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YucaLandia


Dec 3, 2015, 7:52 PM

Post #26 of 44 (14868 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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This thread is promulgating a bunch of erroneous information. Steve, you're usually right on top of things, but this time you are most definitely not.

When a person becomes a naturalized Mexican citizen, SRE generally (I won't say always, because apparently someone at SRE slipped up in your case) requires that person to sign a paper stating that he or she renounces CLAIMING American citizenship while IN MEXICO. The paper further states that the person is no longer entitled to US consular/embassy services WHILE IN MEXICO. That's it. The paper is not a renunciation of USA citizenship. The rational for requiring a person to sign this paper is that the person is now a Mexican citizen; it is against the law to claim to be a USA CITIZEN while that naturalized Mexican citizen is IN MEXICO.

The procedure for renouncing USA citizenship is spelled out here: http://travel.state.gov/...-of-citizenship.html

Again, the paper that the SRE requires you to sign is ONLY about giving up your rights to US consular/embassy services WHILE IN MEXICO. Renouncing your USA citizenship means losing all rights, privileges, and duties as an American--including the right to continue to receive Social Security retirement or disability benefits. The SRE paper is ONLY for the SRE, and only for the purpose I mentioned above.

Furthermore, when you exit Mexico, you exit showing your Mexican passport. If you are flying from Mexico to the USA, you will show your Mexican passport to the airline counter agent. That agent will ask for your visa to enter the USA; you simply show the agent your USA passport. When you enter (and later leave) the USA, you will present your USA passport as your official identification. Upon arrival in Mexico, you enter through the 'Ciudadano' lines and show your Mexican passport as identification.

If you travel to any other country, upon entry in that country you can choose the citizenship you claim--either Mexican or USA.

It's very simple and not at all onerous.


Hi Esperanza,
"Furthermore, when you exit Mexico, you exit showing your Mexican passport. If you are flying from Mexico to the USA, you will show your Mexican passport to the airline counter agent. That agent will ask for your visa to enter the USA; you simply show the agent your USA passport."

I just flew out of Merida in October, (destination Denver), I gave them my Mexican passport to check in, and United Airlines said "No, you cannot check in with this passport" ... definitely demanding my US passport. The ticket counter agent said that for me to board the flight under TSA's rules, they cannot accept a Mexican passport. They went on to say that without a visa, only the US passport counts under current TSA rules - which may fit your description(?)

The INM agent at the airport stamped my Mexican passport, so, I needed the Mexican passport for that step of exiting Mexico.


Re the renunciation:
My Yucatecan wife was with me during the 2 meetings at SRE and she says that they definitely required that I renounce my US citizenship - and have ONLY Mexican citizenship.

Rosen Law of Mexico says the same thing:
"You shall sign an affidavit stating that you swear loyalty to the Mexican Government and that you renounce your Original Nationality for purposes of Mexican law."


"Multiple Citizenship" Org says:
"
Renounce the citizenship of origin once the application has been approved. "


The book "From Migrants to Citizens" says:
" ...
aliens naturalizing in Mexico must renounce other citizenships. "


Maybe we are all confused ... as there was no escape clause of renouncing "only while in Mexico".

The July 2015 renunciation affidavit I signed at SRE was simple and general, with no "cuando en Mexico" loophole nor any "mientras en Mexico" clause ... ?


Can you show some direct citation or reference about a
"cuando en Mexico" loophole
or a "mientras en Mexico" clause
in SRE's rules or Mex law?

My understanding of what I renounced also fits with the Mex. Constitution's Article 37 prohibition of gaining citizenship in other countries.

??
steve


-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


tonyburton / Moderator


Dec 3, 2015, 7:58 PM

Post #27 of 44 (14866 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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"You shall sign an affidavit stating that you swear loyalty to the Mexican Government and that you renounce your Original Nationality for purposes of Mexican law."

- Surely, that is the point Esperanza was making ~ Mexican law only applies IN Mexico...




fishfrier

Dec 4, 2015, 6:23 AM

Post #28 of 44 (14843 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Steve. When you bought your airline ticket to the U.S.A. did you buy it using your U.S. passport number? Perhaps that is why the airline counter person said you could not check in using the Mexican passport only the U.S. passport.


