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carib

May 27, 2003, 6:41 PM

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Need permit(s) and procedure info for my lot

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Hello, I've read just about every article available on this site, the government sites and been to most of the gov. offices in the state of Quintana Roo, in the capital city of Chetumal. I'm most interested in permits, visas and import taxes. Some of the info. just doesn't jive; I do realize this can be the difference between the written law and how it is enforced. For example, I doubt that travelers from the Tampa, Fl ferry exiting into Cancun (200 vehicles) would be taxed for "importing" all the expensive goodies that there motorhomes contain or be held up in customs for days, or actually need to use an import broker since it's a temporary visit.

Does anyone know if you're allowed to tow 2 trailers in tandem with a pickup?

I already have a corporation set up and was told that no import fees would apply to items brought in for the business. Is this true? What about Cokes and Mountain Dew?

My lot is near the new cruise ship port and here's what I want to do:

Load my pickup and a camping and/or covered work trailer with commercial coolers, an ice machine, sink, blender, coffee machine, generator, a portable building etc. and all the used tools necessary to clear an area of my beach lot in order to build a snack bar and later build some cabanas. I'll use the tools and work trailer for 1-2 mos., then haul it back to Fl. Q: Any taxes since the tools are "just visiting" and being used for a business?

I plan on being in the area for 180 days or less, so I should be able to get by on the tourist visa. People are saying to get an FM3 and a work permit. I don't see how either pertain to me since I fit within the visiting guidlines and I'm the biz owner, working for myself and not being paid by the corp. as an employee. If my father and friends come with me to help and they're not getting paid, I wouldn't see that the corp. would need to obtain work permits for them either, since no job is being taken from a resident. (Unless they want to work for free!)

Q: Clearing the land. My lot is commercial and on a private access road. According to the law, commercial lots have more buildable area and thus, could be cleared more. The law states that chemicals, hydraulic plants, etc. will require an environmental impact report ($2,500). It also states that if you believe any change will occur to the environment as a result of your actions, then you should have the report done also. Technically, any person walking on the soil will cause a change to be noted to the plants and animals, but it's a far cry from trimming the trees to a chemical factory!

Q: Can't any unprotected trees/plants be trimmed at my discretion? Also, does anyone know the latest RE: burning brush? Has it been made illegal or can it be done on the far side of the road still? Two lots down, some local workers just burned down the entire front of the lot, burning the rocks, coral and neighboring bushes.

I've been told by the locals that a permit will be necessary to move my private access road on the other side of a row of trees (about 10'). This seems ridiculous. No trees need to be cut down, just trimmed. Has anyone had any experience with this? The official in Chetumal told me they needed the exact coordinants of my lot and photos, to determine which ecological zone my lot was in. Then they would determine if a permit and an eco study was necessary. The local Mayans and the cruise ship workers seem to be able to tear down whatever they want, whenever they want.

I know I need to obtain a concession permit to use the fed. zone beach in front of my lot. Am I allowed to put a temp. canopy on it with no permit? Q: Do I need a building permit for a cement block bar on my lot and the portable storage building. I think it applies to houses and restaurants only?

TIA

Jim in Cancun / Moderator

May 28, 2003, 5:12 AM

Post #2 of 8 (1634 views)

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Re: [carib] Need permit(s) and procedure info for my lot

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CARIB says: Hello, I've read just about every article available on this site, the government sites and been to most of the gov. offices in the state of Quintana Roo, in the capital city of Chetumal. I'm most interested in permits, visas and import taxes.

Jim says: Do you speak Spanish? Have you been there with your lawyer and/or accountant who know what questions to ask and how to ask them? And in case you missed some sites, also check out

http://rollybrook.com/...ve_to_mexico.htm#Car and http://mexconnected.com/...movingcountdown.html and http://www.mexconnected.com/mex_/driveborder.html

CARIB says: Some of the info. just doesn't jive;

Jim says: Welcome to Mexico!

CARIB says: I do realize this can be the difference between the written law and how it is enforced. For example, I doubt that travelers from the Tampa, Fl ferry exiting into Cancun (200 vehicles) would be taxed for "importing" all the expensive goodies that there motorhomes contain or be held up in customs for days, or actually need to use an import broker since it's a temporary visit.

