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scott

Dec 31, 2002, 1:19 AM

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Personal Freedom in Mexico

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So my goal with the article I am writing is to make people aware of "some" of the differences between life in Canada and life in Mexico.

Can we debate the merits of the differences on this list sometime?

Personally, I care more about personal freedom than anything. And the people of Mexico are much freer than those of any other North American country, no matter what psuedo patriotic tripe their presidents and prime mististers spit out.

You guys are complaining about noise.. Well, for me, I'd rather listen to my neighbors music once in a while, than have two men with guns show up at my house threatening me, such as what would typically happen in Canada. If you really need dead quiet, consider a little farm house out in the country, or something. Even with the trucks, its more important that anyone has the freedom to go drive around in a pick up and call themselve a garbage man, even if it means lots of loud trucks going by everyday, than having 1 government appointed truck come less than every week, where I am from in Canada. And paying $2 a bag no less, in many jurisdictions. I'll happily listen to the loud trucks and cow bells and pay 2 PESOS a bag, than $2 for crummy every 8-10 day service.

I guess thats probably part of the mentality you need to have or accept to enjoy some of the differences here. I'd rather listen to loud dirt bikes going through my neighborhood, than having dirt bikes outlawed period on the roads in that other country. This is how I feel. I'd happily put up with having the freedom to do whatever you feel like, than have all kinds of silly rules and regulations governing noise, etc.

I could extend this reasoning into many different areas. For example, the pitiful health care system in Canada. Sorry sir, you can't see that doctor for three months, and no, you can't go find another one because its against the law to pay for health care in our country. There are many differences I guess, but just make sure you are fair about it.


(This post was edited by jennifer rose on Dec 31, 2002, 7:30 AM)



keith

Dec 31, 2002, 9:33 AM

Post #2 of 58 (8223 views)

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Re: [scott] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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I tend to agree with you on this one, Scott. When we were in the intitial stages of building our place, from time I'd ask my partner, "Did you get these plans approved?" and we'd have a laugh. I also kind of like it that you can just start a business in your front room or in front of your house, no matter what kind of neighborhood you live in. Mexicans tend to take pride in this nobody-tells-me-what-I-can-or-can't-do attitude. There is a joke about a sinking ship: the first mate reports to the captain that all the passengers were willing to abandon ship except for those three guys over there, a Frenchman, a gringo, and a Mexican. So, the captain tells one, "Everyone's doing it in Paris this season." Over the rail he goes. To the gringo he says, "Do it for your country." Oh, all right, then," says the gringo, and in he goes. To the Mexican he says, "No diving allowed!" "Ah, quien chingados me va decir que no!" and off he jumps.

There is a down side to this agresssive individualism. You used the example of the independent garbage man. Ever wonder where all the trash gets dumped? The sierra Tarahumara is a beautiful place, but if you drive between San Juanito and Creel, for instance, try finding a place in the trees along the road that doesn't have garbage dumped there.

And despite periodic political movements with lots of people chanting "El pueblo unido jamas sera vencido!", it's pretty hard for the individuals to cooperate long-term. There is "family," and there is "compadrismo", and there is a lot of talk about solidaridad, but in general personal freedom, individualism often ends up being "me, me, me, and everybody else be damned," or even worse. I like the allegory of a bunch of people being trapped in a pit. One of them struggles and is close to being able to escape, to climb out of the pit. If there is a spirit of cooperation, those still lower in the pit, seeing that he has a chance to escape, give him a boost, help him get over the edge in hopes that once he has escaped he will reach back in and help them escape too. If you don't have that spirit of cooperation, though, as soon as all the individualists see that someone is doing better than they are, not only do they not cooperate, they tend to do their best to pull him back down to their level.

Finding the right balance is hard.


raferguson


Dec 31, 2002, 4:43 PM

Post #3 of 58 (8093 views)

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Re: [scott] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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Whether Mexico is more or less free than the USA depends on what you look at.

