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Dave

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

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Mexican citizenship requirements

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I have read/heard conflicting reports about renouncing with regard to obtaining Mexican citizenship (not of Mexican lineage). Does one have to renounce U.S. citizenship in the presence of a U.S consular official? If not,does Mexico share this information (renouncing)with the U.S.? Also,please reference your replies with official (Mexican or U.S.)site documentation.



DavidMTY

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

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Mexican citizenship requirements

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You do renounce US citizenship, but NOT to a US consular official. You renounce before the Mexican Secretariat of Foreign Relations. The US State department works on a don't ask, don't tell basis at present, after being hard nosed about it and getting taken to court and losing to people who they stripped of nationality based on Mexican renouncements coming to their attention. If you aske a consular official their opinion, they will invariably discourage you from adopting a second nationality for a few pertinent reasons, but they will acknowledge that at present you can do it without their objection and maintain your US citizenship despite the unAmerican and unpleseant statements to the Mexican Secretariat.<p>Regarding the sharing of information, you should assume the US will get the info, but as Jim in Cancun implied, it is not likely it will be because Mexico shared it. The State Department really has its hands tied these days. Just look at the case of the American (Arab lineage) Taliban born in Lousiana. If they haven't stripped him of his nationality, it would be an insult if they could get you. The only qualifier here is that in your nice long lifetime, the interpretation of the words "intent" and preponderance of evidence" with regard to your renouncing could be reinterpreted in the future and cause you some degree of headache under the wrong conditions. There is no law on the books to guarantee your double nationality at 100%. And do keep in mind, in Mexico, on assuming the Mexican nationality, in Mexican territory you do abandon your ability to run to the US consulate if you get in a predicament, you must use your Mexican passport to visit all countries other than the US, you must deal with two tax authorities as if you were not dual nationaled, and wills become somewhat more challenging.<p>The thread 11 down has links to the State Department in one of my posts which should give you more confidence in our answers, in addition to other sundry stuff.<p>Best...David(MTY)<p>: I have read/heard conflicting reports about renouncing with regard to obtaining Mexican citizenship (not of Mexican lineage). Does one have to renounce U.S. citizenship in the presence of a U.S consular official? If not,does Mexico share this information (renouncing)with the U.S.? Also,please reference your replies with official (Mexican or U.S.)site documentation. <p>


Dave

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

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Mexican citizenship requirements

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:David, thanks. Could you provide an official site or documentation that confirms this? If renunciation is not preformed in the presence of a U.S. official i'm not worried about it. I have read the Supreme Court decisions. <p>:I'm sure you're aware that the following poster is incorrect. Mexico only recognizes dual citizenship of IT'S nationals or certain decendants of same. Not very sporting of them. <p>: You do renounce US citizenship, but NOT to a US consular official. You renounce before the Mexican Secretariat of Foreign Relations. The US State department works on a don't ask, don't tell basis at present, after being hard nosed about it and getting taken to court and losing to people who they stripped of nationality based on Mexican renouncements coming to their attention. If you aske a consular official their opinion, they will invariably discourage you from adopting a second nationality for a few pertinent reasons, but they will acknowledge that at present you can do it without their objection and maintain your US citizenship despite the unAmerican and unpleseant statements to the Mexican Secretariat.<p>: Regarding the sharing of information, you should assume the US will get the info, but as Jim in Cancun implied, it is not likely it will be because Mexico shared it. The State Department really has its hands tied these days. Just look at the case of the American (Arab lineage) Taliban born in Lousiana. If they haven't stripped him of his nationality, it would be an insult if they could get you. The only qualifier here is that in your nice long lifetime, the interpretation of the words "intent" and preponderance of evidence" with regard to your renouncing could be reinterpreted in the future and cause you some degree of headache under the wrong conditions. There is no law on the books to guarantee your double nationality at 100%. And do keep in mind, in Mexico, on assuming the Mexican nationality, in Mexican territory you do abandon your ability to run to the US consulate if you get in a predicament, you must use your Mexican passport to visit all countries other than the US, you must deal with two tax authorities as if you were not dual nationaled, and wills become somewhat more challenging.<p>: The thread 11 down has links to the State Department in one of my posts which should give you more confidence in our answers, in addition to other sundry stuff.<p>: Best...David(MTY)<p>: : I have read/heard conflicting reports about renouncing with regard to obtaining Mexican citizenship (not of Mexican lineage). Does one have to renounce U.S. citizenship in the presence of a U.S consular official? If not,does Mexico share this information (renouncing)with the U.S.? Also,please reference your replies with official (Mexican or U.S.)site documentation. <p>