Jim says: They aren´t importing--they are bringing things in tempoarily. And if the things included are not permitted then they will be taxed or the merchandise confiscated--or at the very least they will be harrassed to the point of thinking that maybe a "tip" is in order here! Check out http://www.mexconnected.com/mex_/whatstuff.html

CARIB says: Does anyone know if you're allowed to tow 2 trailers in tandem with a pickup?

Jim says: I don´t know for sure but it probably depends on a number of "ifs"--like your status, purpose of the merchandise and trailers,etc. Maybe someone else can address this one.

CARIB says:I already have a corporation set up and was told that no import fees would apply to items brought in for the business. Is this true?

Jim says: What kind of corporation? Who told you that? Your customs agent? Notario? Lawyer? It also depends on the type of business, the type of merchandise and NAFTA.

CARIB says:What about Cokes and Mountain Dew?

Jim says: If they think they are for sale then they will probably tax or take them for break time--depends on the quantity and your luck.

CARIB says:My lot is near the new cruise ship port and here's what I want to do:

Jim says: Which new cruise ship port? Majahual? Playa? Cozumel?

CARIB says:Load my pickup and a camping and/or covered work trailer with commercial coolers, an ice machine, sink, blender, coffee machine, generator, a portable building etc. and all the used tools necessary to clear an area of my beach lot in order to build a snack bar and later build some cabanas. I'll use the tools and work trailer for 1-2 mos., then haul it back to Fl. Q: Any taxes since the tools are "just visiting" and being used for a business?

Jim says: WOW! Multiple part question.

1.- Check with your customs agent, accountant, notario and lawyer BUT my guess is that you will not be permitted to just cross the border with all of that commercial stuff. And make sure you have all original invoices, serial numbers,etc. because you will have to have a detailied inventory made of what you are bringing in with its corresponding value. Here is a sample of a menaje de casa in English--it must, of course be done in Spanish.

http://rollybrook.com/menaje.htm

If you do not speak fluent Spanish and know how things are done in Mexico then you need an accountant, a notario, a lawyer and a customs agent--don´t depend on free advice on the net--it will cost you big time.

2.- The words "clear" and "build" bring to mind shades of many laws, rules, regulations, environmental impact studies, local, State and Federal burocracy. Check with professionals--you have a long row to hoe.

3.- As far as the "visiting" tools, you are importing them for business purposes.

CARIB says:I plan on being in the area for 180 days or less, so I should be able to get by on the tourist visa. People are saying to get an FM3 and a work permit. I don't see how either pertain to me since I fit within the visiting guidlines and I'm the biz owner, working for myself and not being paid by the corp. as an employee. If my father and friends come with me to help and they're not getting paid, I wouldn't see that the corp. would need to obtain work permits for them either, since no job is being taken from a resident. (Unless they want to work for free!)

Jim says: What you just said shows that you have a lot more research to do and a lot to learn about life and business in Mexico. You said you already had a corporation set up. I assumed this was a Mexican corporation. Am I correct in that assumption? If you have a Mexican company set up you can get an FM-3 but what work you can do is limited.

Read http://www.peoplesguide.com/...arting-business.html

And if you have a Mexican business, you are not "visiting"--you are doing business here and need to pay taxes and follow the laws of the land. In general--while this may be normal--it seems that you are trying to "skirt" the laws and spend the least amount of money to set up a business on the beach in a foreign. If it were that easy I would have done it 16 years ago when I first got here. It isn´t. It is a slow, frustrating, expensive process and you need deep pockets and lots of patience to make it work.

CARIB says:Q: Clearing the land. My lot is commercial and on a private access road. According to the law, commercial lots have more buildable area and thus, could be cleared more. The law states that chemicals, hydraulic plants, etc. will require an environmental impact report ($2,500). It also states that if you believe any change will occur to the environment as a result of your actions, then you should have the report done also. Technically, any person walking on the soil will cause a change to be noted to the plants and animals, but it's a far cry from trimming the trees to a chemical factory!