If you look at the percentage of GDP taken in Taxes, Mexico is much lower the USA, which is lower than Canada.

The assertion was made that in Mexico, you can just open a business anywhere, no problem. Actually, the Mexican chamber of commerce complains bitterly about all the bureaucracy and tramites that are required to open a business, if you do all the required paperwork. I don't have a copy of that article, but I remember that opening a business in Mexico City required something like 150 approvals and signatures from the government. Obviously, to get that many approvals in a timely manner may require paying a bribe. Naturally, many businesses do not have all those approvals, but this leaves them open to a bureaucrat asking for a bribe to "overlook" the missing paperwork.

The bureaucracy also facilitates government corruption, and reduces the benefits of the lower taxes that the Mexicans pay. One study claims that crime costs Mexicans 12 % of the GDP. Another study claims that bribes take up 6% of the total cost of operating a business in Mexico.

The low taxes mean low salaries for bureaucrats, which encourages corruption among police and bureaucrats alike.

Mexico is number two worldwide in kidnapping, freedom for kidnappers but not for victims. I was just watching "Y Tu mama tambien", a Mexican movie, that includes one party scene where the kids counted 18 bodyguards at the party. Even the kid's chauffer carried a gun. In Mexico, if you have money, you are free to hire armed bodyguards.

If you look at the 20th century, Mexico has been a leftist state, with limited personal freedom and limited free markets. There are really appalling stories, not from that long ago, about the government not tolerating any organizations to exist unless they are sponsored by the official party, such as forcing college chess clubs to affiliate with the PRI. Remember the Cristero wars, basically the government against the Catholic church, of the 1920s and 1930s. Not much religious freedom if the government is closing churches and executing priests. In 1968, the government killed hundreds of demonstrating students and then covered it all up.

The Heritage Foundation's index of economic freedom puts the US at 6, Canada at 18, and Mexico at 56. The limited economic freedom in Mexico is part of the reason for Mexico's limited economic success in the last 20 years. More info at the link below.

I recently read a commentator who basically said that Mexico had squandered their excellent position as a neighbor to the biggest economy in the world, with a free trade treaty. In his view, the Mexican economic growth was very poor, taking into account their excellent trade position.

In short, in Mexico, you may have more personal freedom to make a mess in your yard and makes lots of noise, but that does not mean that you are free in many other senses.

http://cf.heritage.org/...x/indexoffreedom.cfm


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


Jim in Cancun

Dec 31, 2002, 7:51 PM

Post #4 of 58 (8068 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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Hi.

Good discussion--depends on how one defines freedom it seems.

(Please check the link--It gives me an error message.)


raferguson


Dec 31, 2002, 8:18 PM

Post #5 of 58 (7964 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Corrected Link

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The Heritage foundation link below should work.

I suggest you click on the "view scores" in the box "simple search", but there are lots of ways to look at the data, or you can read the text.

http://www.heritage.org/...arch/features/index/


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


samson

Jan 1, 2003, 8:58 AM

Post #6 of 58 (7909 views)

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Re: [scott] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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Mexican "freedom" is certainly a two edged sword. I appreciate many of the things it allows but the negatives can be a darn nuisance. Like my friends up the street whose next door neighbours turned their yard into a shop for fiberglassing boats and doing body work on cars. The noise wasn't as bad as the chemicals odours floating around. Or my Canadian neighbours who built their dream house only to have a neighbour start raising fighting roosters. He hasn't had a good sleep since. I spent quite a few nights awake till 2-the noise from the party lot up the street is so loud it shakes my windows. If you complain they tell you to go home. They certainly restrict the freedom of foreigners; can't own land in this or that place, can't open a bank account, can't do this with your car, are singled out for harassment by the police, etc.


