Forums > Areas > Jalisco's Lake Chapala Region

1 2 View All

Sam

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #1 of 37 (2754 views)

Shortcut

Apology Offered to some and more lumps for others.

Can't Post |

To most of you forum members, I apologize. I have written comments and painted with a very broad stroke. I have characterized and stereotyped and reasoned within myself to justify the statements. In the many fights I have started, I have made two good friends, Bill and Donnie. I have also seen the other side of the coin, the Mexican response, the response of my fellow natives. Whether you or anyone else believes I am actually Mexican is of little concern to me. I enjoy the inter-play of the hostility I cause with this confusion, and all the “he is or is not whatever”. Well it is not worth it. I have now seen the face of the enemy and it is all. It seems that I have met just as many sons of bitches who are Mexican, as I have who are foreigners. Go figure. It seemed at first I took offense at the foreigner side of the equation, but after careful consideration I guess I do have more in common with one culture as opposed to the other. I will not indicate which one seems more apt to be my primary enculturation, but after reading the posts of the “Jalisciense” I am sure I do not want to be seen as being as closed minded and clouded as he apparently is. So peace for now, and I will occasionally “piss” you all off, to get the blood flowing. Out of the closet for now, they call me Sam.

MODERATOR

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #2 of 37 (2744 views)

Shortcut

Let's take this over to the LWR Forum

Can't Post |

I think we have the basis for a very good debate -- over at the Living, Working & Retiring Forum.Here's the topic:Fitting In. Can foreigners ever really "fit in?" What problems do returning Mexicans find when they return to Mexico?And here are the ground rules:
1. Absolutely no name-calling or pejorative language.
2. Respect the rights and dignity of others.
3. Maintain decorum.
4. Express no ill will toward others.
5. Libel will not be tolerated.And lest another think I'm anonymous, let me assure you that I'm not. Simply sweep your cursor over MODERATOR, and you'll find my e-mail address, which discloses my name.

Jalisciense

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #3 of 37 (2744 views)

Shortcut

OK ,go in peace, I'll accept your apology.

Can't Post |

But learn the lesson and watch your mouth.
As an acceptance gesture I am going to give you some advise: Go find help to solve your identity problem and then try to make some friends in Mexico -if your plan is to stay here for a while- even though I know it will be very difficult, given your attitude towards Mexican people. But, hey, we have been dealing with people(?) like you for a long time. Good luckP.S. Do you have children? a family? -What do they think of what you post on these forums? Do they know what you post? I thought so.

Dave

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #4 of 37 (2742 views)

Shortcut

Hey Sam, a curious Jew wants to know.....

Can't Post |

"and even Jewish due to my physical factions" Does this mean you favor Henry Kissinger or Sammy Davis Jr? And just what "physical factions" identify religious affiliation? Just curious.

Sam

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #5 of 37 (2745 views)

Shortcut

Mediocre Acceptance, Apology not to you

Can't Post |

Listen, Mexicano de Corazon y Alma, the posting was for the edification not of you, but of the true ex-pats. I guess I fit in between. Yes I have a family of 5, 4 boys, 1 girl. We have a beautiful home in Bugambilias, in the Villas. I feel accepted and in fact am the legal consultant / advsior of many Mexican companies. I am happy here and feel quite welcome, it is just that my family is ready to go home. I will not let Mexico go, and will be traveling between my home here and the home we have in the woods up North. My identity is somewhat clouded by my accent when I speak spanish, and no accent with english. I am thought to be from Argentina, Brazil, Spain, Middle Eastern (not popular these days) and even Jewish due to my physical factions. But I assure you that when I go visit my home town (pueblo)outside of La Barca, me tratan cien por ciento de mexicano. So to the people that matter, I am me, and as me I am happy, be I a pocho, chicano, or cream filled brownie (brown on the outside, and white on the inside). It matters not. Any you, why the extreme hatred of Gringos? Still mad over the Mex-Am. war? I still habour some resentment, but hey time heals all, and you?

Sam

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #6 of 37 (2743 views)

Shortcut

Hey Sam, a curious Jew wants to know.....