DavidMTY

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #4 of 44 (29429 views)

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Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Dave, some comments on yours: If you are comfortable with the court decisions, it sounds like you are on the path to becoming Mexican...welcome! Regarding the following poster, they seem blissfully incorrect though in their case the oversimplified interpretation seems harmsless enough, so I hope we are all happy now.<p>Funny the way laws interpretations' change. For example it was the "right" of millions of Mexicans to have Visas with no expiration date, but the Department of Justice changed its mind supposedly due to terrorists and is in the process of revolking them all.<p>Finally, your comment on how sporting of Mexico to only recognize Mexicans by birth involved as dual citizens is a bull's eye on why these things are never open and shut cases, and the double standard, which, by the way, in this case, is not mirrored for the US naturalized nationals. If Mexico decided to enforce policy, I don't think Bush would make it a national priority to lobby for all the poor dual national Americans by birth, nor would there be much of a peep, in contrast to what Fox has done in the current immigration accords.<p>Best...David(MTY)<p>
: :David, thanks. Could you provide an official site or documentation that confirms this? If renunciation is not preformed in the presence of a U.S. official i'm not worried about it. I have read the Supreme Court decisions. <p>: :I'm sure you're aware that the following poster is incorrect. Mexico only recognizes dual citizenship of IT'S nationals or certain decendants of same. Not very sporting of them. <p>: : You do renounce US citizenship, but NOT to a US consular official. You renounce before the Mexican Secretariat of Foreign Relations. The US State department works on a don't ask, don't tell basis at present, after being hard nosed about it and getting taken to court and losing to people who they stripped of nationality based on Mexican renouncements coming to their attention. If you aske a consular official their opinion, they will invariably discourage you from adopting a second nationality for a few pertinent reasons, but they will acknowledge that at present you can do it without their objection and maintain your US citizenship despite the unAmerican and unpleseant statements to the Mexican Secretariat.<p>: : Regarding the sharing of information, you should assume the US will get the info, but as Jim in Cancun implied, it is not likely it will be because Mexico shared it. The State Department really has its hands tied these days. Just look at the case of the American (Arab lineage) Taliban born in Lousiana. If they haven't stripped him of his nationality, it would be an insult if they could get you. The only qualifier here is that in your nice long lifetime, the interpretation of the words "intent" and preponderance of evidence" with regard to your renouncing could be reinterpreted in the future and cause you some degree of headache under the wrong conditions. There is no law on the books to guarantee your double nationality at 100%. And do keep in mind, in Mexico, on assuming the Mexican nationality, in Mexican territory you do abandon your ability to run to the US consulate if you get in a predicament, you must use your Mexican passport to visit all countries other than the US, you must deal with two tax authorities as if you were not dual nationaled, and wills become somewhat more challenging.<p>: : The thread 11 down has links to the State Department in one of my posts which should give you more confidence in our answers, in addition to other sundry stuff.<p>: : Best...David(MTY)<p>: : : I have read/heard conflicting reports about renouncing with regard to obtaining Mexican citizenship (not of Mexican lineage). Does one have to renounce U.S. citizenship in the presence of a U.S consular official? If not,does Mexico share this information (renouncing)with the U.S.? Also,please reference your replies with official (Mexican or U.S.)site documentation. <p>