Capt_Canada

Jan 1, 2003, 9:01 AM

Post #7 of 58 (7841 views)

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Re: [scott] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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The number 1 rule is that there are no rules, but if you encounter a legal situation you will find there are all kinds of unwritten rules, some very costly. Ask the people who did not have the money or contacts to stay out of the main prison population.


esperanza

Jan 1, 2003, 10:13 AM

Post #8 of 58 (7884 views)

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Re: [samson] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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Why in the world would you not be able to open a bank account? What can't you do with your car? And in my experience, oftentimes 'singled out for harrassment by the police' translates to 'didn't understand the law in the first place, broke it unwittingly, and the policeman saw me'. Those of us who come to Mexico expecting the 'rules' to be the same as the rules in our countries of origin are doomed to frustration, unhappiness, and resentment. Those of us who come expecting Mexico to be Mexico usually experience peace and contentment. And AMEN...if we don't like where we are, we really should go somewhere else, because it's not our job to change Mexico.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









samson

Jan 1, 2003, 10:36 AM

Post #9 of 58 (7872 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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I don't know why they restrict foreigners from opening bank accounts. It is very difficult to sell your car in Mexico if you want to. I (and many others) understand the law clearly and didn't break it. For example the police watch for foreign plated car and nab them for going through a yellow light (not illegal) parking where they say is illegal (but isn't) etc. I know quite a few people that have had these type of problems. It is easier to pay the bribe than to try and fight it as since you are a foreigner your word means little. I have never expected the rules in Mexico to be the same as at home-who would-it is a different country. I would just like to see them applied fairly. Just because it is Mexico doesn't mean injustice is okay.


Mereja

Jan 1, 2003, 10:51 AM

Post #10 of 58 (7869 views)

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Re: [samson] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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I have never expected the rules in Mexico to be the same as at home-who would-it is a different country. I would just like to see them applied fairly.


Part of what you say applys in the US also only the reverse. My husband has experienced it many times. For example, twice he was stopped and asked for proof of insurance. Both times he had proof of insurance but was given a ticket for not having insurance anyway. He had to miss a day of work to go to court, where he showed proof of insurance and the policeman didn't show up anyway and so of course he was not charged anything, but he missed a day of work each time. One of the times he was going 38 mph in a 35 mph zone. The day after my husband was stopped, a man who works with my husband (gabacho) was stopped in the same area for going 50mph in a 35 mph zone. He had no insurance and driver's license. He was given a warning. This was by the same policeman that stopped my husband. Where ever you go, you will find the same problems. Some people are fair and some are not.

Most of the time there are good reasons for the laws. For example the reason why you cannot sell your car in Mexico. You can always come home to the US and maybe try Canada or some other country.


Capt_Canada

Jan 1, 2003, 12:07 PM

Post #11 of 58 (7801 views)

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Re: [Mereja] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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Ref to your husband having proof of insurance and still getting a ticket for not having insurance in the US, this sounds a little hard to believe, in fact if this was the case the court would throw out the charge and probably additionally the police person would be in trouble. It's great to have the personal freedom in mexico but on the other side of the coin there is not the rights and support structure available as there is in Canada and the US once you do encounter trouble. Often in Mexico once you are accused you must prove your innocence based on the rule of law and not on an individual circumstance as it pertains to the rule of law and once you are part of the system you do not find checks and balances but rather quite often egos, status and wealth.


tomgibbs

Jan 1, 2003, 2:51 PM

Post #12 of 58 (7827 views)

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Re: [Mereja] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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You are right, this stuff happens up here all the time. The Mexicans accept it as the way life is here but they never accept it as right. some years ago, my son-in-law was pulling out of his parking place in front of his home and was stopped by the police. Asked for his license, he said it was in his home and would get it, then didn't allow it. They asked his name, and he told them. They asked his occupation, and he said he was a college student. They asked where, he said Harvard. They'd had enough, they took him to the station and locked him up - his dad had to come and get him out. Five years later he held 2 Presidential Pens for legislation he authored. Still a Virginia highway patrolman would pull him over on a peaceful stretch of road for a seatbelt check - a cheap trick with Mexicans. Yes, he had it on. My daughter, who was with him, thinks the cop was just doing what he could to keep the social order straight.


