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Forums  > Areas > Jalisco's Lake Chapala Region


reg767

Feb 8, 2003, 12:12 AM

Post #1 of 18 (2297 views)

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Curious - Australia & New Zeal vs. Mexico Retire living

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I was wondering why so many North Americans (Candadians and Americanos) seemed to primarily consider Mex to retire (a fine choice - good climate, nice folks, proximity) apparantly without much thought to Australia or New Zealand. Are expenses & living costs similar there, I wonder? - in addition to language convenience, although Spanish is latin rooted so learning it is not entirely daunting. I understand that overall, good quality housing is actually much less expensive there (Austral NZ) than in Mex generally. This is especially true with respect to the US dollar in any event. Anyway...



johninajijic

Feb 8, 2003, 6:50 AM

Post #2 of 18 (2089 views)

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Australia & New Zeal vs. Mexico Retirement Living

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Australia and New Zealand (ANZ) are wonderful places to visit - even for an extended stay of months or a few years - with very friendly people and interesting geography, but like many places to live there full time for the rest of your life is a different matter. Just because the people speak English and maybe look sort of like you ethnically doesn’t mean an individual will necessarily like a certain place long term.

I can think of quite a few other locales which might fall into this category such as Kenyan highlands, Thai highlands, Indian highlands, Ireland, UK, and various other places in Europe. Moving to such places permanently are for “hard core” expatriates, and not suitable for most who casually “move” to Mexico. One can “test drive” Mexico as a renter with just a few hundred bucks cash in pocket and a modest income and “bail out” easily - as a renter driving down for a few months.

Cost of living. Remember that ANZ have socialized economies, strong labor unions, small populations and oppressive taxation of many sorts; heavy sin taxes on tobacco and liquor; expensive gasoline; expensive medical; expensive imports due to duty, long shipping distances, and limited demand; expensive housing at least for upscale housing which is much more costly than similar housing in Mexico, especially “running costs” such as taxes, upkeep, domestic help, and insurance; and anything involving human labor will be much more expensive than in Mexico.

Inaccessibility. A trip “home” is a long grueling jet lagged 15+ hour trip by air and is quite expensive - figure at least $1500 per person: no one or two day drive, or 2 hour flight, as from Mexico. You won’t get many visitors from overseas and won’t be making those casual quickie trips every few months back that many like to do from Mexico.

Familiar goods in stores. With NAFTA and proximity to the USA there are many familiar products and brands in Mexico that you will never find in ANZ - this is important to many.

Food. As in many former British colonies with small indigenous populations, the food can be pretty grim - as a long term proposition - to the American palate in ANZ for both restaurants or groceries. Restaurants traditionally were so limited in NZ that motels came almost always with fully equipped kitchens. Things are changing though with the influx of Asian immigrants and upgrading of infrastructure for tourism.

TV. Viewing is limited to many fewer channels (satellite, cable, or broadcast). Even though most will be in English, most North Americans would tire in a few months of the novelty of this limited and “different” fare. Mexico’s proximity to the USA means that they get “slop over” signals from American footprint satellite signals that you won’t get more than 1000 miles or so from the USA. Even cable TV at Lake Chapala has more American English programming that available many places overseas on satellite.

Shipping. Cost of shipping and duty for a household to ANZ could buy you a modest home in Mexico.

Immigration issues. ANZ welcome visitors and to a lesser degree third world refugees but there is not a high demand for immigrants from developed countries.


reg767

Feb 8, 2003, 7:00 AM

Post #3 of 18 (2059 views)

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Re: [johninajijic] Very Helpful - ANZ vs. Mexico Retirement Living

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John - your review was extremely helpful. Below is a "sample" budget of what 2 adults "typically" might need in Chapala area. Please review these expense items and voice your opinion whether or not you feel these are doable and reasonable. I of course know that folks can likely spend less and certaiunly can spend more. But, I'm lloking for simply a sense of what "typical" expenses might be. Many thanks and agin your review of the ANZ possibility was brilliant - appreciate it.