Can't Post |

No derogatory statement meant. I believe I am considered quite handsome. It is just that I have a olive skinned complexion (I love to sit in the sun for about 30 mins a day), am tall and slender and have a less than Mexican appearance. To be honest I never asked why the person saying I was jewish stated that...since I never took it derogatorily... hope this answers your query.

Jalisciense

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #7 of 37 (2742 views)

Shortcut

Mediocre Acceptance, Apology not to you

Can't Post |

I have no problem with gringos or any other foreigner, in fact I have travelled a lot and enjoy other cultures and other people. But I certainly dislike people with certain attitudes.For instance, I don't like people like you. Descendants of Mexican peasants who migrate to the north, mostly poor, illiterate, peasants who sometimes don't even speak spanish and still practice a mix of religion and voodoo. Read carefully, I am not saying that I don't like this kind of people, but their descendants, who are raised in a foreign culture and distort what Mexican culture and people really are. The mixture of the subculture in the poor latino barrios in the American cities and the lack of education and the superstitions and strange beliefs of the migrant peasants generate a rare hybrid with a set of values unrecognizable to real urban Mexicans.
Then, when the descendants of these migrants come to Mexico, they usually come posing like gringos, but to middle class Mexicans they look and sound like illiterate peasants who have not learned to speak in spanish yet. These pochos usually have a vindicative and resentful attitude, like if the Mexicans who stayed in their country were to blame for the poorness and illiteracy of these people's ancestors. In your postings you display many of those attitudes, resentment, and identity conflicts. You brag and show off looking for attention and acceptance from others. This behaviour is typical and representative of your subculture. To be fair, it's not really you, the person, whom I dislike. But what you represent with your attitude. It's you the resentful, not me. Do some introspective sincere reasoning, and you shall find the answers.

Guillermo

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #8 of 37 (2744 views)

Shortcut

Mediocre Acceptance, Apology not to you

Can't Post |

Dju are right on, Holmes. I am like that. Fortunately, my mexican grandmother married a German, and my mother married an Okie, so that makes me white. I feel sorry for many of my Mexican American family and friends for the reasons you named. They should realize they are Americans. Many "reas" Mexicans would like to change places with them -- speaking English and being American citizens. Asi es la vida. It´s up to the chicanos to grasp their own pride and assert themselves for who they are -- good people. They should also take advantage of the innumerable educational opportunities in Calif. They can be as successful as they want, albeit with some unearned obstacles. They are not Mexicans, they are latino Americans with the same intelligence and a better work ethich than your typical white American. Much better than the Asians, too, but one has to acknowlege the superior ambition and potention of the Asians. That´s life in America.

Mereje

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #9 of 37 (2742 views)

Shortcut

Mediocre Acceptance, Apology not to you

Can't Post |

I think the problem is that chicanos or 2nd generation Mexican Americans have a culture of their own. What happens is that they are mistaken for Mexican because they look Mexican and may have a few things in common with Mexicans, but a lot of them (not all) don't like Mexicans or gringos. They may understand spanish but don't like to speak it, except for a few words here and there.You said, "when the descendants of these migrants come to Mexico, they usually come posing like gringos, but to middle class Mexicans they look and sound like illiterate peasants who have not learned to speak in spanish yet". I had some friends like that. They had never been to Mexico, and were afraid to go visit because they had heard all kinds of stories about things that happen in Mexico. Their Mexican father had left their chicana mother when they were very young. They heard nothing about him until they were in their late 20's and 30's and tried finding him. They found out that he came to work in California every summer and had another family in Mexico. When they finally went to Mexico, I went with them. I had to interpret for them because they were embarrassed to speak what little spanish they knew. But when they were growing up, they were discrimated against by the gringos in the school and neighborhood. They got in trouble at school if they got caught speaking spanish. Yet they didn't fit in with the Mexicans that came to work in the fields around the area where they lived. Each person has to decide if it is important to them to try to become more Mexican. Afterward they started putting forth the effort to improve their spanish so they could communicate with their brothers and sisters better and write letters to them.I agree that some of them don't want to be mistaken for Mexican or try to appear as gringos, but some of them truly don't know too much else.
It is not their fault that their parents or grandparents decided to come to the US. I have nephews and nieces who were very young when their parents brought them from Mexico or they were born here. They have visited Mexico two or three times since then, but can't be expected to know much about the culture or about what a true Mexican is or how they should act. They get a little of it from their parents, but usually their parents are busy working and before they know it the kids have their own life and friends. They speak to them in Spanish and the kids answer in english. It is a known fact that when families immigrate to other countries, there are a few generations that have identity problems. They feel they don't fit into one culture or the other because they are different from both. They must make a choice as to which culture they are going to embrace. Sometimes it takes a while to come to the conclusion that that is what they need to do. In the mean time, they may have an attitude as you describe above. They may always have that kind of attitude and maybe their sons will have an easier time deciding. In the meantime there isn't much you can do.I have seen many chicanos who really don't like Mexicans or gabachos and really discriminate against them. I worked for some chicanos who the Mexicans called "oreo cookies". They feel like they don't fit in to either culture and many times do not like to be mistaken for a Mexican.Just my opinion and experience.