(This post was edited by fishfrier on Dec 4, 2015, 8:05 AM)


YucaLandia


Dec 4, 2015, 4:47 PM

Post #29 of 44 (14808 views)

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Re: [fishfrier] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Good point and good assumption that I used a US CC.

While I have no recording of exactly what the check-in agent asked, my best memory is that she insisted that TSA has different rules for my Mexican wife (who has a visa to enter the USA), versus me, because I have no visa to enter the USA - which she said meant the TSA required the use of my US passport to be allowed to board the plane in Mexico ...under the Patriot Act - anti-terrorism rules.

Note the "Catch-22" that as a naturalized Mexican citizen, I cannot enter the USA without a visa from the US govt. ... but the US govt. will NOT issue me visa as long as I hold a US passport.

As proven below, both the US govt. and Mex. Govt. rules and laws are incompatible with carrying and using both passports, for US citizens born in the USA, who then become naturalized Mexican citizens. ...

Similarly, US citizens born in the USA, who then become naturalized Mexican citizens are prohibited by both the US and Mexican laws from voting in the other country's elections.

Neither of these legal conundrums ~ legal incompatibilities ~ are addressed nor covered by the non-legal personal opinions offered above by other reliable posters.
???

=========================
Re the presumption that the prior descriptions about renunciation of US citizenship were somehow not correct:
See US INA §349 ... Items #2, #5 and #6 ... to confirm everything I wrote above on US law & renunciation ... are factual and correct.

http://www.americanlaw.com/ina349.html


==================

Re the presumption that renouncing our citizenship to all other countries, both orally and verbally, as a required step of becoming a naturalized Mexican Citizen somehow only applies to our actions in Mexico - or is somehow limited only to Mexico:

For guidance and context: Go back to the original question about Article 37 of the Mexican Constitution - and focus on Items #IV ... and Item I.

"Article 37.
A. Mexican nationality is lost:
I. By the voluntary acquisition of a foreign nationality;

II. By accepting or using titles of nobility which imply submission to a foreign state;

III. By residing, if a Mexican by naturalization, for five consecutive years in the country of origin;

IV. By passing in any public instrument, when Mexican by naturalization, as a foreigner, or by obtaining and using a foreign passport;
"

Notice that "using a foreign passport " does not have any qualifiers...

There is no "escape clause" nor loophole for using a foreign passport for entering the USA...

The Mexican Constitution is clear for naturalized citizens: Use a foreign passport... at any time ... in any circumstance ... and we risk officially losing "Mexican Nationality" ...


============
NEXT: Consider what the Constitutionally-prohibited "voluntary acquisition of a foreign nationality" (a quote from the Mexican Constitution) means:
The "voluntary acquisition" clause exists in both US and Mexican law, with the same meanings and same negative consequences for violating the clause:

As I described above - in my earlier post (the post whose accuracy has been questioned):

The Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of 1986, Pub. L. No. 99-653, §18, 100 Stat. 3655

clarifies what "voluntary acquisition" means. It states that there is no dispute that citizenship is retained when the U.S. citizen performs an act of expatriation under circumstances involving duress, mistake, or incapacity negating a free choice.

Both Mexico and the USA discriminate between (free-will) voluntary and non-voluntary acts of being a citizen of another country.

For Naturalized Mexican Citizens - who have NO connection to Mexico by birth in Mexico nor by having Mexican parentage:
The Mexican Constitution clearly prohibits "using a foreign passport" ... and the Constitution also prohibits "voluntarily" being a citizen of a foreign country.

So, regardless of the Moderator's personal interpretations: Mexican law, SRE rules, and the Mexican Constitution prohibit what others are proposing.

Next, consider the USA's 1940 Nationality Act:
Section 401 (e) of the 1940 Nationality Act provides that a U.S. citizen, whether by birth or naturalization,

"shall lose his [U.S.] nationality by...voting in a political election in a foreign state."

...

Those are just several of the underlying legal principles that govern the realities of a US citizen who has become a naturalized citizen of Mexico, yet carries ... and uses ... both passports ....

and the hazards of that same individual voting in both US elections ... and Mexican elections ...

