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DavidMTY

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #1 of 26 (6085 views)

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Past incorrect posts on "Dual Citizenship"

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Incorrect, oracledba, in your response that the two folks could naturalize as Mexicans and be recognized by Mexico as "dual citizens.". Mexico does not recognize dual citizens or nationals. It only recognizes Mexican citizens. If they are naturalized they will be required to renounce their US (or whatever) citizenship and nationality in front of the Secretaria de Relaciones Exteriores. That the US or other place stays mum and gives leeway is another issue entirely. It certainly is not a recognition by the US either. The State department tolerates by is not very accepting of this. And to them, the excuse is, "as long as they don't renounce in from of a US competent official we won't act, even though we think it is somewhat treasonous, they can tell other nations what they want for their own benefit, and we will grudingly assume they they are playing and maintain all their allegiance to the USA and to no other government." You cannot use two passports per the Mexican government, if you do, you lose your Mexican naturalization and revert to your old citizenship. Just because Mexico doesn't collect your old passport, doesn't mean the recognize anything. The fact is they don't. If they catch you using a US passport in Afganistan or anywhere else, they will strip you of your nationality. The exception is your original home nationality. They won't recognize it, but will turn the other cheek if you use the passport there, although at the same time they maintain you can lose the Mexican nationality for that. The reason for this is clear - it benefits the Mexican nation to have citizens able to legally enter and work in the USA without dealing with visas, and 'benefit' to the Mexican nation is what the Constitution and Nationality Laws are all about, though it might seem hypocritical, the posture allegedly is justifyable.<p>Best...David(MTY)



John P.

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #2 of 26 (6070 views)

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references to U.S. law/policies

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For people who want to see references to U.S. court cases, State Department
policies, etc. The guy on this website seems to have done his
homework. Would be interesting to see the Mexican version... if the
"using foreign passports" prohibition is written into the law or is
just SRE policy.<p>John P.


DavidMTY

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #3 of 26 (6066 views)

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references to U.S. law/policies

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Nice find, John, it does look like the webmaster of your sight has really done his homework. Using the links provided I looked up the point I am making which is current law in the Inmigration and Naturalization Act. The relevant parts to someone naturalizing in Mexico are the following, and at the end the saving grace making today's situation possible, part (b) which says anyone taking your US nationality away has the burden of proof on "INTENT":<p>TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part III > Sec. 1481. Next
Sec. 1481. - Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions <p>
(a) <p>A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality - <p>(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or <p>(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or <p>(4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or<p>(b) <p>Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily<p>Best...David(MTY)<p>
: For people who want to see references to U.S. court cases, State Department
: policies, etc. The guy on this website seems to have done his
: homework. Would be interesting to see the Mexican version... if the
: "using foreign passports" prohibition is written into the law or is
: just SRE policy.<p>: John P.<p>


oracledba

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #4 of 26 (6063 views)

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dual citizenship

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: I have always been led to believe that the US government officially frowns upon dual citizenship in the context of a US citizen becoming a citizen of another country. I also believe they have little to say about citizens of other countries who are naturalized as US citizens maintaining the citizenship of the country of their birth. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps their position has changed over the years.<p>The U. S. Government changed its position about this approximately 10 years ago, when they were ordered to do so by a U.S. Supreme Court decision. The decision was to the effect that a U.S. citizen who became naturalized in another country could only be deprived of his or her citizernship if the Government could prove that he had intended to expatriate him/herself. Merely adapting citizenship in another country, or voting in another country's elections was not sufficient cause, at it had been previously.<p>I am a U.S. citizen by birth, and a Canadian by naturalization. I was exposed to this myself, when the U.S. Consul in Toronto tried to deny me my U.S. passport. Using this decision, I appealed to the State Department in Washington, whereupon they sent the Consul a letter, directing him to return my passport, which he did. I still have a copy of the letter.<p>Thus, the State Department's possibly disaproving of dual citizenship, or regarding it as vaguely treasonous, is irrelevant.