For 2 Adults

$USD





per Month



Electric

$50

No Air Condit - little or no heat

Sat TV

$40

premium

Telephone

$45

local & some long dist

Internet

$40

broadband

Cell tel

$35

Food at home

$285



Car Insur

$35



Car Gas/petrol

$100



Sports

$100

golf & tennis

Eat Out-food

$150



Health Insur

$45









Land Tax

$15



Home Rent

$425



Miscllns

$400



Home Insur

$15



TOTAL $US

$1,780

per month




reg767

Feb 8, 2003, 7:14 AM

Post #4 of 18 (2019 views)

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Re: [reg767] Very Helpful - ANZ vs. Mexico Retirement Living

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Perhaps this is listed better, Sorry I'm not adept at pasting these lists. Thanks

US$ per month

$ 50 ELECTRIC, No Air Condit or Heat

40 SATELLITE TV

45 LOCAL TEL with some Long Dist
  1. Internet, broadband
  1. Cell Tel
  1. Food at Home
  1. Food out, restaurants
  1. Health Insurance
  1. Land/Property Tax
  1. Home/Apartment rental


15 Home/contents - insurance

TOTAL - US$ 1,780 per month, for 2 adults – Chapala area



johninajijic

Feb 8, 2003, 8:20 AM

Post #5 of 18 (2070 views)

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Mexico Retirement Cost of Living Estimates

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Well, I find these “add em up” cost of living estimates of limited value for two reasons.

One, every personal situation is different. Some have more income than others. We all have different expectations. Some are happy to hunt down a $350 “rough” rental and fix it up while others are unhappy with a $1500 rental.

Secondly, these “lists” of expense items often omit more than they list. Rarely do you get to see a grand total what people are actually spending - instead we see these short itemized lists of selected expenses. I rarely see replacement appliances, computers, automobiles, out of pocket major medical emergencies, home furnishings, home repairs, etc. on these lists. They might be “one time” expenses but their cost needs to be “averaged in”. And what about gifts to grandchildren, travel to the USA, and trips “to the beach”? Almost all couples here own a car. And many have a second car. Reading material. Cable TV. Satellite TV. Internet service. Computer repair. Long distance telephone. Hobbies. Booze. Cigarettes. Pets. Vets. Entertaining. Charitable donations. Severance pay. Visa expenses. Household shipments. Mail order. Dental. Exterminator. Mail box fees. Membership fees. Recreation expenses. Expeditor fees for visas, insurance, car matters, shipments. Car repair. Property taxes. Medicine. Car taxes. US income taxes. Tax preparation. Personal care. Courses. Gardening. Water bill. Insurance. Legal expenses. Homeowner association fees. Security service fees. Holiday expenses.

The list goes on and on and it all adds up. Few gringos here just hole up in a cheap rental without upgrading it, never travel, walk or bus instead of owning a car, shop mainly at the tianguis and consider their “luxuries” cable TV, a maid a few hours a week, the weekly newspaper, and one meal out a week at California or Salvador’s.

Food expense is often grossly underestimated. Sure, eating is not too expensive here if you eat lots of fresh produce and local butcher shop meat prepared at home. But the reality of it is that many expatriate seniors shop at Superlake for the canned, boxed, and frozen which is expensive in Mexico (whether imported or not) and at Tony’s for meat - and complain about the prices! - , and often they eat out a lot. Eating out is cheap here per meal but many eat out a lot more here than they ever would in the USA.

I tell people to plan on overall cost of retirement living in Mexico to be the roughly same as in the USA in a “normal” place without inflated prices (e.g., not Hawaii, many parts of California or the Northeast, etc.). Then if you are lucky you might have a “buffer” to make it doable in Mexico.

Sure, many things are cheaper in Mexico but you need to look at the grand total of what most American retirees actually spend to get a handle on the overall expenses.