Mereja

Jan 1, 2003, 3:43 PM

Post #13 of 58 (7822 views)

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Re: [Capt_Canada] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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One of the times that this happened, we had just changed insurance companies and they gave us the usual receipt and form that is proof of insurance until the cards arrive in the mail. The police didn't want to accept that proof from him. When we went to court, the policeman did not go and it was thrown out. We were there for maybe 1/2 hour before my husband's case came up and probably less than 5 minutes for the judge to look at proof of insurance and that was it. But my husband's works where you can't just go get in your car and go and come back. They go in a company truck to the job site, at times it is 3-4 or more hours away. So he ended up missing the whole day of work.

I didn't know much about discrimination until I married him. I never had any problem before renting apartments, or getting my deposit back until I married him. Once we were going to buy a mobile home and wanted to park it in a nice mobile home park. When we went to apply the man told us the size we were going to buy was too small for the space. I went back 2 or 3 times but he wouldn't budge. At the time my husband had just started a new job installing mobile homes. One of the first ones that he installed was in that space and the same size as the one we were going to buy.


(This post was edited by Mereja on Jan 1, 2003, 5:58 PM)


Capt_Canada

Jan 1, 2003, 4:20 PM

Post #14 of 58 (7746 views)

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Re: [tomgibbs] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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Unfortunately or fortunately the police can't read minds and true intentions, hence many questions are asked. The bottom line is if you drive you must have a license with you to be legal. As far as a seatbelt check that's a normal possibility for a stop. Your narrative sounds very subjective in your son's favor as opposed to reasonable police procedure. As a like example up in Ottawa there was a local politician who was charged with something and his emotional reasoning was very subjective as well, almost to the point of "Do you know who I am". The bottom line is it doesn't matter, the law is the law and that's for all the citizens of the country. If you do the crime most likely you will do the time.


Leslie D' Crus

Jan 1, 2003, 4:55 PM

Post #15 of 58 (7790 views)

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Re: [Capt_Canada] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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I wish you could remove the Capt-Canada motif - the rest if fine. The quality of your coment may bring disrepute to Canada.


Capt_Canada

Jan 1, 2003, 4:59 PM

Post #16 of 58 (7728 views)

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Re: [Leslie D' Crus] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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I don't see any wisdom in your post, what are you trying to express?


Gary sculptari

Jan 1, 2003, 6:28 PM

Post #17 of 58 (7756 views)

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Re: [Capt_Canada] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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Cap't Canada - that is some wild icon! Is that how your head feels this morning?

The police up here in Vancouver (city - not R.C.M.P.) got so bored this summer they dressed up like 'squeegee kids' in order catch those darn seatbelt scofflaws. At the same time, the most vicious, depressing drug corridor in the world is right next door to the police department.


tomgibbs

Jan 1, 2003, 6:59 PM

Post #18 of 58 (7755 views)

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Re: [Capt_Canada] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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There wasn't a crime.

But you got the point - we think the law should be equally applied to all citizens, and enforcement should not be subjectively applied. Now, I frequently forget to move my wallet when I change my pants (or do I change my pants frequently and forget my wallet?). I've been stopped without my wallet, and with my wallet but license almost a year expired. These are life's little administrative problems and the police here understand that, for me at least.

"the police can't read minds and true intentions" ...... but they were trying to, and they imagined negative ones. They shouldn't do that.... Do you think?

But then this all happened in a simpler time. These are all big issues today in a world of Homeland Security. Distinguishing between Islamic terrorists and Mexicans is going to take some judgment on occasion. Thank God, so far the terrorists have not disguised themselves as meat packing plant workers in Nebraska. Their instructions were to melt in, which led them to swimming pool condos in Florida, California, and Arizona with credit cards, computer internet access, and aspirations to be airline pilots. Jeez, when's the last time a paperless Mexican immigrant was in airline pilot school?

