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Gringal

Nov 25, 2015, 8:45 AM

Post #1 of 29 (10118 views)

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Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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There are all kinds of emotional opinions about whether mascotas should or should not be allowed in restaurants.
Trying to get a straight answer about what the actual law is, is almost impossible. It's not "Googleable", or at least I can't find the answer.

However, we have some people on here who are legally savvy and can probably come up with a good English translation of the law. I'd appreciate hearing from someone like that.

It became a big issue a few years ago in San Miguel de Allende. Fines were levied: protest marches took place.
Here in Lakeside, people pressure restaurants and owners give in. Everyone seems vague on just where, if at all, they can legally put their pup while dining. Policies are vague and varied. Answers?



rvgringo

Nov 25, 2015, 9:22 AM

Post #2 of 29 (10115 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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Years ago, I read the law and the operable phrase is, “Animals are not permitted in areas of food preparation or elaboration“. So, it is obvious that animals are not permitted in kitchens, but the fuzzy part is the “elaboration“ clause, which would seem to indicate that any area where a restaurant had a buffet, salad bar, prepared salsas or salads at table-side, prepared hand-made tortillas or presented desert trays, would also be areas prohibited to animals. That would seem to include most dining areas, including many patio dining areas. Even a waiter grating cheese on your pasta would fit this clause.
I doubt that anything more definite will be found, which leaves a lot of fuzzy space for a health inspector‘s interpretation, which is the way, and the intent, of many laws.


RickS


Nov 25, 2015, 11:17 AM

Post #3 of 29 (10100 views)

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Re: [rvgringo] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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"....a health inspector‘s interpretation"

OK, I'm going to show my ignorance..... there IS such a thing at Lakeside?


Gringal

Nov 25, 2015, 11:48 AM

Post #4 of 29 (10097 views)

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Re: [RickS] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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Ho ho ho.
There may or may not be such a thing at Lakeside, but there was indeed, in San Miguel de Allende.


AlanMexicali


Nov 25, 2015, 12:51 PM

Post #5 of 29 (10091 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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Ho ho ho.
There may or may not be such a thing at Lakeside, but there was indeed, in San Miguel de Allende.



The Secretaria de Salud has rules against dogs entering restaurants in all of Mexico. It is prohibited by the sanitation laws.


Gringal

Nov 25, 2015, 1:20 PM

Post #6 of 29 (10085 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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So you happen to know where a copy of this law can be found, or a translation into English?


AlanMexicali


Nov 25, 2015, 1:30 PM

Post #7 of 29 (10082 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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So you happen to know where a copy of this law can be found, or a translation into English?



I asked my wife who almost 2 years ago retired as a Licenciada-top administrator in the Secretaria de Salud. She was there for 38 years and knows most rules/laws.


Gringal

Nov 25, 2015, 1:34 PM

Post #8 of 29 (10081 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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Can she get a copy of the law, por favor?

Reason: In the Lakeside area, people seem to be under the impression that as long as there are no dogs in the kitchen, it's okay to bring them into the restaurant itself. Several of us are trying to settle the argument by finding out what the law says in Mexico on the subject.


Gringal

Dec 2, 2015, 6:25 AM

Post #9 of 29 (9861 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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One forum member in the local Chapala forum went to the trouble of making an appointment with a local lawyer to find out what the rules were. There is more information he is trying to find about how the laws are applied in Jalisco or in the immediate area around Lake Chapala, but so far, the upshot is that "dogs are not allowed in areas where food is prepared", which is much looser than saying they are not allowed "in restaurants".

This would conflict with the information AlanMexicali posted. I had started a thread about whether or not that list of "dog friendly" restaurants were legally so, or whether the owners had just caved in to pressure.

Naturally, the people who like to dine with dogs are cheering and those who don't, are booing. Now everyone is confused. Any comments?


playaboy

Dec 2, 2015, 7:51 AM

Post #10 of 29 (9848 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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For most restaurants, I like my dog medium rare served with tortilla en mano y pico de gallo.


chinagringo


Dec 2, 2015, 8:25 AM

Post #11 of 29 (9846 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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Given the inconsistency with both laws or rules/regulations in Mexico, I would think one would have to determine if this is a Federal, State or Local matter?