Jim says:

1.- Not to put you and your project in the same class as huge Spanish hotel chains, but Sol Meliá and Ríu--just to mention a few--have had some serious problems building on the beaches of Quintana Roo. Envionmental impact studies, local state and federal permits have stopped several big projects entirely and psotponed others indefinitely--and this for companies that have "paid" millions of dollars for their "permits."

2.- And as for the land, did you purchase it as a Mexican corporation? Is it in a trust? Is it titled?

CARIB says:Q: Can't any unprotected trees/plants be trimmed at my discretion? Also, does anyone know the latest RE: burning brush? Has it been made illegal or can it be done on the far side of the road still? Two lots down, some local workers just burned down the entire front of the lot, burning the rocks, coral and neighboring bushes.

Jim says: "Trimmed" yes--cut down, no. Burning is both common and illegal here and you will find that foreigners get away with much less than local Mexicans. There have been some serious brush/forest fires this year both in Q.Roo and Yucatan so everyone is watching.

CARIB says:I've been told by the locals that a permit will be necessary to move my private access road on the other side of a row of trees (about 10'). This seems ridiculous. No trees need to be cut down, just trimmed. Has anyone had any experience with this? The official in Chetumal told me they needed the exact coordinants of my lot and photos, to determine which ecological zone my lot was in. Then they would determine if a permit and an eco study was necessary. The local Mayans and the cruise ship workers seem to be able to tear down whatever they want, whenever they want.

Jim says: See above ("foreigners get away with much less than local Mexicans") and you will have to give them all of the coordinates, papers, copies of papers, copies of your company papers, copies of your immigration papers, copies of your RFC, copies of your proof of residency, etc. before they will do anything. And you will run into thousands of things that will "seem ridiculous" to you and you will have to do them or make no progress at all.

CARIB says:I know I need to obtain a concession permit to use the fed. zone beach in front of my lot. Am I allowed to put a temp. canopy on it with no permit? Q: Do I need a building permit for a cement block bar on my lot and the portable storage building. I think it applies to houses and restaurants only?

Jim says: Yes, you need a Federal concession to use the beach since it is considered federal property. Building permits refer to "building"--anything. You need the concession before you can do anything on the beach and the permit before you can do anything on the land.

Jim says: I have lived here for 16 years and have seen people come and go thinking that coming here from "Peoria" is like moving around the corner--or to another state. Well, it isn´t. It´s another country, climate, money, food, laws, customs, friends, language,etc. ad infinitum. Imagine how a local illiterate Mayan farmer or an educated Mexican lawyer who doesn´t speak English might feel upon arriving in New York or Chicago or--worse yet--the middle of Iowa--and finding out that the American dream that he way chasing isn´t exactly as easy to grab as he thought!!

I am not trying to be negative--just realistic. Remember: "A dream only costs one thing: EVERYTHING!"

HOPE THIS HELPS.

alex .

May 28, 2003, 12:18 PM

Post #3 of 8 (1622 views)

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Re: [Jim in Cancun] selling cokes on the beach

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Wow, I'll bet nobody has ever thought of THAT before.
Carib, the system will eat your lunch, and probably wash it down with your cokes.
Wow.
Alex

carib

May 28, 2003, 3:01 PM

Post #4 of 8 (1612 views)

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Clarification of some points

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Jim,

Thanks for the reply.

To clarify a few points:

-My lot is in Majahual, which was purchased thru a MX corp. I set up as an S de RL. In town, there are a lot of locals, as well as Germans, Italians, Americans, etc. that have set up biz on the beach. I've spoken with them, as well as my atty on the issue of bringing in items for a biz and not having to pay taxes on the items.

-I speak some Spanish and will continue to work on it. I worked with Mexican clients in CA and AZ for years and had a very good, non-offensive rapport with them. I'm young, persistent and want my own biz. RE: The other comment that stated "no one ever thought of that"- there are obviously American-owned biz' all up and down both coasts of MX. Apparently, you know of a lot of failures. My Q is: it's attainable, what's the difference between the ones that succeeded and the ones that failed? As stated, millions of $ are not always the answer. Could it be that someone offended the official's machismo?

-I've driven through some of the west coast of MX and am well aware of border bribes, etc. However, I've found the Caribbean locals to be much friendlier, accomodating and cooperative than the west coast (Aztec vs. Spaniard vs.Mayan). I bused from Cancun half way through Belize twice, as well as Guatemala and drove from Chetumal to Tulum, etc.