Jim in Cancun

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #5 of 26 (6066 views)

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Present &quot;incorrect&quot; posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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<center><img src="http://www.mexconnect.com/jim.gif"></center><p>


DavidMTY

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #6 of 26 (6066 views)

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Link on State Dept. &amp; Mex. Constitution

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This link ought to help understand the State Department's current posture. While today, the chances one may lose their US nationality when acquiring the Mexican nationality, are basically nil if you are consciencious on how you do this, the interpretation in the courts, like Roe vs. Wade, is by no means something you can consider for your lifetime, and laws are not in place with any guarantees. A risk averse but not paranoid person, in my opinion might nix the double nationality decision for this reason. Likely things may improve regarding nationality recognitions, but the other possibility exists if the US begins to feel an erosion of national interests. Terrorists, bad economy, etc. influence this over the long haul. Thus, the State Department's posture is irrelevant today, but in its context, relevant tomorrow, thus one important factor to add to the mix to take into consideration when weighing the value of Dual Nationality. I say this because modifying nationality is not something to be taken lightly, is for life, as much as marriage, and a very important decision. By the way, citizens in Mexico: (1) cannot be convicted criminals (2) Must be 18 years old or more (3) must be Mexican nationals. Mexican citizens cannot vote in foreign elections. That is why I personally prefer to consider 'nationality', and not 'citizenship' in these discussions.<p>Finally, Artículo 37, A. IV. of the Mexican Constitution, is probably what motivates the SRE the require one to sign that they will not use a foreign passport, and other laws say that if you try to use your foreign nationality for some benefit for any goods (including real estate) or rights, you lose the goods or rights to the Mexican government.
Art. 37, A. The Mexican Nationality is lost:
IV. For trying to pass in any public instrument, being a Mexican by Naturalization, as a foreigner, or for obtaining and using any foreign passport.<p>Note: Mexico currently turns the other cheek and actually clarifies other Constitutional issues previously causing the loss of nationality, in the nationality law, making allowances for Mexicans by birth to acquire other nationalities elsewhere, but absolutely not use anything to do with them when it comes to Mexico. It is one sided as far as I can tell, as the nationality law do not extend these same dual nationality benefits to reverse situations, i.e., for Mexicans by Naturalization. This is a reflection of the "whatever benefits Mexico" philosophy I have discussed in the past. It is beneficial for Mexicans by Birth to acquire these things in the case of the US workers. But the reverse has no such compelling case, if you are a foreigner by birth. In practice there is probably no difference, but there is no law or case history recognizing dual nationality of Mexicans by naturalization that I have run across. Again, for the reasonably risk adverse person, food for thought. The internationally acclaimed corrupt Mexican judicial system can work wonders on people who have that almost uniquely American cultural attitude of Equality and Rights. I wish I could be the one to dispute the latter comment, but hey, this still is Mexico.<p>Best...David(MTY)


Doc

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #7 of 26 (6068 views)

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dual citizenship

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I have always been led to believe that the US government officially frowns upon dual citizenship in the context of a US citizen becoming a citizen of another country. I also believe they have little to say about citizens of other countries who are naturalized as US citizens maintaining the citizenship of the country of their birth. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps their position has changed over the years.<p>
: David:<p>: Most of what you say is "correct" whatever that means in this context but I would like to ask where you read, saw or heard "...even though we think it is somewhat treasonous..."<p>: You also said that "If they are naturalized they will be required to renounce their US (or whatever) citizenship and nationality in front of the Secretaria de Relaciones Exteriores."<p>: Actually the first step is to go to a Notaria Publica where they read the requirements to you in Spanish--including the phrase that says that you renounce any allegiance to foreign powers and give up your titles to nobility--and then you sign the big book in front of the Notario and copies of that are sent to Mexico City along with your reasons for wanting to become a Mexican citizen and other tramites.<p>: As mentioned in a previous link directed to you and oracledba, the most recent U.S. laws ASSUME THAT BY DOING THIS YOU ARE NOT GIVING UP YOUR AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP.<p>: HOW DO YOU KNOW OR WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE THAT "The State department tolerates by is not very accepting of this."<p>: And you comments like "And to them, the excuse is, "as long as they don't renounce in from of a US competent official we won't act, even though we think it is somewhat treasonous, they can tell other nations what they want for their own benefit, and we will grudingly assume they they are playing and maintain all their allegiance to the USA and to no other government" seem designed as an emotional and/or pyschological diatribe more than an effort to inform. <p>: Again, please inform what your sources are for "...You cannot use two passports per the Mexican government, if you do, you lose your Mexican naturalization and revert to your old citizenship."<p>: and..."If they catch you using a US passport in Afganistan or anywhere else, they will strip you of your nationality." More emotive language it seems.<p>: Just interested in keeping this on an objective level without flag waving or flag burning on either side. JMHO<p>


mzdaisy


Feb 28, 2012, 7:43 AM

Post #8 of 26 (3997 views)

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Re: [oracledba] dual citizenship

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This all has me baffled. When I got my dual citizenship, I didn't take oaths or anything like that. My mother is a native of Mexico and for that, I was able to take out my dual citizenship. This enables me to own land, work, and do business as a Mexican. When at first I got my dual citizenship, it was difficult at the border because if I showed my American passport, then they would ask for my visa, and for awhile I was taking out a Visa because I thought I needed it. if I showed my Mexican birth certificate, which was issued to me upon my receiving my dual citizenship, then they would ask me for my Mexican passport even when I was already in Mexico. I have a "cridential," Now, a voter reg. card, when I come across on land, I show it and it is sufficient and if they question me further, I show them my birth Mexican birth certificate. When I came by plane, I showed them my Mexican birth certificate and they said that it was proof enough that I was Mexican. In all the time I have been in Mexico, laws and things are always changing. Nothing seems to be in stone. Many officials scare people to get money out of them, but that is how I have been handling it for now. I have not been natualized and from what I read here, it is different.