And for all the talk about it, many seniors just can’t be bothered with the hassle and inconvenience of doing many things “the cheaper way”. These “cheap living” myths are interesting in theory but few do it by choice and many who have to are not very happy about it. If saving money was the primary goal, many would be happier in the USA and at less expense living in a used trailer in a rural part of the southern USA.


cprallen

Feb 8, 2003, 6:13 PM

Post #6 of 18 (1930 views)

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Re: [reg767] Curious - Australia & New Zeal vs. Mexico Retire living

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Certainly many seniors live in a country club environment, just as they do in the US. Obviously we are not talking that kind of lifestyle here. Your budget sounds quite doable to me. Many of the items mentioned in the last post were already factored into your budget and I'm sure your aware there will always be emergencies. That's why you have a $400 misc. Sure, there may be times when you'll have to give up some of your sports budget and rein in because of an appliance breakdown or a computer repair (as if these things happen regularly) an emergency dental visit, or an auto repair, but if you watch your money as I do, you could even get back to the US once a year and to the beach on occasion. And no, I don't think a trailer in the south is an answer, in fact I personally find that suggestion offensive.


Dave C.

Feb 8, 2003, 8:14 PM

Post #7 of 18 (1917 views)

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Re: [reg767] Curious - Australia & New Zeal vs. Mexico Retire living

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I've been searching the web for info on the monthly income required by law for a foreigner to go and live without working locally in various countries, mainly Latin ones. Here's a list of the figures I found (Some figures may not be current; some vary with exchange rates; amounts shown are in US dollars as of January 2003):
Argentina: $603 (retiree) or $754 (non-retiree).
Australia: $2250.
Bolivia: No info found.
Brazil: $2000.
Chile: $909.
Colombia: proof of pension (retiree) or $1359 (non-retiree).
Costa Rica: $600 (age 65 or more) or $1000 (age under 65).
Dominican Republic: proof of enough income to live on.
Ecuador: $774.
El Salvador: No info found.
Guatemala: proof of enough income to live on.
Honduras: $600 (retiree) or $1000 (non-retiree).
Mexico: $1005.
Nicaragua: proof of enough income to live on.
Panama: $600.
Paraguay: proof of enough income to live on.
Peru: proof of pension.
Portugal: proof of pension (retiree) or proof of enough income to live on (non-retiree).
Spain: $834.
Uruguay: $500.
Venezuela: $1000.

As for New Zealand, I understand you may have to invest several hundred thousand dollars there to get in unless they change the law to make it easier. Australia seems to be easier to get into, but many retirees don't have $2250 a month of income, so Latin America looks more doable for them.


reg767

Feb 8, 2003, 8:48 PM

Post #8 of 18 (1911 views)

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Re: [johninajijic] Mexico Retirement Cost of Living Estimates

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Well John, the problem with your advice is that my real estate taxes in the northeast US are about US$10,000 per year, car insurance with homeowner's coverage $4,000 per year and medical insurance $3,500 per year. There is some tax deductability of the property taxes but essentially we're talking about a $30,000 (USD) pre-tax amount to net US$17,500 after tax (just for the total of the 3 items mentioned above). Let's for the moment totally ignore all of the other items on the "add em up list". Then let me ask, what are some typical, general, usual costs that most people would likely and reasonably incur in Chapala area if one might take a poll, for: (1) Good coverage auto insurance, (2) Homeowner's insurance and (3) Real Estate/Property taxes on a purchased home. ??

Just for the sake of argument. I'll assume all of the other items (utilities, phone, food, etc.) cost about the same as they might in the northeast US. Regarding food, how much can anyone really eat; or want to eat for that matter? I won't be consuming cat food, nor would I like to be eating out at 5 star restaurants for 2-3 meals every day - clearly 2 extremes.

