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elcomputo

Apr 14, 2004, 7:15 PM

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SMA Sidewalks

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Much comment has been made on the difficulty of navigating the cobblestone streets of SMA, especially for us oldsters. And truthfully, I've found that these streets are no place for anyone wearing moccasins to walk.

But, uncomfortable though they may be, there are two even worse places to walk in this town. One is the town's sidewalks.

The broken paving is bad enough but, at least for me, this can generally be avoided. What gets to me are the booby traps. Today, on Refugio, I about broke my arthritic big toe on a barely perceptible stoop that was the height of one brick. (In point of fact, it WAS one brick.) Then, about an hour later, on the same street, I banged the same toe on a similar stoop.

These sidewalks are about 15 inches wide, so it's difficult to navigate a barrier taking up about 10 of those inches -- especially when it's practically invisible! The big steps I can avoid. Those tiny ones I can't even see!

I have also twisted my ankle on the opposite unnatural formation -- the entrance to a garage or doorway that is below sidewalk grade -- a sudden dip in the sidewalk. Or that other little surprise package, a step in the sidewalk. I know those have sent people sprawling.

The only defense for these things is to keep your eyes glued to the ground. How sad to have to do that in a place where there is so much to see all about you!

The other hazard is the unpaved street or path, particularly where it goes downhill. I don't know what happened here to turn the soil into the character it has. (I suspect it was years of cutting down trees for construction and firewood, leaving the soil to erode.) But these areas are covered with loose, very dry, and very slippery fine soil. I have fallen in these areas at least 10 times since I've been here. Unfortunately, it's too often the case that they are impossible to avoid.

So, while SMA is one of the best places on this continent to ambulate on eye-pleasing leisurely strolls, it also has to be one of the most dangerous places on earth for anyone with osteoporosis.

Carol Schmidt

Apr 14, 2004, 10:28 PM

Post #2 of 23 (2791 views)

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Yes, I have warned people who have written wondering how SMA would be for someone in a wheelchair or blind, and I have had to be discouraging. I've fallen four times in two years and haven't broken anything yet, but I do worry about it. I read somewhere that the biggest fear of older Americans is falling, and I believe it--it's a personal daily fear rather than something that might happen in the vague future.

I gave up a sloppy pair of sandals I loved because I fell in them and no longer feel secure in open-toed sloppy shoes. Norma watches Mexicans walking here and they seem to lift their feet more than those of raised on smooth sidewalks. Trying to learn to walk with at least an inch clearance at all times is even harder than learning Spanish! It is a drag to have to watch where I walk all the time, but I've learned to do it.

Gringos often suggest that SMA should pave over its cobblestones and repair all the sidewalks, but this is a National Monument and it is supposed to stay as much like the original days as possible. Ironically, I read that the cobblestones were added fairly recently, maybe a hundred years ago or something, to enhance the old look. I can't verify that, or rather I haven't tried to verify that.

They sure are beautiful for artists and photographers though.

Carol Schmidt

elcomputo

Apr 15, 2004, 2:57 PM

Post #3 of 23 (2763 views)

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I think they could still repair the sidewalks and retain the authenticity. They have stuck light standards and such into the middle of the tiny sidewalks, and that hasn't done much for the authenticity -- or navigation. (But burying the lines would have meant having the streets torn up even more than usual.) But breaks in the pavement are not nearly as bad as the obstructions placed onto the sidewalks -- steps, stoops, and barriers.

I neglected to mention one other hazzard: rain on the sidewalks. When the rains start, you HAVE to walk in the street, no matter how deep the water, because the sidewalks are simply too dangerous. Those flat paving stones get very, very slippery when wet. They are made even more slippery by the heavy traffic through town, which has deposited a film of oil over them during the dry months.

Wheelchair accessibility is made even more difficult wherever trees have been planted into the sidewalks. As the trees grow, the sidewalks above the roots tilt this way and that. Picturesque, but difficult to get around.