Take Care!


mzdaisy


Feb 28, 2012, 8:03 AM

Post #9 of 26 (3984 views)

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Re: [DavidMTY] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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Here is what I found on dual citizenship. http://www.immigrationdirect.com/...citizenship%20mexico It explains the United States' position on the matter.


joaquinx


Feb 28, 2012, 8:38 AM

Post #10 of 26 (3974 views)

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Re: [mzdaisy] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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In Reply To
Here is what I found on dual citizenship. http://www.immigrationdirect.com/...citizenship%20mexico It explains the United States' position on the matter.


Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. See http://travel.state.gov/...citizenship_778.html
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.


Anonimo

Feb 28, 2012, 10:42 AM

Post #11 of 26 (3940 views)

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Re: [DavidMTY] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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What an amazing discussion thread, one that started during the Mexican Revolution, long before the Internet was invented.

¡Que milagro!

Saludos,
Anonimo


Rolly


Feb 28, 2012, 11:02 AM

Post #12 of 26 (3935 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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All posts existing before the last major overhaul of this website are dated 1919,
I don't know why.

Rolly Pirate


DavidMcL


Feb 28, 2012, 1:43 PM

Post #13 of 26 (3907 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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In the early 1900s, a small group of futuristic envisioners and inventors foresaw the phenomenon that we now call the internet. Some of them had children who eventually became involved in Mexconnect and during the development of MXC decided to bring forward some of the correspondence that the original group had created in 1919.

Thus the apparent anomaly.

Another more far fetched idea is that when the upgrade was done, there was an error in the coding which resulted in a number of posts becoming dated as being posted in 1919 and the cost to repair that error was prohibitive to actually doing the changes.

Personally, I'm going with the first explanation.

David
David McL
WebJefe


RickS


Feb 28, 2012, 1:58 PM

Post #14 of 26 (3899 views)

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Re: [DavidMcL] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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Works for me but you forgot the part about Al Gore's grandfather being one of the participants!


mazbook1


Feb 28, 2012, 3:09 PM

Post #15 of 26 (3880 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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THANK YOU for the link, joaquinx! Having this link should bring most discussions of dual citizenship vs loss of U.S. citizenship to a screeching halt. Very clearly stated IF you read the whole thing.


tonyburton / Moderator


Feb 28, 2012, 3:28 PM

Post #16 of 26 (3871 views)

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Re: [DavidMcL] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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According to Internet archives, this is the earliest MexConnect (then known as Mexico Connect) officially on the record:
http://web.archive.org/web/19961111011012/http://mexconnect.com/

Hmm... looks like MexConnect has come quite a long way since then!

By the way, I'm still waiting for my T-shirt - 6-8 weeks delivery or 16-18 years delivery??


(This post was edited by tonyburton on Feb 28, 2012, 3:29 PM)


Anonimo

Feb 28, 2012, 5:23 PM

Post #17 of 26 (3849 views)

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Re: [DavidMcL] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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David, thanks for that very creative answer.

Saludos,
Anonimo


mzdaisy


Feb 29, 2012, 7:46 AM

Post #18 of 26 (3789 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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Yes, I also saw this. It is a fine line, when it comes to dual citizenship. From the site I sent you, it says that the US permits dual citizenship from certain coutries. Mine is not because I just want to be a Mexican citizen but more because I have a Mexican born parent. I have never given up my US citizenship or taken any oaths. I have just accepted by Mexican citizenship as a birth right.


Aaron+

Mar 3, 2012, 11:38 AM

Post #19 of 26 (3600 views)

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Re: [mzdaisy] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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Sorry, your two posts so far on the subject confuse me greatly.

Your first posting talks about your first receiving Mexican citizenship owing to a parent being Mexican. Then you go through confusing info about what documents you presented in your border-crossing travels, but you are not clear if to US or to Mexican immigration. Not at all clear why you did not have both a U.S. and a Mexican passport, showing only the first to US authorities, and only the second to the Mexican authorities.