Suspicion is worthwhile mental safety activity, correctly applied. But there again, judgment.


capt_canada

Jan 1, 2003, 8:32 PM

Post #19 of 58 (7750 views)

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Re: [tomgibbs] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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I would agree that judgement is an important factor and as a policeman once told me that every police person has a lot of discretionary power within their powers however I suspect that after Sept 11 it's more by the book than ever. I don't like racial profiling or racism anywhere. As far as squeegee kids, the worst ones I ever encountered were driving through Guadalajara, talk about being aggressive and using dirty water at the same time. I see both sides of the coin, the law is the law and yet when a citizen is in violation of the law most times they have a myriad of excuses as to why the law should be overlooked and not applied in their case. If you watch Judge Judy you know exactly what I mean. And speaking to the Canadian poster the biggest problem BC police have is general lawlessness or disrespect of the law. From my experience in Mexico I would say that most people in Mexico have great respect for the law and in some respects it helps having such a strong police presence down there such as there is because I believe it reinforces the level of respect.



(This post was edited by capt_canada on Jan 1, 2003, 8:37 PM)


tomgibbs

Jan 1, 2003, 10:14 PM

Post #20 of 58 (7788 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Personal Freedom in Mexico

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Well anyway, back to the topic - about more or less personal freedom in Mexico. This has been a longtime interest of mine: and, I’ll bet, an attraction for many: from the Texas redneck hooting it up in a border bar to college kids in Cancun.



Now the Heritage Foundation is not exactly the Red Cross in the sense of being agenda free. Who gets to pick the category criteria and the measurement system in there evaluation? One of the things I liked about this discussion was that it was a grass roots item discussion, both pro and con. If someone says take a taste of this fresh apple, you are dealing with a reality and you can personally evaluate the apple's effect on you. If someone says take a look at the apple market, you can't see any apples at all, only abstract apple policy. You cannot taste the apple. One could be an expert on the aggregate apple market and never have eaten an apple, it's not required to have taste experience. That is how the Heritage Foundation approaches the freedom issue, with abstract criteria. But personal freedom is a personal experience issue, either you experience it, or you don't. Regardless of the presence or absense of a personal freedom policy one will or will not experience a personal freedom.



Actually, I think escape from abstraction is one of the attractions of Mexico, especially data and management abstraction. The American ability to put management abstraction into action so readily doesn’t leave much room for these eccentric individual freedoms outside the range of planned possibly. And sure, there is money in mining these abstractions, but the work doesn’t produce poets. It seems in Mexico that plans don’t often execute efficiently.



Maybe in Mexico what one is experiencing is more chaos (a negative tainted word that can be brightened up by substituting serendipity….. as you like it.). A poorer government is less able to vigorously pursue it's interests, the people's interests, or it's bidders' interests. Into that vacuum will likely move whatever has energy. In the case of this discussion some folks are noticing that energy is the energy of la gente grasping small opportunities like opening a tienda in there front room. In his a recent book Crossing Over: A Mexican Family on the Migrant Trail the author Ruben Martinez thinks that the poorer, darker Mexican population are the people on the move. In the historical sense they have the life's energy. I think it is the same energy that the expanding European population of the 17th, 18th, and 19th Centuries had when it migrated to America and then pushed across the continent, formed a country, and became a global power. Now the energy is coming form a different direction: the vanquished of 500 years prior are having the faith in life to have big families and they are energetically following the crumbs of opportunity all the way up to packing plants in northern Wisconsin. Meanwhile, European population is in serious trouble with a fertility rate of as low as 1.2 per couple. They are going to have to do one heck of a lot of high energy thinking to substitute for the missing force of people energy; or accept the results of the vacuum. But likely, they won’t have to compete very heavily for jobs. There won’t be enough of them to push the wheelchairs in 30 years.