Not necessarily a hazzard, but something else to watch out for: downtown, when someone hoses off their roof, watch out for cascades coming from the drain spouts. The water falls directly onto the sidewalk. Even if you're watching where you walk, you could get a sudden downpour on your head.

mariemcc

Apr 15, 2004, 3:34 PM

Post #4 of 23 (2761 views)

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Re: [elcomputo] SMA Sidewalks

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In Reply To

Not necessarily a hazzard, but something else to watch out for: downtown, when someone hoses off their roof, watch out for cascades coming from the drain spouts. The water falls directly onto the sidewalk. Even if you're watching where you walk, you could get a sudden downpour on your head.

Not the most pleasant experience, I'm sure, but possibly much better than in the Middle Ages when people used to heave their garbage out of the upper windows. ;-)

pat

Apr 15, 2004, 4:45 PM

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Re: [Carol Schmidt] SMA Sidewalks

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Carol said, much snipped, "Gringos often suggest that SMA should pave over its cobblestones and repair all the sidewalks, but this is a National Monument and it is supposed to stay as much like the original days as possible."

Careful what you wish for (I know the quote wasn't from you, Carol). On the news today, I learned a state legislator from New York is trying to pass a state law which will make it mandatory for every NY auto to have a breathilizer installed by the manufacturer. You must pass the breathilizer test for the car to start...... every time.... can you imagine such as that? Here in the U.S., the government is trying to take over, or legislate away, personal responsibility.

Pat

elcomputo

Apr 16, 2004, 9:49 PM

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It may legislate away personal responsibility, but it could also save the lives of a lot of kids. I have found that drunks typically don't have a whole lot of personal responsibility at closing time.

Regarding the SMA booby traps, they are unfortunately not limited to SMA's sidewalks. Perhaps we should start listing all the potential hazards. Here's my current entry:

This hazard is located, of all places, at the Hospital de la Fe. (Maybe they are trying to create some business; there was only one patient in there when I went by today.) There is a small green lawn outside the hospital. I guess they don't want you to walk on the grass, but instead of posting a sign to that effect or putting up a little white picket barrier, they have surrounded the small green patch with thin black wires that become invisible unless you're looking for them. One of the wires caught me today and sent me for a header. Luckily I came down on the thick green lawn (one of the few in this town).

I think Mexico could make some additional money by renting out the country to OSHA as a training ground -- things not to do if you want to avoid killing or crippling old gringos.

And speaking of that, I noticed a headline on the Mexico Connect home page to the effect that an explosion in a Mexican fireworks factory killed a number of people. I'd wondered how long that would take to happen during my tenure here, as the country seems to have an insatiable demand for firecrackers.

It appears the fireworks season began here in SMA today, as the explosions began about 7 a.m. and continued at intervals throughout the day. I have no idea who was celebrating or what they were celebrating, if anything. But I have no doubt I will be hearing the things go off, sending my dog into a panic, periodically every week now until next winter. It's part of the Mexican experience, and I have to say, though it can be irritating, it sure makes life here delightfully different.

One other thing that makes life sometimes beautiful here happened to me today. I passed a group of kids who were trying to get a rickety go-cart moving, despite a rear wheel that was bent on its axle almost horizontal to the axle. Can anyone recall seeing in the States any time in the past 30 years kids messing with an unmotorized go-cart? Nearby were more kids holding a home-made kite. Don't see many of those in the States, either. It appears kids here haven't been completely sucked in yet by the electronic video games. But then, I've yet to see any kids here playing any pickup games of baseball. I think those disappeared in the States about 50 years ago. So, I guess there's just the lag factor at work in the social order of Mexican kids -- unfortunately, they're following in the path of their wealthier brethren to the north, just several years behind them.

pat

Apr 17, 2004, 7:07 AM

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elcampo said, "It may legislate away personal responsibility, but it could also save the lives of a lot of kids. I have found that drunks typically don't have a whole lot of personal responsibility at closing time."