Jalisciense

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #10 of 37 (2743 views)

Shortcut

You are right

Can't Post |

"There´s no need for true anger between you, Sam or me"
I have nothing personal against you or Sam. And when somebody speaks with honesty and is reasonable, I can be reasonable too. I admit that I was upset by the original postings by Sam. So I confronted him in a way that, I knew, would hurt him. I went after him with all ("Duro y a la cabeza"). I was unnecessarily rude to you too, so I apologize for that, as well as for the personal offenses I might have directed to you or Sam.Saludos Jalisciense

Jalisciense

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #11 of 37 (2743 views)

Shortcut

Mediocre Acceptance, Apology not to you

Can't Post |

I agree with you when you say that Mexican-americans belong to a culture of their own, a separate one from Mexicans and Americans. And agree also when you say that "some of them truly don't know too much else". They get lost in their paradoxical upbringing : being raised with an arcane culture's ways and its values system, while living in the most modern country in the world. That's a tremendous cultural shock, and very few overcome it.Yes it is not their fault, but once you become a young adult, you do with your life what you want it to be. You take responsibility for yourself and your life.They can improve with education, but sometimes beliefs and values are so deeply ingrained that the outer layer of superficial "education" does not penetrate enough to change those beliefs and values.

Bill

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #12 of 37 (2742 views)

Shortcut

Mediocre Acceptance, Apology not to you

Can't Post |

Jalicense -- your words ring true with me. I always admired and loved most my latino (of Mexican heritage but now Americans) relatives dearly and the values they instilled in me are priceless. Even the machoism which other Americans can´t grasp but which gives me self pride for not selling out. Why would a professional man like me move to Mexico? Because I love it and feel a part of it. There´s no need for true anger between you, Sam or me. It´s el machismo. Which is good. I met Sam after some humdinger (there´s a good Mexican word from my Okie father) exchanges and we became friends because we thought alike and had the same root values. I think you do, too. Muchas veces,lo que necesita un varon son huevos. Y tal vez una copa. ¡Qué no? Adios. William (Prefero Guillermo but not a full blood so I´m stuck with an English name.)

Sam

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #13 of 37 (2743 views)