I think chaos is an energy force stronger than insurance actuary tables. The relationship between chaos and order may be an ongoing tension drama rather than the orderly path of necessary economic development culminating in a euphoric consumer society. Chaos is the romantic force. With order you know what you get. The reason you can predict is because the range of possibilities has been drastically simplified. Chaos is full of danger, as well as some charm; and, it has a lot of dark possibilities. But then, order isn’t free from sin.



Neither governments nor economic systems are bestowing these little personal freedoms being discuss here, people with the primal energy of life are simply taking them; and thus forming a culture. For instance, Mexican immigrants living here in the north live in a world of risks: it's illegal to be illegal, it illegal to drive without a license, it illegal to drive without insurance, it illegal to work without a permit, it illegal to .....etc. Their crumbs don't come easy, or cheap. They live in a world of these little taken personal freedoms because, for one, they can’t play by the rules if they wanted too. Did I, even for a minute, think that the lady from Guerrero selling elotes con chili y queso on the street in Spanish Harlem had a permit? She improved my experience in Manhattan a great deal that day (and the corn was only 20% higher than what I paid in Zacatecas… and no sales tax). I hope the sun still shines on her. Yup, the mayo could have been bad…..but it wasn’t. Actually, my wife and I both got food poisoning 3 weeks ago at McDonald’s in Decorah, IA (probably the mayo). And nobody ever accused McDonald’s of a lack of intention to organize and apply order. Now I could pursue McDonald’s in an orderly fashion by hiring a lawyer to orderly push an army of corporate defense lawyers through a series courtrooms over a period of some years; or I could abandon the pursuit of order and eat another illegal elote on the streets of NYC.



What I experience in the chaos of personal freedoms in Mexico is what I think is the right soil conditions for creativity. For instance, I like the heightened sense of materiality in the rustico esthetic, where chaos is barely managed and lurking just beneath the surface. There is also more personal risk – should I eat at this stand or not, or if I stumble on the street…. I should have been looking where I was going. Now the last persons to appreciate the value of this type of personal risk would be those economic and political theorists busy crowing about value to society of risk taking and the Darwinian importance of rewarding the risk-taker entrepreneur.



All in all, it is a more existential way of life, a little closer to the edge. Music or actuary tables?


alex .

Jan 2, 2003, 7:32 AM

Post #21 of 58 (7700 views)

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Re: [scott] freedoms to creativity?

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Its a loose link, I think. Can creativity not emerge from from well kept, orderly, neighborhoods? All of Mexico is not El Rancho, you know, though folks often bring el Rancho with them to the city. I spent my Christmas cleaning the apartment after our tennants left. I supose they felt that their creativity was being squelched because:

No, you can't pitch the trash over the balcony to the courtyard below,
No, you can't build a fire from used clothing in the house to keep warm,
No, you can't part out a station wagon in the assigned parking space,
No,
you can't play music at full volume til 5 am,
No, you cannot store iodine, muriatic acid, psudophedrin, hot plates, and beakers in the bedroom,
No, you cannot sell the stove and refrigerator that comes with the house,
No you cannot steal the cable TV from the next door neighbor,
No, the folks you met at the bus station cannot live here with you.

Their response : "When you pay our rent then you can tell us what to do"

yea, a real creative bunch, they are.

Alex


Randy in AGS

Jan 2, 2003, 11:00 AM

Post #22 of 58 (7733 views)

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Re: [tomgibbs] Mexicans I know prefer law & order to chaos...

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Tom: Your well written post is an example of why many people move to Mexico. However, we are not all rednecks in a border bar or vomiting high school spring breakers in Cancun. As a matter of fact, I find just the contrary to your opinion to be true here in Mexico.

