Forums > Areas > Jalisco's Lake Chapala Region

Bucky

Feb 25, 2003, 7:12 AM

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US/Mexico relations

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Posted on another forum but I'm really interested in the Lake Chapala/Guad area. What are the local feelings on US involvement in Iraq? Is it increasing Anti-American sentiment or is it only anti-war sentiment?

esperanza

Feb 25, 2003, 7:54 AM

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Re: [Bucky] US/Mexico relations

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Are you asking about 'feelings' in the local Canadian community, or in the local Mexican community, or in the balance of the other-than-USA local foreign community? Your question presupposes that these 'feelings' are either anti-American or anti-war or both and that these 'sentiments' are increasing. In my experience, most folks have a difficult time separating their feelings from their thoughts. Perhaps you are interested in knowing people's opinions?

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Bucky

Feb 27, 2003, 12:05 PM

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Re: [esperanza] US/Mexico relations

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I reluctantly live away from Ajijic for another year but try and keep up with the comings and goings, doings and activities. TV and radio news is notoriously biased here, depending on to whom you are listening, some contend the station is liberal, others conservative. My issue is that "reports" over the news have Mexico as being actively anti-war vis-a-vis the United States's intervention in Iraq. Oftentimes these assertions are coupled with activities involving citizens in marches, demonstrations, etc. This was not mentioned on the news. My query was to the activity observable by groups of demonstrators anywhere in Mexico against the current US position.

I wholly expect a lack of antipathy for individuals even if there are demonstrations. I equally expect a lack of political demonstration except for the possibility of a few posters outside the US Embassy in Mexico City.

Again, just interested in what's going on by someone who wants to be there. Gimme a year.

esperanza

Feb 27, 2003, 4:44 PM

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Re: [Bucky] US/Mexico relations

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OK Bucky I will quote to you what was reported in the English-language Guadalajara Colony Reporter dated February 22-28, 2003. First, on pages one and two, it was reported: 'President Vicente Fox has said on repeated occasions that Mexico--which currently holds a rotating seat on the United Nations Security Council--is closer allied with Germany and France and wants to give the United Nations more time to determine if Iraq is a threat to world peace....'

In the same issue of that newspaper, on page 5, it was reported that an 'angry and frustrated crowd of about 300 parked themselves in front of Guadalajara's U.S. Consulate General Saturday, February 15 and rained 'missiles' on the building. The missiles were made of cardboard, but along with the chants of 'We don't want war, Bush, you son of a whore' and the burning of the Stars and Stripes, the protestors got their message across. The biggest protest was in Mexico City, where an estimated 50,000 people took to the streets...those outside the U.S. Consulate in Guadalajara, including a handful of U.S. citizens, held up signs that said, 'No War for Oil' and 'Give peace a chance'...an 8-year-old boy stood before the crowd and declared, 'I want to tell Bush to go somewhere else with his war, because they always want to attack the poorest people in the world. And who comes out of it the most screwed? Countries like Mexico.' Being a Saturday, the U.S. Consulate was closed and therefore no Department of State employees were on hand to hear the protestors.'

End quote.

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Bucky

Feb 27, 2003, 5:47 PM

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Re: [esperanza] US/Mexico relations

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I really appreciate your quote. It tells me a good deal, although as with US news sources, I watch the more conservative stations and then liberal for comparison. On the same topic they frequently report widely divergent observations, almost as if they watched different happenings. Where more than a million were reported at a recent march, more accurate observations numbered the participants at no more than 250,000. But 250,000 is a large number.

Again, I am glad for your observations and reporting. Opinions are personal and difficult to ascribe to others. I grew up close to Mexico, have lived in Texas all my life, have been in the interior of Mexico numerous times, and I love the country and people, culture and opinions.

arbon

Feb 27, 2003, 6:36 PM

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Re: [Bucky] US/Mexico relations

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Well Bucky,"this" is not going to help you very much. 4 years ago I was trying to get "live" news about "An Event",I stumbled upon a "World" news collecting service,(it was free for about 3 weeks at the time because of fee pay software problems)......anyway I found all these (different) news items (for Editors to look at) about everything that was going on at that time,...........i.e. "free Lance Reporters"would cover a story & send it in,then "Editors" would chose which story "Version" to use. The point is that some important "News Events", are not shown in any of the "Common" news outlets. .......& then some times you get 250,000 or 750,000 at the same event depending on who is doing the counting.