DavidMTY

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #5 of 44 (29428 views)

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Mexican citizenship requirements

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Hi Dave,<p>The Secretariat of Foreign Relations (SRE) in Mexico will process the naturalization asking you to sign a photocopy statement upon giving your your Letter of Naturalization. I don't know of any web sites going into the details, much less official ones, so I will simply refer you to the Law of Nationality and Naturalization in vigor, Articles 17 & 19. Read 19 first, and then reference 17 as it requires. The SRE simply is following the procedure for naturalization by the authority vested in it, covered in these two articles where your point of interest is.<p>
ARTICULO 19.- The foreigner who attempts to naturalize as Mexican must: <p>I. Present an application to the SRE in which he manifests his will to acquire the Mexican nationality; <p>II. Present to the SRE the renouncements and oath as referered to in article 17 of this act; <p>The SRE is not able to require that the renouncements and oath until after it has taken the decision to grant nationality to the applicant. The letter of naturalization will be granted once these (renouncements and oath) have been verified. <p>ARTICULO 17.- Mexicans by birth which another country can consider as their nationals, are able to solicit from the SRE a Certificate of Mexican Nationality, only for effects of article 16. <p>The procedure is to prepare a specific renouncement of the nationality which is attributed to them, completely (renouncing) submission, obedience and fidelity, to any foreign country, especially the one which is attributed to their other nationality, to all protection not included in Mexican law and authority, and to all rights that treaties and agreements concede to foreigners. As well, they will take an oath of adhesion, obedience and submission to Mexican laws and authority and they will abstain from realizing any conduct that implies submission to a foreign country<p>Hope you find this helpful! David(MTY)<p><p><p>
: :David, thanks. Could you provide an official site or documentation that confirms this? If renunciation is not preformed in the presence of a U.S. official i'm not worried about it. I have read the Supreme Court decisions. <p>: :I'm sure you're aware that the following poster is incorrect. Mexico only recognizes dual citizenship of IT'S nationals or certain decendants of same. Not very sporting of them. <p>: : You do renounce US citizenship, but NOT to a US consular official. You renounce before the Mexican Secretariat of Foreign Relations. The US State department works on a don't ask, don't tell basis at present, after being hard nosed about it and getting taken to court and losing to people who they stripped of nationality based on Mexican renouncements coming to their attention. If you aske a consular official their opinion, they will invariably discourage you from adopting a second nationality for a few pertinent reasons, but they will acknowledge that at present you can do it without their objection and maintain your US citizenship despite the unAmerican and unpleseant statements to the Mexican Secretariat.<p>: : Regarding the sharing of information, you should assume the US will get the info, but as Jim in Cancun implied, it is not likely it will be because Mexico shared it. The State Department really has its hands tied these days. Just look at the case of the American (Arab lineage) Taliban born in Lousiana. If they haven't stripped him of his nationality, it would be an insult if they could get you. The only qualifier here is that in your nice long lifetime, the interpretation of the words "intent" and preponderance of evidence" with regard to your renouncing could be reinterpreted in the future and cause you some degree of headache under the wrong conditions. There is no law on the books to guarantee your double nationality at 100%. And do keep in mind, in Mexico, on assuming the Mexican nationality, in Mexican territory you do abandon your ability to run to the US consulate if you get in a predicament, you must use your Mexican passport to visit all countries other than the US, you must deal with two tax a


tew

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #6 of 44 (29425 views)

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Mexican citizenship requirements

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Brevity and clarity seems not to be your forte. The bottom line is that the US permits dual citizenship, and since recently so does Mexico. Hence the delightful posting of the little boy born in Mexico of US parents, who enjoys dual citizenship. I hope you donít find tolerance and open mindedness un-American as well. TEW.