Shortcut

Mediocre Acceptance, Apology not to you

Can't Post |

Sorry for not replying, but I was in Chapala for the Grito. Anyway I am back. To our esteemed Jalisciense, I can only say "when will you stop being wrong"? One, I was not raised in a barrio. Two, I did not suffer discrimination. Three, I have a doctorate and its underlying degrees. Get something right, please! What my anger was about, initially, was the treatment that the humble receive here in our country. The reason for the apology is that I have realized that the ex-pats, while sometime caustic, treat the humble better than the poor "rich" (non liquid) like our person referenced above. It is possible that he MAY be Mexican, MAY be wealthy, but I doubt both. But let’s say for sake of argument that you are who you say you are. You are worse than any import. You are cheap, about two decades behind in your fashion sense and you perceive superiority by virtue of which womb you emerged. You probably have a drinking problem and all you properties are titled in your father’s or mother’s name. You exist by virtue of your own image. Let’s make a deal like I did with Don and Bill. If you are who you say you are, let’s meet compare notes and if you are truly what you claim I will reference it here on the forum and you are proven right. But I doubt you will accept the invitation because if you are a rich Mexican, your non-liquidity prevents you from paying for the coffee (I’ll treat). Email me a place and time and we will meet. I am sure you will in a cowardly fashion deny the invitation and respond with your bellowed superiority. That is OK too. Like they say in the US “Money talks and BS walks” so put up or shut up. Email me Jefe para ver quien en realidad eres. Basura o joya. Yo estimo que eres basura. Unos de las familias de antes quien ni tiene para mantener sus falsas estancias sociales y económicas. Excuse the grammar and/or spelling as I write on the fly. I also work unlike my rich "cousin" above.

Bill

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #14 of 37 (2742 views)

Shortcut

You are right

Can't Post |

Saludos a ti tambén. I must be the masa that our abuelas used to make tortillas. Or may a drop of mexican blood (and I´m not full Mexican) is enough to make us take each on like gallos or perros. ¡Orale! I don´t know what it is but I do know Latin Passion para la pelera y las mujeres. Que Dios me perdone but I like a good fight. I was good in American football because I like to hurt the other guy -- even if it hurt me, to. What kind of logic is that. Not de un inglés, por seguro. Te deseo una vida que y prosperr. Bill (not Guillermo)

Bill, tu amigo de los Caballos

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #15 of 37 (2742 views)

Shortcut

Mediocre Acceptance, Apology not to you

Can't Post |

Dale tu adversario unos chingazos por la cabeza
porque los merece. ¿Requerda como encontramos cado uno? Era en curso the este tipo de peleo, pero ese "Jaliscence" tiene un demonio. A la vez, le concosco porque la vida es cruel and todos nosotros tenemos razones the ser cabrones. Todavia estoy a una distancia en los E.U. como tu sabes. Per un dia regreso. Necisito amigos como ti. Y, quíen sabe, quizas este Jaliscense tambien. !Orale, pues y nos vemos, compadre y caballero.¡ BillP.S. We both have advanced degrees so if this vato wants to take the two of us on, I welcome the opportunity. Adios, Licenciado

Georgia

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #16 of 37 (2742 views)

Shortcut

";Arabs are animals";????

Can't Post |

Bill, you are right about one thing: love is ALWAYS the answer. So, let me share something with you: my family is a mixed-up multicultural hodgepodge of Spaniards, Americans, and South Americans. Fourteen years ago, my oldest son was assassinated by arab terrorists. But, I still don't believe that arabs are animals. I think maybe love is the answer.

Bill

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #17 of 37 (2741 views)

Shortcut

To Georgia et al

Can't Post |

The Mexican and American relationship is unique. I am on both sides of the track. I'ts almost as complex as the Jews and Palestinians. I said complex not niolent becuase the Arabs are animals. In grew up in a town with Mexicans, Americans and Americans-Mexicans. There was no real hatred, just economic and cultural differences, made worse by the proximity of Tijuana which served as a brother for Americans for many years. The image still persists, even though TJ has cleaned up the city and is probably as safe as Santa Ana or L.A. to go out at night. The new issue is immigration. White paranoia is moving in. \i say open the borders, of course checking for criminal and other undesireables, of which there are more in the U.s. Dear, it's complex. but let me end with this little story.My mostly white, affluent daughter dated a poor first generation Mexican kid through high school. They were serious but my daughter told Juan she would never marry him unless he got his college degree. This boy was on the verge of flunking out of high school. He not only picked up his grades and graduated high school, they now have two Mexican American grandchildren of mine, my son in law is in a professional job and is studying for his master's degree. \My daughter, by the way, graduated from UCLA and plicked up a master's at San Diego State. I think maybe love is the answer. Bill

Georgia

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #18 of 37 (2741 views)

Shortcut

My two cents....