Rolly

Feb 27, 2003, 8:21 PM

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Re: [arbon] US/Mexico relations

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It's not all that difficult to get a fairly accrete estimate of the size of a crowd. Once you know the square footage of the venue, you can calculate the largest possible number of people who can be in that area. Some reporters take the time to do the calculations, some prefer to view the crown though their own prejudices or hopes.

I spent a lot of years in broadcasting. I even taught broadcasting at a university for a while. I came out of those radio/TV years with a healthy skepticism for what I hear out of the box. There is an old maxim in local broadcast news: "If it bleeds, it leads." I once worked for a radio station in Denver that took that a step farther; every newscast was required to start with a bloody story, If there was nothing on the wire, the newsman was expected to invent one -- and they did.

TV pictures are harder to fake, so maybe we are doing better today. Maybe Uncle Jack, who is an old TV news guy, will join this discussion.

I think the print media are a bit better than the broadcasters.

Rolly Pirate

esperanza

Feb 27, 2003, 8:33 PM

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Re: [arbon] US/Mexico relations

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Do you ever look at the website www.dogpile.com? You can get an enormous variety of 'takes' on what's happening in the world from them.

My friends in Rome tell me that there really were more than a million at the recent anti-war march there. And last spring I participated in an anti-right wing march in France; there were 50,000 in that one.

Oops, I guess now we all know where I stand...LOL.

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arbon

Feb 27, 2003, 8:43 PM

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Re: [esperanza] US/Mexico relations

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"And last spring I participated in an anti-right wing march in France;"

But...I believe you are talking about "Extreme Right" & I don't think too many in Nth'America know (extremes). Cental & Sth America have had there share.

...........Unless the "Puritans" count....

(This post was edited by arbon on Feb 27, 2003, 8:45 PM)

pedro naco

Feb 27, 2003, 8:47 PM

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Re: [arbon] US/Mexico relations

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i am personally somwhere right of attilla the hun -but yet i'm left handed-go figure-eh?

esperanza

Feb 27, 2003, 8:51 PM

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Re: [arbon] US/Mexico relations

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I'm thinking of the Ku Klux Klan, of Tom Metzger and his various white supremacist, neo-Nazi clones, of the current crop of 'mountain men' survivalists, of the John Birch Society, of the so-called 'Moral Majority' of the 70s, of the anti-abortion kill-for-life fanatics, of those who killed Matthew Shepherd...and those are just the ones that come instantly to mind, and all from the good ole USofA.

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arbon

Feb 27, 2003, 9:17 PM

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Re: [esperanza] US/Mexico relations

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OK OK .In France & Holland, maybe I was under the impression that the Extreme Right had a political party,that could have been elected ,on the "National" stage....No?

The ones in the USA that you mentioned,........I was not aware of them being able to be elected,.......what party/partys??

esperanza

Feb 28, 2003, 6:26 AM

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Re: [arbon] US/Mexico relations

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Yes, in France it is Le Front National; LePen was the presidential candidate who was defeated last May. I don't remember the name of the party in Holland, but you are correct.

The extreme right wing political parties in the USA are a lesser presence than those in Europe, but nevertheless usually have space on the ballots. Again, I've been away from the States for long enough that the names of the parties escape me. The situation as I perceive it in the States is more a gradual slide to the right in the mentality of the public, and a more covert right-wing position of many people. The problems of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc are still insidiously present in an enormous number of the population of the States, semi-acknowledged but creating an attitude ripe for a truly charismatic extreme-right-wing personality.

This is what happened in France, and in Holland, in 2002. LePen knew exactly how to push the buttons of the populace, trading on fear, chauvinism, and the economy to bring his party to the fore. In Holland, the same thing happened. And if you notice the 'news' coming from the USA, the fear-mongers are on the loose, the chauvinists are abundant and vocal, and the economy has gone down the drain. IMHO, the only piece missing from the puzzle is the face and the voice of, as I said in the preceding paragraph, someone to lead. God forbid.