It appears then, on its face that an approximate, general expense budget of about US$2,000 per month for 2 adults in Chapala area may be a reasonable sum (give or take 15% on either side) to achieve a decent (I know it's subjective) living standard in that area.


johninajijic

Feb 8, 2003, 8:55 PM

Post #9 of 18 (1905 views)

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Fairy Tales of Another Sort

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These are just required numbers for visas and have nothing to do with money actually spent by expatriate residents.

Plus these figures are totally unqualified. For example, in Mexico is that number for FM-3 visa or FM-2 visa or renter or owner or per person or per couple? Every Permutation of the latter can result in a very different number. It might be about $1000 a month for a homeowner single with an FM-3 or it could be in the ballpark of $5000 for a renting couple on an FM-2.


johninajijic

Feb 8, 2003, 9:30 PM

Post #10 of 18 (1881 views)

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Re: [reg767] Mexico Retirement Cost of Living Estimates

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Sure, if you "totally ignore all of the other items on the add em up list", then you can come up with some fanciful numbers and delude yourself into thinking Mexico is a cheap paradise.

You are missing my point.

I refuse to quibble over the prices of a few items on the "list" to come up with low-ball estimates.

I have several respected, frugal, homeowning Canadian friends here who advise people contemplating "the move", to have at least $2500-3000 USD a month income even if they own their Mexican home. Sure, you can easily argue that this this number "might" be a on the high side but it's based on real life experience and not some dreamscape.

One can live in Mexico on $300-1000 USD a month and millions do. I won't argue about that. I just hate to see people move here and then get all upset and think they have been "tricked" by all this "live cheap" hype when they see that their $1500 a month just isn't cutting it to their satisfaction.

Why try to do such cost of living "analysis" about Mexico? I have never seen similar agonizing about internal moves in the USA.

I am totally serious and I am not trying to be glib. I know what $500 or $1000 a month lifestyle in Mexico is like, but few who have not really lived here for a while do. As they say, rent first and if you think you might be cutting it close to the bone, keep track of ALL expenses for a few years and then re-evaluate.


reg767

Feb 8, 2003, 9:52 PM

Post #11 of 18 (1872 views)

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Re: [johninajijic] Mexico Retirement Cost of Living Estimates

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I'm quite confused frankly. Who was discussing or even mentioning such an extreme number such as US$500-1000 per mo as being reasonable? - Not I. I am assuming that US$2,000 is a basic minimum; again generally speaking for most people wishing a reasonaby decent lifestyle - yes again I know it's subjective.

When I said ignore "for the moment" - I said for the moment, the other items, I simply wanted to isolate the cost of 3 important ones which are costly in the northeast US area - I have no idea of these things in Canada. As I said, I need to earn now pre-tax USD 30,000 to net those 3 expenses only, ignoring all other needs. In northeast US, we need close to $90,000 (pre tax) for a decent lifetyle - unfortunately.

Good car Insur - Medical Insur & Homeowners - and Real Estate taxes. What do you pay for these items in Mexico, John?

For my budget, I will assume that all other expense items - recurring expenses (TV, phone, utilities, internet, etc.) and extraordinary expenses (such as various car and home repairs, dental, etc.) will be basically the same (possibly overall 10% less) than northeast Boston-New York area in US.


johninajijic

Feb 8, 2003, 9:58 PM

Post #12 of 18 (1879 views)

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Re: [reg767] Mexico Retirement Cost of Living Estimates

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By the way, the three items you ask for prices on are pretty much irrelevant. Car insurance is about $150 a year for many - for those who bother with the full legal requirements on an average Mexican car. Rarely does anyone in Mexico purchase any kind of home insurance, so that might mean out at about five dollars a year - who knows? And property taxes can be $20 or $200+ depending on your home - but not oppressive. Such a "sampling" of expenses can give one a very skewed impression of cost of living. You are using American "gauges" to judge a foreign country - a typical pitfall.