Can't Post |

Why is there a need to be one or the other? What is the objection to Mexican Americans -- or whatever name you choose to put -- being different from Mexicans as well as Americans? I suspect that many of us on this forum, like myself, have lived in many different places throughout the world. I embrace differences. That is what gives texture to life. Perhaps education is not as valuable to these people as it is to you. People don't have to have the same viewspoint to be enjoyed -- and I find your point of view interesting and provocative. So, I'll ask you, what is the source of your discomfort? Why is this attitude of Mexican/Americans important to you?

Jalisciense

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #19 of 37 (2741 views)

Shortcut

I am sorry

Can't Post |

Georgia,I was out of town, excuse me for the delay in my response.First, I agree completely with your statements. Then, to answer your questions. I have no discomfort at all. And the Mexican-American issue is importan to me only when somebody pretends to portray himself as a Mexican when he really is not. When somebody launches a diatribe against Mexico and the Mexicans. When somebody is misrepresenting Mexicans. This self-described, "Educated Mexican" started his diatribe describing Mexicans as mean, non-trustworthy people. And then followed agreeing with an attack launched against Mexicans by another self-described Mexican-Americans. I just had to put both in their respective place. As simple as that. If they need help to overcome their identification/filiation problems, or their inferiority complex, then they should seek that help, instead of venting their resentment in this forums.Saludos GeorgiaJalisciense

Bill

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #20 of 37 (2741 views)

Shortcut

To Georgia et al

Can't Post |

Georgia

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #21 of 37 (2741 views)

Shortcut

Estadounidense, then, but it sounds dumb

Can't Post |

In a previous post I mentioned what, to me, is a problem of "political correctness." Mexicans come from the United States of Mexico, Brasilians from the United States of Brasil. And from the United States of America we get......what? The term "American" in the context in which it was presented is clearly understood. Why make an argument where none is necessary?

Bill

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #22 of 37 (2741 views)

Shortcut

My two cents....

Can't Post |

"Mexican-Anericans" are Americans and Latinos. Latino is the operative word. Latino America is full of Latinos (Jews, Armenians, etc.) Mexican Americans are latino in blood, American and "Mexican" in culture. The operative word again is American. My Mexican American uncle landed at D-Day. His brother, my other uncle, was on Iwo Jima. Others were in he Navy. What does that tell you? They are American as apple pie with enchiladas on the side. They are not Mexican, they are and were AMERICANS.

Jalisciense

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #23 of 37 (2740 views)

Shortcut

My two cents....

Can't Post |

Georgia,I will respond to you soon, but now I have lo leave.

Bill

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #24 of 37 (2740 views)

Shortcut

Estadounidense, then, but it sounds dumb

Can't Post |

Why the division
Because of the have nots. The have nots want what the have have. The haves will do anything to keep what they have. I've rich Mexcsnd in high plasces and we all know about poor white trash. MOMEY AND POWERWhy did Germany invade Eurupe and Japan attack us. It wasn't over race.

Sam

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #25 of 37 (2740 views)

Shortcut

Acceptance, Question for Sam (El Mexicano)

Can't Post |

Well if my own experience is any indication, I felt a layer of cautiousness when I first arrived. I kinda felt like a "revenuer" (tax collector) in back woods Kentucky. I was viewed with awe, yet kept at a distance. As time went on and I PROVED by birth-certificate and bringing the civil registrar of my home town to declare before the Ministerio Publico that I was born here, then the ice began to melt. After about two years here I started to make frineds not only with the influential mexicans, but also with the humble. I looked and I saw and I did not try to appease, I tried to understand. Being born in a rancho with little financial resources let me know wihtout doubt that there but for the grace of God go I. This revelation made me accept the deficiencies we encounter here. US time is in the US. Mexican time is here. If you are Gringa and your husband is mexican, if all goes well your being gringa is hardly noticed. But if your husband fails or the mariage goes bad it will be attributed to "she was a gringa" "we all know how they are". Will you ever be fully accepted? Maybe at the closest level to which a foreigner can get. But the inside is the covenant of the lineage of being Mexican. I love my country and am sad that my family is ready to go back. But I will continue here, and my 17 year son will also return once he finishes college. Sam and Co. are here to stay. Hope this helps.

1 2 View All