and a towering example of 'Yankee gumption'. For this, the late Sam Walton was the personification of the manifest destiny and proof-positive of the American Dream.

I for one, do not appreciate the leftist envy-driven attacks on such paragons of Capitalism as WalMart - no one forces people to shop there. Nor do I appreciate the first-world smugness that goes hand-in-hand with the view that there is an intrinsic worth in the surroundings of the peoples of a country. Mankind must shape his environment to suit his needs and maximise his chance of successful living (as opposed to bare-bones survival) and if this means building in the shadow of a pyramid then so be it. What's more important here? That Señor Average is able to clothe and feed his family more effectively with what little money he can muster by shopping at WalMart? Or that the smug and self-satisfied intelligentsia of Mexico or the US can point to that pyramid and proclaim its utility and relevance to the modern world?

It sickens me (no, I mean it - it really sickens me) to see that environmentalism is on the rise in Mexico when it is, at best, a first-world luxury that Mexico cannot afford...yet. By limiting the growth of capitalism in Mexico (via 'Green' policies) the poor will be held back for many more years and more capital and jobs will flee to places like China.

</rant>

Adrian

Esteban

Sep 13, 2004, 3:33 PM

Post #18 of 20 (1626 views)

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Re: [Adrian] It's the Third World, Stupid! (was: Re: [Dave Calhoun] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to w

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I have much more to say than what I'll say in this post but to label those who are against establishing Walmarts as "leftist envy driven" people is way off base in my opinion. To me it's the very self righteous neo-cons who would rather see Mexicans left behind without the benefit of the big box store. Without the benefits of good jobs and access to goods. In fact, if anything, the whole idea of Walmart, a store with "everything" is sort of socialistic. But these labels do nothing but stir up trouble. I'm proud to be a liberal but I'm a diehard capitalist who enjoys making money and would like to see every person in the world realize their own finanacial success. More later.

ERISAjunkie

Sep 13, 2004, 8:03 PM

Post #19 of 20 (1570 views)

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Re: [Adrian] It's the Third World, Stupid! (was: Re: [Dave Calhoun] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE to w

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Amen to that Adrian. I would imagine that most of the new employees at Wal-Mart, not just the shoppers, will be Mexicans. Maybe some of these people will be able to rise in the ranks, put food on their table, own a little piece of the company and provide for their children. Maybe they want the same things in life that ex-pats, living as well as they do on their dollars in a developing country, have. Not saying that you'll get rich working at Wal-Mart but it does provide the dignity of work and a decent job in an economy that really needs them.

Another poster made the suggestion that a esthetic balance could be struck so that legitimate concerns can be addressed. Good idea.

Ed and Fran

Sep 14, 2004, 6:17 AM

Post #20 of 20 (1537 views)

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Re: [ERISAjunkie] It's the Third World, Stupid! (was: Re: [Dave Calhoun] new Era - BC/AD vs. BCE/ACE

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"Another poster made the suggestion that a esthetic balance could be struck so that legitimate concerns can be addressed. "

From another article on the subject:
"Wal-Mart executives say they have taken steps to make the store inconspicuous.
"A number of conditions have been set to make the store blend in," said Ortega, who monitors the site. "It will be lower than a regular store - below the tree line. It will have more subdued colors, and a stone facade."
The low-to-the-ground sign....."

article at: http://www.billingsgazette.com/...0-walmart-mexico.inc

Sounds to me like they're making a decent attempt at it.