Which are why it really is a "Don't ask .. don't tell" ... "Wink, wink... nod, nod" situation ~


=========================
Going back to other's personal views about US govt. policy on renunciations:
In 1986, "Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of 1986, Pub. L. No. 99-653, §18, 100 Stat. 3655" ... and "INA §349": The US Govt. formally decided that the only renunciation that counts in US law, is if a US Citizen formally renounces their citizenship at a US Consulate.

That renunciation is then only accepted and finalized when the IRS officially agrees that we have no outstanding tax obligations, and that we have paid all "Expatriation Taxes":
https://www.irs.gov/...ers/Expatriation-Tax


Finally, I'd love to agree with the less-onerous personal interpretations offered above, by other posters, but the other proposals, so far, have zero (0) - no official citations of govt. law ... nor do they offer any legal references to support their personal ideas.

nor do their arguments address the fully-referenced legal issues (incompatibilities) in both US and Mexican law - described above.

???
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Dec 4, 2015, 7:40 PM)


esperanza

Dec 5, 2015, 7:23 AM

Post #30 of 44 (14770 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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The United States Department of State speaks clearly and without equivocation to the issue of dual citizenship, backing up every portion of the statement I made in my initial post. IMHO, the USA Department of State is the ultimate authority in questions of US citizens who have dual nationality. Please read what it says on this page, specifically addressing the issue at hand.
http://travel.state.gov/...ual-nationality.html

My lived experience as a dual national (USA/Mexico) is exactly what is described in the USA Department of State website. IMHO, Steve ran across an airline employee who simply did not understand the travel requirements for dual nationals.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









YucaLandia


Dec 5, 2015, 10:14 AM

Post #31 of 44 (14751 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Good good observations.

The US State Dept. website has good information, but it does not address the specifics of the law on dual nationality with Mexico, the State Dept website is not the law, and the website is non-binding => is not the final word. Note that the US State Department under Reagan, and then Bush the First, chose to ignore the 1986 law, and (incorrectly) continued to use their own internal policy of confiscating passports of some Mexico-USA dual passport holders until 1992, so there are years legal precedence of where State Department policies did not follow US law.

Rather than choosing a non-binding State Dept. website "policy" ... it seems better to reference applicable US & Mexican laws:
~ US INA §349 ... Items #2, #5 and #6,
~ the US Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of 1986, Pub. L. No. 99-653, §18, 100 Stat. 3655

~ ~ Section 401 (e) of the USA's 1940 Nationality Act
and
~ Article 37 of the Mexican Constitution.

Consider why following US law gives a different outcome than looking solely at the State Dept website's partial information:
The US State Dept website says nothing about voting ... leading us to incorrectly imagine that we can exercise our rights as Mexican citizens, with "dual nationality" .... yet, US law clearly prohibits US citizens voting in other countries elections.

One US Prohibition: A U.S. citizen, whether by birth or naturalization,
"shall lose his [U.S.] nationality by...voting in a political election in a foreign state."


One Mexican Prohibition: Article 37 of the Mexican Constitution clearly prohibits naturalized Mexican citizens (born in the USA and not born of Mexican parentage) ... from " ... using a foreign passport; "

... where "using a foreign passport " is sufficient legal grounds for revoking our Mexican nationality.


Conclusions:
~ The US State Dept. website information is very incomplete, and does not address key legal prohibitions of US and Mexican law.

~ There are over-lapping & contradictory legal prohibitions in each country and both countries laws ... prohibitions missing from the opinions presented above ... that can result in the legal loss of nationality in both countries & each country.

~ The current US-Mexico dual nationality realities do work ... as long as native-born US / naturalized Mexican Citizen follows a "Don't ask ... don't tell" policy.

Because(?) ... It seems that neither government has been interested in identifying, pursuing, nor prosecuting 25 years of US-Mexico dual nationality citizens who carry and use both US & Mexican passports - and who vote in elections in both the USA & Mexico.


I keep reporting all these legal prohibitions/issues that are on the books (but not enforced), because both the USA and Mexican governments are inexorably adding more and more layers of national computerized data-base checks ... especially as the USA adds & implements their "War on Drugs" ... "War on Terrorism" ... and the new Jan. 2016 IRS legal penalties of revoking passports for non-payment of US taxes.