Personal responsibility means taking responsibility for your actions. That means suffering the consequences of your actions.... something we seem to be getting away from here.... Just as we seem to be getting away from a culture that encourages kids to entertain themselves, instead of planting themselves in front of a tube, as you pointed out

However, I had to smile to myself when I saw that you seemed to accept the demise of a culture of personal responsibility, on the one hand, while in the same post, you seem to be lamenting it's demise. It's pretty neat to be able to have your cake, and eat it too. :)

Pat

(This post was edited by pat on Apr 17, 2004, 7:09 AM)

elcomputo

Apr 17, 2004, 11:04 PM

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Well, you're talking about an ideal situation, and the world just doesn't operate as an ideal situation. The world is very imperfect.

In the ideal world, we would need no such laws because drunks would take responsibility for their actions. All well and good... if they DO take proper responsibility. But they don't. And most of them won't.

If we all took personal responsibility, we would need no police forces or guns in the world because all the potential bandits would take personal responsibility and not rob (or murder) people. No one would ever threaten another person. That would be personally irresponsible. There would be no violence. And we will all join hands and sing "Kumbaya."

But this is the REAL world. A drunk is NOT going to take personal responsibility, even if you were to give him the death penalty for driving drunk. Even if you were to draw and quarter him in the public square before hanging him. If you're talking about allowing him to make his choice based simply on the principles of having a freedom of action which would allow HIM to make the choice of whether to drive drunk or not, explain your freedom of choice to the orphaned kids of the parents he kills with his automobile.

Hell yes, I'm all for sticking a breathalyzer on the car. Stick one on mine, I don't care. I don't drive drunk. But as I recall, what they were doing with the proposed law in New York was to require someone who had already been convicted of DUI to put a breathalyzer on his car or forefeit his license. I don't see that as too much to ask any more than I see it as too much to ask that the freedom of a known child molester be restricted.

Is this proposed law, limited as it is to known offenders, also a major attack on individual liberties? If you think so, what you need to do is find an island and start your own society where there are no such laws, and probably no required taxes (leave it up to each person's personal responsibility to pay), no restrictions on personal freedoms, and no probably no government of any kind. The Libertarian dream world. Good luck.

We once had a time in the USA where restrictions on personal actions were severely limited, almost absent. It was called the Wild West. A lot of people believe those were ideal times. But there was a lot of open land where people could be wild (of course, this was after those people who moved into that open land took personal responsibility to severely limit the freedom of action of the people who had been living there before -- the Indians). And when farmers, tradespeople, merchants, and other exemplars of civilization with their women and children moved in, you began to see real restrictions on personal liberties. Taking personal responsibility just hadn't cut it as a way to build the community. Too many drunks, too many bandits, too many people getting gunned down. The new folk who didn't have all that much faith in personal responsibility brought in the police and judges and the law.

As for the kids sitting in front of the video games these days, do you think appealing to their personal responsibility to get out, play with other kids, socialize, and get some exercise is going to pull them away from the tube? Hell no. Neither is booting them outside and shutting down the tubes. They'll just go to somebody else's tube. The reason the Mexican kids get outside and play is because they can't afford the tubes. If they could, their butts would be smack dab in front of them, too. The only thing that will get them away from video games is the same thing that got us away from pickup baseball games: raging hormones.

To this old fogey, it's too bad so many kids are ruining their eyes and their health with the stupid games. But that's life. As long as the kids are taking the personal responsibility to let me go on being an old fogey, that's fine with me. If they don't, I'll call the law on them.

pat

Apr 18, 2004, 8:36 AM

Post #9 of 23 (2643 views)

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I suppose we will just have to have a gentlemans disagreement on the extent to which we are willing to surrender individual freedom here, elcomputo. Of course I am willing to live under the rule of law. But, I surrender individual freedoms reluctantly, especially when it appears that the individual or guoup trying to restrict that freedom is operating on the fringe of common sense.