-I'm not trying to skirt around any tax issues. I know I need a MX acct to pay monthly taxes, etc. I was trying to say that as a biz owner, I'd obviously have to be working at the biz and would not neccessarily have to be paid as a corp. employee if I draw off of the corp. account or leave all the funds intact in order to expand the biz. If I'm not paying my father or friends to work, then they aren't taking a "job" away from a local person; they're helping with a family project. None of the articles seem to pertain to my situation since everyone is bringing in household items in order to retire and not to start a biz.

-Right now, I'm beginning to file for necessary permits, (which seems like a truck load), so I can get started when I arrive in Oct. I need a building permit to build anything? I'm giving myself 6 mos. to make or break it (mentally). After that time, if I wanted to return, I was going to apply for an FM3. It sounds as if you're saying to bring more items or make it easier, I'll need an FM3 before arriving?

-I am trying to do this as cheaply as possible and legal. I'm trying to find out if it's more cost effective to import certain hard to obtain items vs. aquiring almost everything in MX. Any ideas or comments would be appreciated.

Any opinions on bringing in a camping trailer to live on lot v$. renting a hotel room in town?

Thank you

Jim in Cancun / Moderator

May 29, 2003, 5:52 AM

Post #5 of 8 (1595 views)

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Re: [carib] Clarification of some points

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Jim,
Hi, Carib.
Thanks for the reply.
You´re welcome.
To clarify a few points:

-My lot is in Majahual, which was purchased thru a MX corp. I set up as an S de RL. In town, there are a lot of locals, as well as Germans, Italians, Americans, etc. that have set up biz on the beach. I've spoken with them, as well as my atty on the issue of bringing in items for a biz and not having to pay taxes on the items.

Sounds like you should be able to get an FM-3 through your company--it makes everything easier. I am not sure about bringing things in for a business--everything I buy for my business in the States I pay duty on when it arrives. The list you mentioned sounds like a lot to bring in without a problem.
-I speak some Spanish and will continue to work on it. I worked with Mexican clients in CA and AZ for years and had a very good, non-offensive rapport with them. I'm young, persistent and want my own biz.

All sounds like you have some good experience.

RE: The other comment that stated "no one ever thought of that"- there are obviously American-owned biz' all up and down both coasts of MX. Apparently, you know of a lot of failures. My Q is: it's attainable, what's the difference between the ones that succeeded and the ones that failed? As stated, millions of $ are not always the answer. Could it be that someone offended the official's machismo?

Why businesses (and people) don´t succeed in Mexico? IMHO:

1. Lack of business experience and know how in general. Including market studies, forecasts and competition analyses.

2.- Lack of patience, tolerance and acceptance of differences. Including differences in accounting methods, permitting, construction, law, language, customs, etc.

3.- Lack of money.

4.- Lack of "fitting in" to the community around in/them.

I am sure there are more and that is very general but those are my ideas for now.
-I've driven through some of the west coast of MX and am well aware of border bribes, etc. However, I've found the Caribbean locals to be much friendlier, accomodating and cooperative than the west coast (Aztec vs. Spaniard vs.Mayan). I bused from Cancun half way through Belize twice, as well as Guatemala and drove from Chetumal to Tulum, etc.
Good experience.
-I'm not trying to skirt around any tax issues. I know I need a MX acct to pay monthly taxes, etc. I was trying to say that as a biz owner, I'd obviously have to be working at the biz and would not neccessarily have to be paid as a corp. employee if I draw off of the corp. account or leave all the funds intact in order to expand the biz.

You need a good "fiscalista"--tax accountant to advise on the best ways to do that. BTW everything you do in Mexico has to be reported to the IRS.

If I'm not paying my father or friends to work, then they aren't taking a "job" away from a local person; they're helping with a family project. None of the articles seem to pertain to my situation since everyone is bringing in household items in order to retire and not to start a biz.

If they are doing the work then you are taking a job away from someone down here. If they come down here on FM-3 rentista then they will be able to bring in their own menaje de casa of course.