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pat

Feb 28, 2003, 9:56 AM

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Re: [esperanza] US/Mexico relations

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And last spring I participated in an anti-right wing march in France; there were 50,000 in that one.

Oops, I guess now we all know where I stand...LOL

Yep, but for the life of me, I can't understand why you seem to be so derned proud or it... :)

Pat

arbon

Feb 28, 2003, 10:15 AM

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Re: [pat] US/Mexico relations

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Pat says..."Yep, but for the life of me, I can't understand why you seem to be so derned proud or it... :)"

Pat, you put a "smile" after the sentence.

Pat, does that mean you belong to one of the following....

the Ku Klux Klan, of Tom Metzger and his various white supremacist, neo-Nazi clones, of the current crop of 'mountain men' survivalists, of the John Birch Society, of the so-called 'Moral Majority' of the 70s, of the anti-abortion kill-for-life fanatics, of those who killed Matthew Shepherd...and those are just the ones that come instantly to mind, and all from the good ole USofA.

If NOT then read all the posts in the thread...!!

pat

Feb 28, 2003, 10:24 AM

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Re: [arbon] US/Mexico relations

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Pat, you put a "smile" after the sentence.

Pat, does that mean you belong to one of the following....

snipped

If NOT then read all the posts in the thread...!!

Nawww, Arbon, I put the "smile" there to indicate I was joking. Did you put the twin exclamation points there to indicate you weren"t?

arbon

Feb 28, 2003, 10:47 AM

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Re: [esperanza] US/Mexico relations

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esperanza much sniped...."creating an attitude ripe for a truly charismatic extreme-right-wing personality." "the only piece missing from the puzzle is the face and the voice of, as I said in the preceding paragraph, someone to lead. God forbid".

Well esperanza...I have to admit,I had not thought that far ahead.........or remembered the "Snowball effect"...
& this is will effect Mexico & Canada.......

esperanza

Feb 28, 2003, 12:54 PM

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Re: [pat] Why I Am Proud of It

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Pat...LePen, the extreme-right-wing French presidential candidate, was perceived by the French to be a threat to freedom and dignity. He espouses many of the same philosophies and theories of 'racial purity' that Hitler espoused in the 30s and 40s and propounded many of the same ideas for racial cleansing that the Nazis did. LePen was in favor of mass deportations of Muslims and other perceived undesirables. The march in which I participated was the largest political march in Eastern France since the 1940s...and the march in the 1940s was in protest against exactly the same extreme-right-wing politics.

These ideas are anathema to the French, with the exception of some who were swayed by LePen's rhetoric: his constant haranguing about crime (Muslim crime, of course), fear of crime (Muslims against French, of course), and the detriment to the economy that the influx of people of color (Muslims, of course) pose to the French.

These ideas are not so far removed from those people and parties in the USA who would have some of us believe that certain populations are somehow lesser people than others; that certain segments of the population of the USA are less worthy than others of living within its boundaries, that certain populations take jobs away from certain other populations, that the majority of crime is committed by certain populations, et cetera. Please feel free to insert the names of populations that YOU choose in those phrases. The pendulum of politics is swinging farther and farther to the right in most countries of the world, and the same changes are happening in the USA...and it is up to the individual to ensure that they do not happen wherever we might be. We must pay attention: an election has been engineered in the States, personal freedoms there have been eroded, the Constitution there has been ignored, and we sit dazed in front of The Bachelor and Survivor and the NFL/NBA/NHL et cetera. We must wake up and examine what it is we truly believe, and what is truly happening in the world.

The reason I am proud to have marched in the French march is that for those three hours, I put one foot in front of the other to make a difference in our world: to do a tiny part to ensure that there will not be another Hitler in our children's or our grandchildren's lifetime...your children and grandchildren as well as mine. For three short hours on a sunny French Saturday, I did something that I truly believed in that in fact did make the world a safer place to live. For three hours I felt joy in joining together with old men and women, young men and women, and children to say: NEVER AGAIN. If we fail to remember our history, we are doomed to repeat it. As I said before, God forbid.