The proposal to require all cars sold in the state of NY to come equipped with a breathalyzer strikes me as just that.... a state legislator who has a personal agenda thinking he knows best for the rest of us.... trying to force a ridiculous law on the rest of us (not that I personally live in NY). It just doesn't pass the sniff test (pun intended).

Having said all that, I would still invite you to sit down to a cup of coffee to discuss the issue further, because dispite this one small lapse in logic, you do strike me as a reasonable man. :)

Texwheel

Apr 18, 2004, 11:08 AM

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Wow, Geezer,

Did your comments strike a chord with me! Pick-up baseball. As a kid in Georgetown, Texas (just north of Austin in I-35)in the summer we would leave home in the morning, our baseball gloves hanging on our bicycle handle bars, and canvas the town (then about 5000 people) for kids for a pick-up baseball game. Or, we'd all just magically show up at the unused high school baseball field, or a vacant lot. And we'd play baseball...all day long.

No coaches. No screaming little league parents. We'd conjure up whatever type of game we needed to accommodate the number of players we had. And a lot of the time we played "rotation". After you made an out batting, you went to right field. And with each ensuing out, you rotated through all the positions until you batted again. The rules changed with the number and quality of players. An older big guy was worth two little guys. A complete democracy! We voted and agreed on everything. We had disagreements, but I don't remember a fight. What a concept!

I know this is not the point of this thread, but I read not too long ago of professional baseball people lamenting that even talented players today have not played enough baseball when they come up. They have to get more experience...because they have only played in "organized" baseball...just not enough repetitions which make certain plays automatic.

Now if I just could have thrown, batted and run well!
Tom Williams
Georgetown, Texas
Texwheel@aol.com

Carol Schmidt

Apr 18, 2004, 11:19 AM

Post #11 of 23 (2624 views)

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Two points:

First, I love to watch the kids entertain themselves in the Jardin, spending hours just knocking around a ball with a bat made of an old plastic Coke bottle. US kids don't seem to be able to entertain themselves with just a ball any more, and it's no wonder they're not as coordinated. But then I spent hours bouncing a ball off the house wall when I was a kid and I'm still not coordinated.

Second, an article in today's Herald on walking in San Miguel says that falling on SMA cobblestones may be more related to general health issues than to the state of the sidewalks. I was deathly ill last year when I was falling so much, and now that I'm back to health I feel much more secure walking. We oldies are on more prescription drugs and have more physical problems in general, which can put us off just enough to make us more likely to fall. Interesting.

Carol Schmidt

elcomputo

Apr 18, 2004, 11:41 AM

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Coffee sounds good to me.

But about that law. Are you sure that legislator wants to make ALL cars come with breathalyzers? Isn't it just a requirement that convicted offenders be required to get one as a condition of retaining their licenses?

The latter, to me, sounds reasonable. But the former does not. Those devices are expensive and would raise the cost of a new vehicle by a whacking great amount. When these kinds of things affect my pocketbook, that DOES have a bearing on my individual rights.

Makes little difference, though, as if it's the former, the bill has no chance of getting through the legislature. The auto manufacturers, for one thing, would not stand for it.

As long as I'm free to express my opinions, that's a pretty good amount of personal freedom for me. One of the things that irritate me about Mexico is that, it seems to me, this right is severely restricted for gringos. But given how the media in the USA are tightly controlled by a very small group, there's a de facto censorship up there that doesn't please me too much, either.

Thanks for the debate!

Carol Schmidt

Apr 18, 2004, 11:09 PM

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Freedom of expression is only limited for all foreigners when it comes to Mexican politics, particularly when it involves our becoming involved in trying to influence Mexican politics in any way. With Mexico's history, can you blame them?

Carol Schmidt

gpk

Apr 19, 2004, 8:07 AM

Post #14 of 23 (2568 views)

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Not exactly true--I'm not sure of which law covers it, but gringos can supposedly be deported for accosting a Mexican citizen verbally (or physically, I guess). Obviously, the Mexican citizen has to pursue this--which is very rarely the case--but it has supposedly happened.