-Right now, I'm beginning to file for necessary permits, (which seems like a truck load), so I can get started when I arrive in Oct. I need a building permit to build anything? I'm giving myself 6 mos. to make or break it (mentally). After that time, if I wanted to return, I was going to apply for an FM3. It sounds as if you're saying to bring more items or make it easier, I'll need an FM3 before arriving?
Much easier IMHO
-I am trying to do this as cheaply as possible and legal. I'm trying to find out if it's more cost effective to import certain hard to obtain items vs. aquiring almost everything in MX. Any ideas or comments would be appreciated.
Buy everything you possibly can in Mexico--I can´t think of anything that you might NEED that you can´t find here nowadays. It is soooo much easier and cheaper than bringing--even household goods. Store or sell what you have and travel light and get what you need here.
Any opinions on bringing in a camping trailer to live on lot v$. renting a hotel room in town?
Not sure what hotels run there. I did know a guy who had a camper parked at a campground at Paakmul--not sure how much the rent was but again, travel light and simply is my recommendation. Once you get here and if things go well, you can complicate your life later.
Thank you
You´re welcome.

alex .

May 29, 2003, 8:18 AM

Post #6 of 8 (1582 views)

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Re: [carib] Its the subtle,

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not the obvious, that can make the attempt to start a business difficult. Promises will be made to deliver materials/services on time and they will be delivered late, or not at all. A particular task that has high priority to you may have no importance to the person responsible for its implementation. Construction materials/ vehicles might end up missing/misplaced somehow. Documents have various expiration dates that do not coincide with your build schedule. Unanticipated interaction with the court system provoked by interaction with the local population. "Beating the System" saves upfront costs but increases long term costs. Here is a fantastic scenario of my own invention : Your construction/business is allowed to proceed and grow, seemingly tolerant of the inappropriate visa status. Then comes the day that the business is profitable, now suddenly, the visa status is a problem and you are deported, and some locals now run your business with none of the associated upfront investment.
Please keep us abreast of your adventures, this is going to be a ride...........
Alex
PS In the above scenario, I'll bet a bottle of Jalisco's finest tequila that the locals that end up running the business (assuming it is a success) will be the very same abogados that you contract to get you out of the unplanned trouble. ¿ Puro casualidad ?
Alex

(This post was edited by alex . on May 29, 2003, 8:43 AM)

carib

May 29, 2003, 6:55 PM

Post #7 of 8 (1551 views)

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Re: [alex .] Its the subtle,

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Ah yes, my friend and I call it MST = Mexican Standard Time. While seeing MX clients, they were either 2 hours late for their appt., or they showed up at lunch or on the wrong day. I've already talked to locals to find out who is most reliable in their construction work.

It seems as though I should get the FM3 through the corp. and ask for a work permit in order to work and show employees what to do by example.

I'm on friendly terms with many locals in town. I say hi and talk to everyone, know the only Maja taxi driver (he wants me to teach him English), I've purchased everything in all of their little shops and eateries, including the lady on the back alley that makes fresh bread every a.m., etc. I don't intend to take business away from them-I don't want to reveal my unique ideas, but I'm going to carry and sell things that none of them have and work to be a part of the improving community. It makes no sense to go there for exploitation or cause ill feelings in a small community that I hope to call home.

jrice

Jun 3, 2003, 12:21 AM

Post #8 of 8 (1524 views)

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Re: [carib] Need permit(s) and procedure info for my lot

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Jim made some excellent suggestons, even if the overall thrust may be discouraging. It would be a good idea to come down and spend some time getting a feel for the lay of the land before making a significant investment.

A decade or two ago, things were a lot looser along the coast. But as development has arrived, there is a lot more attention. Much of the area -- not all, but much -- has something like national park or national forest status in law. It not impossible to go to jail for an unconscious bit of illegality. It would pay to determine exactly what you are dealing with before you start clearing anything. What you clear also is significant. Mangroves are very, very touchy issues. The rich hotel developers got into trouble, some of them, for building roads through mangroves without adequate permits.

Then again, your situation may not be a problem at all.

In some ways, Mexican law enforcement -- and laws -- are more forgiving than those north of the border. In othr ways, they are tighter. This is not a lawless paradise by any means.

I would check.