DavidMTY

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #7 of 44 (29423 views)

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Mexican citizenship requirements

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::Brevity and clarity seems not to be your forte.<p>I usually prefer pianissimo.<p>::The bottom line is that the US permits dual citizenship, and since recently so does Mexico.<p>Thanks for the info.<p>::Hence the delightful posting of the little boy born in Mexico of US parents, who enjoys dual citizenship.<p>My responses are for Mexicans by naturalization; the lucky superboy is Mexican by birth. <p>::I hope you donít find tolerance and open mindedness un-American as well. TEW.<p>How fatuous.<p>


DavidMTY

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #8 of 44 (29424 views)

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Mexican citizenship requirements

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::Brevity and clarity seems not to be your forte.<p>I usually prefer pianissimo.<p>::The bottom line is that the US permits dual citizenship, and since recently so does Mexico.<p>Thanks for the info.<p>::Hence the delightful posting of the little boy born in Mexico of US parents, who enjoys dual citizenship.<p>My responses are for Mexicans by naturalization; the lucky superboy is Mexican by birth. <p>::I hope you donít find tolerance and open mindedness un-American as well. TEW.<p>How fatuous.<p>


tew

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #9 of 44 (29424 views)

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Mexican citizenship requirements

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It seems we agree: both the US and Mexico permit dual citizenship. Children born in Mexico to a US citizen or citizens have the right to dual citizenship. And that was the only point I was trying to make. Thanks for a brief reply. And thanks for not questioning my ďlineageĒ. TEW.


Jim en Cancun

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #10 of 44 (29426 views)

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no and no and you can't prove a negative but ...

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<center><img src="http://www.mexconnect.com/jim.gifh"></center><p>


LJ

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #11 of 44 (29422 views)

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no and no and you can't prove a negative but ...

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<center><img src="http://www.go2mex.com/21_t.jpg"></center><p>


Jim in Cancun

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

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I will keep an eye out for...

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<center><img src="http://www.mexconnect.com/jim.gif"></center><p>


Jim en Cancun

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #13 of 44 (29422 views)

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And there is more information if...

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Tots

Dec 1, 2015, 12:37 PM

Post #14 of 44 (21794 views)

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Re: [DavidMTY] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Hi there-

I'm trying to interpret the following Article from the Mexican Law:

On the loss of Mexican nationality acquired through naturalization

Mexican nationality acquired by naturalization is lost in the following cases:
I. For voluntary acquisition of a foreign nationality, for posing as a foreigner in any
public document, for using a foreign passport, or for accepting or using titles of nobility
that imply submission to a foreign State, and;
II. For residing in foreign territory for five consecutive years.
(Article 37 (B) of the Mexican Constitution.)

QUESTION: What does "For voluntary acquisition of a foreign nationality" mean? I've acquired my Mexican Naturalization Certificate and didn't renounce my Birth Country's Citizenship because it was not mentioned to me by the SRE official when they handed me the Naturalization Certificate.

Voluntary Acquisition (for me, that is) is if I acquired a foreign nationality upon my own free will or choice. If I was born with my Nationality, it wasn't my choice or free will, right? Therefore, wouldn't I be able to maintain both Nationalities I was and not a Mexican by birth?


TedZar

Dec 1, 2015, 5:43 PM

Post #15 of 44 (21761 views)

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Re: [Tots] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Personally, I'd be more concerned about: for using a foreign passport

There are likely many times when it would be much more convenient to use a USA passport (if that is what you have) when going to countries with a visa waiver. Or there might just be times, for personal reasons, when that is the passport you would want to use.


YucaLandia


Dec 1, 2015, 6:06 PM

Post #16 of 44 (21759 views)

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Re: [Tots] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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When you were signing all the documents for SRE, are you sure that you did not sign a form that stated you were renouncing your previous citizenship?

In this past July, I had to sign & date about 6 to 8 different forms ~ in triplicate ~ for a mind-numbing total of 21 or more signatures. The renunciation of prior citizenship form was buried in the pile - at about the #4(?) position out of 7.