Instead, why not just relax and and visit a while and enjoy without all this stressing? Do a "ball park" to see if it might work. But don't try to add up every last centavo.


johninajijic

Feb 8, 2003, 10:08 PM

Post #13 of 18 (1870 views)

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Fair Enough

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If you have a net income of $2000 USD a month ($24,000 a year), I might "give it a try". It will probably buy you more than the $7500 USD a month ($90,000 a year) in the Northeast. Who knows? It's so hard to "say" without knowing you or your circumstances and expectations, but I would hazard a guess that it might be worth it for you to give it a "test drive".

Please e-mail me if you want to discuss more in private.


Dave C.

Feb 9, 2003, 2:58 PM

Post #14 of 18 (1829 views)

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Re: [johninajijic] Fairy Tales of Another Sort

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The figures I gave are the minimum monthly amounts for a single person without dependents, just to give a rough idea of how it varies from country to country. Details vary a lot, for instance the amount in Mexico is much lower if you own your home there. The amount required if you have dependents varies a lot. And some countries are easier to get into if you have relatives there. Some countries' laws quote the amounts in US dollars, others in local currency. Most of the figures were found on the countries' government websites.


pedro naco

Feb 9, 2003, 3:39 PM

Post #15 of 18 (1815 views)

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Re: [reg767] Mexico Retirement Cost of Living Estimates

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forget jerry, reg, you will live exceptionally well on $2400/u.s if you purchase a home-that by the way is about $3800 can.-which is more than our pensions will be and we are secure in the knowledge that we will live at chapala for FAR less than we live in alberta,canada.

there are plenty of homes available in the under $100000 range and don't let anybody from ajijic tell you differently.

do some extensive research on your computer-then visit the area for a couple of weeks or longer if possible.

then if you like it move-but rent first-and it shouldn't take you longer than a wk. to 2 mths to find the house you want-closing may take a couple of months.

if somebody is living in the chapala area for what it's costing you, where you're from ,they're either independantly wealthy or just very stupid.


JimOfMex


Mar 5, 2004, 3:09 PM

Post #16 of 18 (1593 views)

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Re: [pedro naco] Mexico Retirement Cost of Living Estimates

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I'm retiring to Mexico at age 55. I hope to arrive there in April or May of 2004. At what rate has the cost of living in Ajijic gone up over the past few years? I'm trying to project my expenses. I need to make realistic plans. My current spreadsheet assumes a rate of increase of 0.40% per month.

BTW: There is a 78 page eBook for $20 by Dru Pearson. She has lived in Ajijic for several years. I found the book extremely interesting. She keeps track of all of her expenses for 3 months each year. She includes her entire budget in the book. She describes her very nice life style in a 3 bedroom, 3 story house she rents alone overlooking the lake. Her monthly budget was $1,100 at the end of 2003. The book is available from http://www.escapeartist.com/e_Books/e_Books.html It's called Retire In Mexico - Live Better For Less.


juan david


Mar 7, 2004, 3:25 PM

Post #17 of 18 (1491 views)

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Re: [jimOfBoston] Mexico Retirement Cost of Living Estimates

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In general your spread sheet assumption should be good. I'm sure someone will respond with published stats at a national level, but local info seems to be more word of mouth. Haven't noticed anything out of line locally except that real estate has firmed up quite a bit after a three year slide. Activity is high on both the sale and rental sides currently and my rough guess is that asking prices are up about 10% over last year. Others may have more accurate info. By the way, local real estate is still a fraction of the North East cities.
" let sleeping dogs lie"


ziret

Mar 14, 2004, 7:56 PM

Post #18 of 18 (1368 views)

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Re: [reg767] Mexico Retirement Cost of Living Estimates

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All I have to say is you may find your telephone or other communcation-related expenses being much higher than in the US or Canada. I think generally most other things seem about the same, labor is less, many consumer items are more. With no house payment and $2000 a month, there's no reason you couldn't be quite comfortable--depending on your definition of quite comfortable.
 
 
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