Yes, there are less restrictions here in Mexico. However, Mexicans I know prefer order to chaos. They like the garbage truck to arrive on time three times per week, scoff at people who throw garbage on the street calling them 'mal-educados' (without manners), and grafitti pains them to no end. They give the Police a hard time when they ask for a mordida, insisting on having the ticket instead. They watch with civic pride as the new street sweeper cruises down main street. These are just many examples of the Mexico I live in every day.

The Mexicans I know living in Mexico are extremely punctual. I was late for a date once when single and dating in Guadalajara, that was a big no-no; I sure didn't let it happen twice. After living here for two years, every person I have had an appointment with has been on time within ten minutes. My Mexican family is extremely neat and formal. Mexico is a much more formal society. You must dress to the nines here; no shorts or jeans to church, weddings or parties.

Mexicans won't neccesarily tell you when you are 'out of bounds' as folks do in other countries, and sometimes tourists mistake that for acceptance. Mexicans tolerate more, but that doesn't mean they like it when you wear shorts to a wedding!

Yes, I guess you have more personal freedom here to do whatever you like, but as Richard pointed out, there is a downside to that also.



tomgibbs

Jan 2, 2003, 11:45 AM

Post #23 of 58 (7693 views)

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Re: [Randy in AGS] Mexicans I know prefer law & order to chaos...

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Randy; I see that border-Cancun image was a shortcoming in my writing. I think the siren call of chaos is a big ingredient to the crowd that seeks those extreme attractions. My shortcoming was in not outright indicating the major precense of thinking sensitive northerners living in Mexico. The sensibility is in the person and not in the location.

You can have more personal freedom here in the states also, if you accept the downside of accompanying risks.


Randy in AGS

Jan 2, 2003, 1:33 PM

Post #24 of 58 (7691 views)

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Re: [tomgibbs] Spring breakers and their indifferance to culture...

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Tom: Don't take my post as a total criticism of your original post. I know you are looking at Mexico through a more existentialist prism.

Your example of spring breakers partying here in Mexico has two sides; I have seen girls as young as fourteen being served Tequila in the bars in various beach resorts over the years. Whether this is right or wrong I will leave up to you.

I have some beautiful (inside & out) Alteña teenage nieces . We all went on a family vacation to Vallarta this last summer. These are really nice and innocent girls with excellent values instilled in them by their families; none of the pierced and tatooed MTV look/values as is the case in the USA. They really like Gringo boys, so one night they went to a disco in Vallarta hoping to meet some nice boys, but all of the drunk Gringo boys (ages 16 to 20) insisted on doing the bump & grind simulated-sex-that-passes-for-dancing in the USA. These girls don't do that, and left with their feelings hurt. Now, these boys did exactly what they wanted, but see the downside? They had absolutely no respect for what these girls from a differant culture felt. Unfortunately, this kind of behavior is repeated over and over again by tourists to Mexico. Respect and basic manners are all that these beautiful, innocent girls wanted, and the Gringo boys couldn't even come close to being decent human beings because they were too busy doing whatever the heck they wanted to do.

We do have more freedom without the government breathing down our backs here. However, look at the situation in the USA; they are basically at war, so you have to allow some intrusion into personal freedoms in times of war, in spite of what the ACLU will tell you.



(This post was edited by Randy in AGS on Jan 2, 2003, 1:39 PM)


scott

Jan 2, 2003, 3:43 PM

Post #25 of 58 (7650 views)

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Re: [Randy in AGS] Spring breakers and their indifferance to culture...

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Randy,

In Canada grinding is the norm. What you see at Frogs is a whole lot different from a typical place at home. I know your nieces are nice girls and everything. But think about it from the guys perspective too, yes I'm for real, they have probably never danced the way they do here, three feet away from the girl. I can tell you coming from Canada what I see here is very wierd. Even the common dances, like the achy breaky heart song that everyone seems to know, you would never see that at home. So maybe the gringos boys are just doing the only thing they know how?
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