??
steve

.
**Unless you were born to Mexican parents, or an American born on Mexican soil (etc), Mexico officially does not allow US citizens to become Mexican citizens without renouncing their US citizenship.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Dec 1, 2015, 6:08 PM)


cbviajero

Dec 1, 2015, 7:29 PM

Post #17 of 44 (21733 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Has anyone ever heard of a case of a US citizen losing their citizenship and having their passport invalidated after acquiring Mexican citizenship??


YucaLandia


Dec 1, 2015, 9:09 PM

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Re: [cbviajero] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Yes, there are Americans every year who renounce their citizenship.

Under the 1986 rule, the US citizen files a written renunciation with a US Consulate. The IRS then digs into the person's records, and decides how much the American owes in taxes before the renunciation is accepted/finalized. Once the IRS get's their chunk of $$, and signs off: the US citizen is finally released from their citizenship.

There's no need to require a first-person reply on this, as a record number of almost 1,500 Americans had turned in their passports and stopped being US citizens in just the 3'rd quarter of 2015.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/10/26/reverse-immigration-americans-renounce-citizenship-in-record-numbers/

There have also been enough Americans renouncing their citizenship that a cottage-industry has sprung up to meet their needs:
http://www.renunciationguide.com/expatriation-and-tax-details-of-current-law/exit-tax-on-renunciants/

Under the Congressional rules since 1986, which were finally accepted by the US State Dept in 1992(?), the US govt. only seizes passports of Americans who become naturalized Mexican citizens if the citizen files a written renunciation with a US Consulate.

That all potentially changes in January 2016, when a new law takes effect that allows the IRS to have the State Department revoke the passports of any American citizens who owe more than $50K in taxes/fees/penalties/interest.

Happy Trails,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


Tots

Dec 2, 2015, 3:50 AM

Post #19 of 44 (21706 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Steve. Would it not seem odd that at the time you are signing the paperwork to obtain your Naturalization Certificate that the SRE official wouldn't have asked to see some type of evidence that you renounced your Citizenship prior to handing the Certificate to you if there's a requirement to have had renounced? When I was filling out the Forms and providing all the documentation to obtain my Naturalization Certificate never did it say anything (i.e. SRE website) that one of the steps was to renounce your current Citizenship.


YucaLandia


Dec 2, 2015, 6:21 AM

Post #20 of 44 (21685 views)

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Re: [Tots] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Agreed, on all counts.

Your points make good sense, but none of them fit how SRE currently does things.

There was a time in the past (about 12 yrs ago) that SRE required that Americans hand-over their US passports when receiving Naturalized Citizenship from Mexico. SRE would then send the US passport to the local US Consulate - and the American would be notified to come to their US Consulate to retrieve their US passports - continuing on as US citizens, without creating a ripple.

In the continuing soap opera: Many Americans refused to hand-over their US passports to SRE. Some clever Americans passed the word on the internet, pointing out that our US passports are not our personal property, that they belong to the US government. Since the US passports are officially US Govt. property, the Mex. Gob. stopped requiring Americans to hand-over their US passports.

Re the information on the SRE website: Mex. Gob. websites contain only part of all the requirements and only part of all the rules. In this case, the Mexican Constitution's requirements are still met, in that we supposed to only have Mexican Citizenship, unless we qualify as having Mexican family members, or are the child born in America of Mexican parents.

For all the rest of American citizens who become Naturalized Citizens of Mexico, it's a "Don't ask, don't tell" ... " ~ Wink, wink ... Nod, nod ~ " game for the last 25 years ... unless you get into legal trouble in either country.**

The US govt. doesn't want to know about it.
The Mexican govt. can/will revoke your nat. Mexican citizenship if they find out about you still having US citizenship (as described in the Article 37 of the Mexican Constitution).

Hope that helps,
steve
.
.
**By becoming a Naturalized Citizen of Mexico, you give up ALL rights as a US Citizen while in Mexico ... you are bound by all Mexican law ... and the US govt. will give you ZERO aid or support if you get into legal trouble while in Mexico.