In your second posting, you write that the US "permits dual citizenship from certain countries" -- but not from what others? If another country does not openly or implicitly accept that its citizens can acquire citizenship in, say, the USA, that does not deny US acceptance of the individual as a US citizen (after meeting all legal immigration and naturalization requirements).


mzdaisy


Mar 5, 2012, 5:05 AM

Post #20 of 26 (3499 views)

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Re: [Aaron+] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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Hola Aaron,

I am sorry it is so confusing, The info I posted regarding dual citizenship, is what is on the US immigration site. It only explains what you read. To find out more on what other countries that except dual citizenship, you would have to dig further into it. I know I read up on this before I just can't remember, but Mexico is on the list for sure. The US does not look at dual citizenship as renouncing your country. The post I sent shows exactly what would be considered grounds for losing your American citizenship. Working for another government, etc. I have a birth right to my Mexican citizenship because my mother was born here. From what I understand, if you are an American, with no birth right, then the rules change. I have an uncle who lives here in Mexico from the US, married to a Mexican citizen but he does not have a birth right. So, he cannot own land here etc. Now if he wants Mexican citizenship, he has to renounce his American citizenship, which he will never do. But he still has a right to own business here only he has to abide by all Mexican laws concerning Americans doing business in Mexico.

As far as the paperwork I show at the border... I found that I did not need a Mexican passport as officials were asking me for when I crossed into Mexico, nor do I need to get an American permission sip to be in the country. At first, even though I had dual citizenship, they were forcing me to get a permission costing $22 to come into Mexico, even though, I am technically an official Mexican. I asked an official once, to explain exactly when I am considered a Mexican, because they were not excepting my Mexican documentation. He said that I am Mexican when I am in Mexico. So then I asked him why they make me get a permission slip as an American to be in the country. He told me because I show my American passport. So, he told me that when I am in Mexico to only show my Mexican papers and that would 'solve my problem and it has. When you show both American and Mexican documentation, it really causes issues. So now I just show my cridential when I come into Mexico.

I hope this has cleared up some of the confusion, I know it is complicated.


La Isla


Mar 5, 2012, 1:55 PM

Post #21 of 26 (3431 views)

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Re: [mzdaisy] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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Quote
I have an uncle who lives here in Mexico from the US, married to a Mexican citizen but he does not have a birth right. So, he cannot own land here etc. Now if he wants Mexican citizenship, he has to renounce his American citizenship, which he will never do


Mzdaisy, I am confused by what you have posted above. I have an American friend who's been living in Mexico for over 30 years, and a few years ago he became a Mexican citizen. However, he has not had to renounce his American citizenship. Why do you think your uncle would have to do so in order to become a Mexican citizen?


esperanza

Mar 5, 2012, 2:46 PM

Post #22 of 26 (3416 views)

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Re: [mzdaisy] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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MZDaisy, I became a Mexican citizen a number of years ago--by naturalization--and although I had to sign a paper stating that WHILE I AM IN MEXICO I will not claim USA citizenship, that paper in no way compromises my rights and privileges as a US citizen when I am in the USA.

I hold passports from both countries. Like any other dual citizen, I use my Mexican passport while exiting and entering Mexico, and my USA passport while entering and exiting the USA.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









gpkisner

Mar 7, 2012, 6:10 AM

Post #23 of 26 (3306 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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I signed the same statement re: not denying being Mexican while in Mexico when I got my Mexican citizenship. I asked for a copy, but they wouldn't give me one.


robt65

Mar 7, 2012, 8:07 AM

Post #24 of 26 (3282 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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Hello Mazbook,

While being “clearly stated” . . . . . . as far as it states .. . . . . . the numerous qualifiers such as "IF", "POSSIBLE LOSS", "WITH THE INTENTION", "CAN CAUSE" and other qualifiers, like any other political entity, muddy the waters considerably, which in turn leave a whole lot of doors open. Just my perspective.

robt65



mazbook1


Mar 7, 2012, 5:14 PM

Post #25 of 26 (3232 views)

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Re: [robt65] Past incorrect posts on &quot;Dual Citizenship&quot;

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Robert, That's why I used the term "weasel words" in my first post in the original (pirated) thread on the subject. They—the U.S. Dept. of State—really don't WANT folks to know that they can get dual citizenship without the hassles. Just as esperanza posted there are NO hassles at the time or later when entering or leaving the U.S. or México, as I and many other "Mexicanos nuevos" discovered when we became dual citizens of the U.S. and México. It just is NOT a problem, except in some folk's minds.

If you honestly still think there is some problem, for goodness sake don't pursue the option, but PLEASE don't whine about it.
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