As for the inconsiderate and self-centered dog fanatics who think it is their right to bring Fido into the interior of a restaurant - they should be sent packing! If a restaurant has outdoor seating that is accessible without going through the interior restaurant space, they I guess I have no problem with Fido as long as it stays on the ground and behaves in a manner acceptable to other diners.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Gringal

Dec 2, 2015, 8:33 AM

Post #12 of 29 (9844 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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Alan Mexicali's earlier post indicated the law is throughout Mexico. Am waiting to hear what the lawyer finds out about how it is applied locally.

My sentiments go along with ChinaGringo's . Patio is okay; inside is another matter.


Chapala Payaso

Dec 2, 2015, 8:38 AM

Post #13 of 29 (9841 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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Of course individual patron likes and dislikes are trumped by the prevailing law and then by the proprietor.


cbviajero

Dec 2, 2015, 9:33 AM

Post #14 of 29 (9823 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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In Guadalajara you don't see many dogs in restaraunts,maybe it's a gringa thing.


bronco

Dec 2, 2015, 9:36 AM

Post #15 of 29 (9823 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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even if this is against the law, the restauarant owners allow it. if this helps his business, then the rules will be ignored. i would not go to a place w/dogs. im sure the lakeside businesses pay off inspectors. so many places cater to elderly expats w/animals.


Gringal

Dec 2, 2015, 9:46 AM

Post #16 of 29 (9818 views)

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Re: [cbviajero] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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It's definitely a foreigner thing. I've seldom seen a Mexican bring anything larger than a "purse dog" (which remains in the purse) into a restaurant. The problem seems to be that the restaurant business is so competitive in the area that the owners have an 'anything goes' attitude in order to help the bottom line.

Those of us who object to this can't add "but this is illegal and you might be fined" if we speak to the owner, and that's why I was curious about how legal or illegal the practice is. Mystery, at this point.


chinagringo


Dec 2, 2015, 9:49 AM

Post #17 of 29 (9816 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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Since the Fido Fanatics often refer to their precious pets as "Fur kids" - can the same laws or regulations be applied to their poorly raised kids or grand kids? Many of them haven't earned the right to act up in public or sit at a table in a nice restaurant either!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Gringal

Dec 2, 2015, 10:06 AM

Post #18 of 29 (9814 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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The unruly kids thing is probably hopeless, since there's no law against it, or likely ever will be. It's up to the restaurant owner, once again, to decide how much is "too much" and what to do about it.

A wise one once said "children are born savages and it's up to their parents to civilize them." Covers it.


cbviajero

Dec 2, 2015, 10:28 AM

Post #19 of 29 (9810 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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The unruly kids thing is probably hopeless, since there's no law against it, or likely ever will be. It's up to the restaurant owner, once again, to decide how much is "too much" and what to do about it.

A wise one once said "children are born savages and it's up to their parents to civilize them." Covers it.

My kids and grand kids were born civilized,I didn't have to do anything.
I do like the very sensible practice of many restaraunts here that provide play grounds for the kids.


(This post was edited by cbviajero on Dec 2, 2015, 10:59 AM)


Gringal

Dec 2, 2015, 12:08 PM

Post #20 of 29 (9789 views)

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Re: [cbviajero] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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"born civilized"? You're a lucky man. Mine took some doing, and on occasion, some "removing" when things went too far sideways in a restaurant.


AlanMexicali


Dec 3, 2015, 6:11 AM

Post #21 of 29 (9741 views)

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Re: [bronco] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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even if this is against the law, the restauarant owners allow it. if this helps his business, then the rules will be ignored. i would not go to a place w/dogs. im sure the lakeside businesses pay off inspectors. so many places cater to elderly expats w/animals.



http://es.scribd.com/doc/28880108/Norma-Sanitaria-Para-El-Funcionamiento-de-Restaurantes-y-Afines#scribd


Google Translation:

Keeping any animal in any área of a restaurant is expressly prohibited.