The converse applies while in the USA: By becoming a Naturalized Citizen of Mexico, you give up ALL rights as a Mexican Citizen while in the USA ... you are bound by all US law, with none of the protections of being a Mexican Citizen ... and the Mexican govt. will give you ZERO aid or support if you get into legal trouble while in the USA.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


Tots

Dec 2, 2015, 6:25 AM

Post #21 of 44 (21682 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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Thanks Steve. Very informative and helpful.


YucaLandia


Dec 2, 2015, 6:45 AM

Post #22 of 44 (21679 views)

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Re: [Tots] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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I forgot to mention two other twists from the " ~ Wink, wink ... Nod, nod ~ " US & Mexican govt. systems:

When you enter the USA, the US govt. requires that US citizens use only their US passports (regardless of what other passports they hold).

When you enter Mexico, the Mex. Gob. requires that Mexican citizens use only their Mexican passports (regardless of what other passports they hold).

This means that neither passport has a complete record of our entries and exits between the USA & Mexico ... which may turn up in future modern anti-terrorist security checks ... ?


The same principle goes on when checking in at US airports and buying airline tickets to the USA: We must use our US passports for us to pass TSA information checks. US airlines have also required that I use only my US passport when booking tickets.

Baila, baila, baila, balia,
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


YucaLandia


Dec 2, 2015, 6:48 AM

Post #23 of 44 (21678 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LweA7NLPB0c

" como una gitana ...."

Whether we show our US passport or nuestrao pasaporte Mexicano

aren't we all just a leetle beet gypsy ... deep down inside ... ?
.
.
(a video with possibly the best biker-chick ever)
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Dec 2, 2015, 6:57 AM)


esperanza

Dec 3, 2015, 7:00 AM

Post #24 of 44 (21585 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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This thread is promulgating a bunch of erroneous information. Steve, you're usually right on top of things, but this time you are most definitely not.

When a person becomes a naturalized Mexican citizen, SRE generally (I won't say always, because apparently someone at SRE slipped up in your case) requires that person to sign a paper stating that he or she renounces CLAIMING American citizenship while IN MEXICO. The paper further states that the person is no longer entitled to US consular/embassy services WHILE IN MEXICO. That's it. The paper is not a renunciation of USA citizenship. The rational for requiring a person to sign this paper is that the person is now a Mexican citizen; it is against the law to claim to be a USA CITIZEN while that naturalized Mexican citizen is IN MEXICO.

The procedure for renouncing USA citizenship is spelled out here: http://travel.state.gov/...-of-citizenship.html

Again, the paper that the SRE requires you to sign is ONLY about giving up your rights to US consular/embassy services WHILE IN MEXICO. Renouncing your USA citizenship means losing all rights, privileges, and duties as an American--including the right to continue to receive Social Security retirement or disability benefits. The SRE paper is ONLY for the SRE, and only for the purpose I mentioned above.

Furthermore, when you exit Mexico, you exit showing your Mexican passport. If you are flying from Mexico to the USA, you will show your Mexican passport to the airline counter agent. That agent will ask for your visa to enter the USA; you simply show the agent your USA passport. When you enter (and later leave) the USA, you will present your USA passport as your official identification. Upon arrival in Mexico, you enter through the 'Ciudadano' lines and show your Mexican passport as identification.

If you travel to any other country, upon entry in that country you can choose the citizenship you claim--either Mexican or USA.

It's very simple and not at all onerous.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Gringal

Dec 3, 2015, 7:36 AM

Post #25 of 44 (21569 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Mexican citizenship requirements (2)

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" Renouncing your USA citizenship means losing all rights, privileges, and duties as an American--including the right to continue to receive Social Security retirement or disability benefits."

That's one that I'm very unclear about. I thought that a worker in the U.S. who acquired the necessary quarters of coverage, whether as citizen of the U.S. or not, was entitled to receive SS benefits whether in or out of the country.
At least, that's the way it was when I worked for the SSA.
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