As the US & Mexican government's nets get broader and tighter ... it can pay to know the Mexican law and know US law ...

because ignorance of the law ... is no defense ... if they finally choose to investigate & prosecute.

I simply would not want to become a poster-child for some new govt. enforcement action by either the UsA or Mexico.

e.g. I may choose to not vote in Mexican elections ... because US citizens are prohibited from voting in Mexico under 75 years of US law.

Sidelight: I strongly believe in personal privacy regarding voting ... so, I definitely am not questioning whether other Americans vote in Mexico.

"Don't ask, don't tell" has been a viable workable reliable legal strategy for 27 years (in multiple areas) ...
???
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Dec 5, 2015, 10:32 AM)


Gringal

Dec 5, 2015, 12:39 PM

Post #32 of 44 (14717 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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On the Social Security matter, please refer to:
http://finance.zacks.com/...t-benefits-7099.html


(This post was edited by RickS on Dec 6, 2015, 7:15 AM)


AlanMexicali


Dec 6, 2015, 1:38 AM

Post #33 of 44 (14680 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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" Renouncing your USA citizenship means losing all rights, privileges, and duties as an American--including the right to continue to receive Social Security retirement or disability benefits."

That's one that I'm very unclear about. I thought that a worker in the U.S. who acquired the necessary quarters of coverage, whether as citizen of the U.S. or not, was entitled to receive SS benefits whether in or out of the country.
At least, that's the way it was when I worked for the SSA.



I have met numerous Mexicans who had Green cards, worked in the US for years, some 45 years, here in San Luis Potosi. They collect SSI. They were never US citizens. When they left the US their Green cards expired because the rule states you have to reside in the US for 6 months in a 12 month period to keep your Green card. I do doubt they could collect disability or have Medicare if they don´t follow the immigration 6 month rule, but am not sure. It amazes me how many of these people, even some legally in the US since small children, never bothered to get citizenship.


Gringal

Dec 6, 2015, 8:37 AM

Post #34 of 44 (14649 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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It is a different question for Mexicans, but the matter under discussion was about U.S. citizens who formally renounce their citizenship and whether they can continue to receive SS benefits.
It's a very important consideration.


(This post was edited by Gringal on Dec 6, 2015, 8:38 AM)


esperanza

Dec 8, 2015, 6:33 AM

Post #35 of 44 (14576 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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This may simply add more confusion to the discussion about Social Security benefits, but at least it makes an educated attempt to answer your questions, Gringal:
https://americansabroad.org/...social-security-faq/

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Druxha

Feb 16, 2016, 7:35 AM

Post #36 of 44 (14307 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Good morning. I've read through this entire tread. YucaLandia, I do have a question for you. As you'd state regarding the Mexican passport beginning incomplete of stamps. Would this not create a problem when you go to renew your Mexican passport? A better question yet, has anyone flown back and forth to the US and has since renewed their Mexican passport? If so, were there any consequences for the missing airport immigration stamps with the renewal?


YucaLandia


Feb 16, 2016, 8:42 AM

Post #37 of 44 (14300 views)

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Re: [Druxha] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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As a Mexican citizen flying out of Mexico, I fill out a formal exit card (form) for INM that documents my leaving - which closes the hole that you imagined existed in Mexican citizen's exit and entry records. When re-entering, they have us fill out another INM form and stamp our passports - closing the loop.

Sidelight: TSA still wants US citizens information (for background checks) in their flight manifests/logs for flights originating in Mexico, so I use my US passport (as required by the airlines) to check-in at the airline counter ... and use my Mexican passport to show to INM when leaving. .. so, there's a little passport-dance for American citizens who become naturalized Mexican citizens ...

That dance has worked nicely 10,000's of times for Americans since 1993, when the US State Department decided to get on board with a 1986 law regarding this exact issue.

Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Feb 16, 2016, 8:47 AM)


playaboy

Feb 16, 2016, 1:31 PM

Post #38 of 44 (14276 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Why would a Mexican citizen have anything to do with INM and their forms?


Druxha

Feb 16, 2016, 4:06 PM

Post #39 of 44 (14257 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Yes, Yuca, there is that slip that is filled out. However, there would be no stamp of entering the US on the Mexican passport. How would SRE view that missing stamp? This is why I asked if anyone has ever done a renewal after the fact.