Brian

Apr 19, 2004, 12:27 PM

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This might be what you are referencing:

Pursuant to article 350 of Mexico's Federal Criminal Code:

[t]he crime of libel will be punished with incarceration up to two years or fine of fifty up to three hundred Mexican pesos, or both sanctions, at the Judge's decision [sic]. >>> Libel consists of: to communicate with malice to one or more persons, the charges made against other [sic] physical person, or corporation, in the cases provided by the law, of a true or false event, determined or undetermined, which can cause dishonor, discredit, prejudice, or exposure to someone's scorn.

Carol Schmidt

Apr 19, 2004, 12:31 PM

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Accosting, as in getting mad at a Mexican verbally? As in road rage? I've only seen one incident of road rage since I've been in San Miguel, and it was me. Some drunk jumped on the back of our car when we were stupid enough to try to take it out the night of the running of the bulls, and I screamed him to get off my car. I thought he'd break our bumper, such as it was. We were stopped anyway, and finally he got off our bumper and came around to the window and looked at me, bleary-eyed, like I was nuts. Luckily traffic cleared then and we could drive off. Never realized I could have been deported for it! He was so drunk he couldn't have identified me in a lineup with orangutans though.

Carol Schmidt

Uncle Jack

Apr 19, 2004, 2:09 PM

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I'm not a lawyer and have never played one on TV. Maybe some of you smarter folks can help me out on this one:

Libel consists of: to communicate with malice to one or more persons, the charges made against other [sic] physical person, or corporation, in the cases provided by the law, of a true or false event, determined or undetermined, which can cause dishonor, discredit, prejudice, or exposure to someone's scorn.

Does this mean that one can say bad things about another if you do it in the absence of malice?

Does this mean that TRUE or FALSE you can never say anything unpleasant about the miserable, no good, thieving, drunken, child molesting SOB next door if he might take offense?

uj

Chumley

Apr 19, 2004, 2:19 PM

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Re: [Uncle Jack] SMA Sidewalks

Yes, Uncle Jack, as I understand Mexican law regarding libel or slander, the accusation, even if TRUE, can bring upon you the full weight of the legal system, such as it is. So the lesson is, never speak ill of or to a Mexican if you are an foreigner living on and counting for the good graces of immigration to leave you alone and renew your visa.

jennifer rose

Apr 19, 2004, 2:43 PM

Post #19 of 23 (2522 views)

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Denunciaciones and the absence of malice

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There are nuances and terms of art which are frequently just lost in translation of statutory language -- even if the original language is English. And the Mexican law with respect to libel is definitely a steroid-packed version.

Now, Uncle Jack, you come in just like my old clients used to back at the law factory, wanting something in black-letter (yet another legal term of art) giving you a green light. Just like the clients who wanted their lawyers do quote them the odds of winning. And we haven't even addressed concepts like the burden of proof.

Err on the side of valor and caution, and keep your mouth shut when it comes to saying anything unpleasant -- even if true -- about the guy down the block. You can't afford the legal fees to defend even if you are, as OJ would've said "100% completely innocent." Simply say that the SOB is "special."

And, BTW, the law doesn't apply only to Mexicans. AFAIK.

Uncle Jack

Apr 19, 2004, 2:53 PM

Post #20 of 23 (2516 views)

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Don't go away just yet, ms. jennifer....

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And, BTW, the law doesn't apply only to Mexicans. AFAIK.

Y'all telling me I can't say nothing bad, true or not, about no gringos neither. Possibly we should burn all the archieves of these forums.

uj

wendy devlin

Apr 19, 2004, 3:42 PM

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Yup, there's been plenty of 'unlawful' libellious comments slung around these forums...a fact that the moderators are more tuned to...than we...

...rank and file rabble rousers;^)

A few years back, Lakeside, someone(who will remain nameless) diverted water in some fashion, that caused dammage to people living below.