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scott

Feb 28, 2003, 1:40 PM

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Re: [esperanza] Why I Am Proud of It

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For three short hours on a sunny French Saturday, I did something that I truly believed in that in fact did make the world a safer place to live. For three hours I felt joy in joining together with old men and women, young men and women, and children to say: NEVER AGAIN. If we fail to remember our history, we are doomed to repeat it. As I said before, God forbid.

It's like when high school students decide to have a protest against the budget cuts, so they all skip classes and go hang out in front of the school, and call it a protest. Sure there might be a core group of people who feel passionately about the issue, but the majority are just there because everybody's doing it. Its cool or something, they want to check out whats going on. In Ontario those are common occurences, by the way, I don't know about elsewhere.

Although one thing I have taken notice of, in an admirable sort of way, is the tolerance and abundance of public protests and marches here, in this city at least. It seems any group with enough people to sprawl out across the busiest 4 lane road downtown can do it, if they so desire, and get away with it. The police will just stand by and reroute the traffic. This is what I've notice, anyways.

arbon

Feb 28, 2003, 2:13 PM

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Re: [scott] Why I Am Proud of It

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"It's like when high school students decide to have a protest against the budget cuts, so they all skip classes and go hang out in front of the school, and call it a protest. Sure there might be a core group of people who feel passionately about the issue, but the majority are just there because everybody's doing it. Its cool or something, they want to check out whats going on. In Ontario those are common occurences, by the way, I don't know about elsewhere."

No Scott,This has more to do with what you learn in "History Class" when in school.

esperanza

Feb 28, 2003, 8:02 PM

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Re: [scott] Why I Am Proud of It

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Scott, I and many others have been on the side of peace and justice~out there on the frontlines~since years before you were born. Your high school experiences of student protest don't equate to worldwide outrage at the injustice and of war, and a bunch of kids giggling because they're skipping half a day of school doesn't equate to serious, well-thought-out nonviolent civil disobedience. Don't belittle the gravity of those of us who are willing to work for peace, freedom, and equality in this world.

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Feb 28, 2003, 9:37 PM

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Re: [esperanza] Why I Am Proud of It

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Just curious, as I do the math ... Is that response along the same lines of what your parents told you (the general you, not you specifically) while protesting in the 60s? Guess what, kids today aren't that different thank kids before. Just because you're older doesn't mean your opinions are more valid, and just because Scott is younger doesn't mean his opinion is less valid.

Another thing to consider, the last two Presidents of the United States (covering my political bases here) were both YOUNGER than Mick Jagger. Just stating that to show the disparity of the ideologies of the Baby Boomer generations.

People fight for peace in different ways. Sometimes it means marching in a peace parade in France, sometimes it means marching into Paris to liberate a country. Peace, freedom and equality rarely exist at the same time.

scott

Feb 28, 2003, 9:40 PM

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Re: [esperanza] Why I Am Proud of It

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World peace?? You mean like, the next time Saddam starts a war with his neighboring countries??

The government of the United States can be really arrogant, and do a lot of things to piss a lot of people off. But when they are willing to spend millions upon millions of dollars to do something that will help the entire world, I don't see how you can be against it. If they are willing to spend millions if not billions of dollars riding the world of the likes of the Taliban, then who are we to complain. Oh yeah, I forgot. They are just doing it for the oil, right? If it were just about that like I see many of you say, I'm sure they could come up with a good excuse to go invade Venezuela, right about now.

If you are really into helping protect freedom, why don't you go organize a protest against the new Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System, or the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, and other stupid things like that? You know, like when they make laws that say if you do something in Russia that is legal in Russia, you can be thrown in jail when you come to the USA to give a scholastic presentation? Or go fight against the deporting of Canadians to Syria, never to be heard from again. But riding the world of Saddam Hussein in and of itself, is a good thing.

And you aren't doing anything to help the people of Iraq. They will be better off freed of their heinous leader.