YucaLandia


Feb 16, 2016, 8:07 PM

Post #40 of 44 (14241 views)

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Re: [playaboy] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Why would a Mexican citizen have anything to do with INM and their forms?


I don't have a mission statement or formal list of legal responsibilities for INM or SEGOB, but SEGOB Secretary de Gobernación is the parent organization of INM, and this seems a reasonable function for Gobernaciómn - which functionally has this responsibility.

I've personally filled out the forms and it definitely is INM who collects and collates the information - as practiced for at least 2 years.

When I asked the INM agent at the airport collecting the forms about 2 years ago, they said that they were tracking Mexican's movements "for statistical purposes" (?)

Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


playaboy

Feb 16, 2016, 8:16 PM

Post #41 of 44 (14238 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Well as we all know, governments just love collecting information about everything for their statistics.

Yuca, do you fill out the same FMM's like RP's, RT's and tourists?


YucaLandia


Feb 16, 2016, 8:18 PM

Post #42 of 44 (14238 views)

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Re: [Druxha] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Yes, Yuca, there is that slip that is filled out. However, there would be no stamp of entering the US on the Mexican passport. How would SRE view that missing stamp? This is why I asked if anyone has ever done a renewal after the fact.


I think you may be putting too much focus on physical stamps on passport pages.

I understand that the electronic database information is their main tracking tool, as they log our exits and re-emtramces in their national databases. As I wrote above, the system has worked fine since 1993, which is proof enough for Americans who've become Mexican citizens.

Really, in traveling through England, Scotland, Canada, the USA, Germany, Ukraine, Spain et al, governments around the world do lots of things that make no sense to us ordinary folk.

Saying it another way, even though I'm a Mexican citizen, I'm not an apologist for the Mex. Gob. ... anymore than I was an apologist for Kissinger's and the USA's policies of illegal bombings and invasions into Laos or Cambodia etc.

One could ask Americans about the logic or reasonable-ness of 30 years of "trickle-down" economics ... shifting $3Trillion from the middle class to create 4X more billionaires ... or for the USA's 45 year War on Drugs ... for why Americans quietly accept that US doctors kill 200,000 to 210,000 with unnecessary errors (the 3'rd leading cause of death in America since at least 1990) ... yet there are no explanations for why these mysteries continue to exist.
;)

??
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Feb 16, 2016, 8:23 PM)


mrland

May 7, 2016, 8:05 PM

Post #43 of 44 (12415 views)

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Re: [playaboy] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Just made a weekend visit to the States my with family. Our two kids are Mexican born and hold both US and Mexican passports. The process was just as Esperanza stated: At check in my wife presented her Mexican passport and US visa; the kids presented their US passport and those particulars were entered into the electronic system by the ticketing agent at Aeromexico. Thereafter, Mexican passports were used to board the flight to MEX. However, at the MEX airport before the flight to the US, the kids and my wife picked-up the exit form for Mexicans (on the counter at the same place where the FMM forms are kept). The kids too, had to use that form; that is true as well for naturalized Mexican citizens. The forms were handed to the check in agent with their boarding passes at the time of boarding, not before boarding and US passports and visas were presented simultaneously. Returning they could all present their Mexican passports which are again entered into the electronic system by the ticketing agent. On arrival in Mexico they all pass through the Ciudadano gates.


(This post was edited by mrland on May 7, 2016, 8:44 PM)


viktoremski


Jul 27, 2016, 11:43 AM

Post #44 of 44 (10733 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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I recently received my Mexican naturalization document. I was not surprised when they asked me to sign the document stating that I renounce all other citizenships I might have. What bothered me more was that one might lose his citizenship for residing 5 or more years outside of Mexico. Not that I am planning to do so, it still shows discriminating mentality of those who came up with this article. It creates 1st class (born in Mexico) and 2nd class (naturalized) citizens. I know US government does not impose such requirement on their naturalized citizens. Even though I realize no one will probably track my whereabouts, I think it is going to be a good idea to make sure my passport gets scanned upon returning to Mexico from abroad (if it had been scanned when leaving Mexico). Just so I don't have to worry that one day my Mexican citizenship gets revoked...
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