On these forums, a certain individual(also nameless) started calling this other person, some nasty names and making accusations. The web-jefe came on and warned everyone, how this sort of name-calling was libellious in Mexico and could result in consequences. He deleted the posts.

Some of the deletions on the forums, over the years have helped in part, protect us from unpleasant consequences. (Although I do not always think that our carrying-on on forums are of much interest to anyone but ourselves)

'Ignorance' of the law not being defensible, perhaps we are fortunate in some degree, that laws in Mexico are not always reinforced.

For me, witnessing several incidents brought the lesson home.

An elderly gringo(maybe 70's) in a fully loaded camper van was backing out of a parking space on a village street. He backed right into a Mexican woman and her child, who banged on the van's windows for him to stop.

The gringo stopped, got out of his van, and started yelling at the woman.

The police came immediately, clamped hand-cuffs on the gringo and hauled him off to jail. He was told to 'leave town' and never come back.

Another time, same village, there was a private birthday party in the eijido-run campground. A gringo husband and wife started yelling at each other at the top of their voices. A civil defense truck soon arrived, in the dark, with lights and siren. blaring. The men jumped out of the truck, grabbed the gringo, threw him into the back of the truck and drove him to jail.

The next morning, his wife went to bail him out, but first demanded an apology. The husband was still abusive. So she left him there...until the next day.

The couple were allowed to stay but were warned that they would have to leave town, if another incident occurred.

Oh, yah! I've seen plenty consequences to both 'name-calling' and disturbing the peace in situations involving Mexicans as well.

The jail-house 'rocks' most weekends. Saludos Wendy

Marlene

Apr 19, 2004, 4:29 PM

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That is a very funny story Wendy. I am still chuckling. The system here, while Napoleonic and something we expats aren't used to, has it's good points from what I have seen. (Especially in comparison to the court system where I come from)

Over Semana Santa, for example, my husband's nephew took my Cuñada's vehicle without permission while everyone was at the beach. I guess in limited wisdom gained in his short 20 years (along with a beer too many) he didn't think anyone would miss him, the new $350,000 peso van or the purses and wallets that happened to be locked inside. A huge family drama ensued as everyone fanned out, and he was eventually located hours later, but not before her calling the police to report it stolen. It took everything she had but she instructed that he be locked up overnight as a lesson. Lockup is not pretty in Mexico. I was very proud of her. This was NOT an easy decision for a Mexican mom. And not only that, the next morning there was a full set of instructions that he had to attend some sort of councelling for his henious crime. If he failed to attend the session he would be charged to the letter of the law with car theft. He was more than embarrassed but a lesson was learned by all and I am betting he will never take a vehicle without owners permission again, even if it is his mother's.

Carol Schmidt

Apr 19, 2004, 10:17 PM

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In the U.S. there is a great distinction between public figures and private persons, and those who have chosen to go public around one particular issue such as speaking up at a government hearing.

Someone who has chosen to go public in general, such as by running for office or being an entertainer, has very little recourse when something that might be libelous when said about a private person is said about the "celebrity." (Actually slander is when something is said, libel is when it is written.) The public figure must prove not only that something is false but that it was done with malice, and generally have some proof that damage was done to the public figure. such as financial damage by losing a role.

The private person is much more protected by law. The uncertain area is when is a person not a private person when taking a particular action, such as going to a demonstration or writing a letter to the editor or heading an organization like the Elks (open to the public but not really political). It is very complex, and juries don't always agree with a law anyway when awarding damages.

But in Mexico all new rules and laws apply. I've deleted posts when I thought the writer was making accusations against a Mexican business or individual or the government that might get us and/or the writer in trouble. But I understand there are no firm guidelines, and in general it is better to be safe than sorry.

Carol Schmidt, who can't believe this discussion is taking place under the thread title, "SMA sidewalks." Can we start new threads when a topic is so off the thread title? Thanks.