"Article 40 ° .- Pests and Animals

Establishments shall be kept free of rodents and insects. To prevent their income from collectors in boxes and boxes of networks inspection metal lids and drain traps will be placed in connection with the application of network of drains .The application of rodenticides, insecticides and disinfectants must be performed by trained upersonal using only licensed products by the Ministry of Health and public health use, taking care not to contaminate food or surfaces where the presence of any food is handled. Keeping any animal is expressly prohibited in any area of the establishment."


"Artículo 40°.- De las Plagas y Animales

Los establecimientos deben conservarse libres de roedores e insectos. Para impedirsu ingreso desde los colectores, en las cajas y buzones de inspección de las redes dedesagüe se colocarán tapas metálicas y trampas en su conexión con la red dedesagüe.La aplicación de rodenticidas, insecticidas y desinfectantes debe ser realizada porpersonal capacitado, usando solamente productos autorizados por el Ministerio deSalud y de uso en salud pública, teniendo cuidado de no contaminar los alimentos osuperficies donde se manipulan. Queda expresamente prohibida la presencia de cualquier animal en cualquier área del establecimiento."

I searched for the rule and finally found it. It took more than 1 hour.


I checked to see the heading and guess what? This is the federal law in Peru. LOL


(This post was edited by AlanMexicali on Dec 3, 2015, 6:23 AM)


Gringal

Dec 3, 2015, 7:22 AM

Post #22 of 29 (9727 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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Alan, HELP!

Before I make a total fool of myself on the other board by quoting this law, is this also the law in Mexico???
And if so, is it nation wide and applicable to Jalisco state, too?

I spent a goodly amount of time trying to find it, too, but gave up before it even came up with Peru. It kept sending me to New Mexico.


chinagringo


Dec 3, 2015, 7:34 AM

Post #23 of 29 (9722 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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And why the need for a law for a matter which should be directed by common sense and common consideration towards others?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Gringal

Dec 3, 2015, 7:39 AM

Post #24 of 29 (9721 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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What a question!
If people used common sense and consideration for others, there would be no need for any laws.
As we all know, it's "uncommon" sense.
(grin)


tonyburton


Dec 3, 2015, 8:07 AM

Post #25 of 29 (9717 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Question about the law re dogs in reataurants

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The relevant regulations for food manufacturers and preparers are listed in
NORMA Oficial Mexicana NOM-251-SSA1-2009, Prácticas de higiene para el proceso de alimentos, bebidas o suplementos alimenticios. [2008] - http://www.dof.gob.mx/...3980/salud/salud.htm
The relevant clause there is 5.10.2
No se debe permitir la presencia de animales domésticos, ni mascotas dentro de las áreas de producción o elaboración de los productos.


Restaurants appear to be covered by 1995 regulations:
NORMA OFICIAL MEXICANA NOM-093-SSA1-1994, BIENES Y SERVICIOS. PRACTICAS DE HIGIENE Y SANIDAD EN LA PREPARACION DE ALIMENTOS QUE SE OFRECEN EN ESTABLECIMIENTOS FIJOS1995 regulations cover
http://www.salud.gob.mx/unidades/cdi/nom/093ssa14.html
where the relevant clauses are:

"5.2.8 Todo lugar de almacenamiento debe estar libre de fauna nociva o mascotas, mohos o suciedad visible, se debe establecer un sistema de control preventivo efectivo así como limpiarse periódicamente y lavarse al final de la jornada."

"5.8.6 Todas las áreas del servicio deben estar libres de fauna nociva o mascotas, excepción hecha de los perros guía, contar en puertas y ventanas con protección a prueba de insectos y roedores, presentar comprobante de fumigación preventiva de los últimos 3 meses proporcionado por la empresa responsable y donde conste el número de licencia expedida por la autoridad correspondiente."

These two clauses would appear to cover ALL areas of the restaurant or establishment.
Guide dogs are permitted, but no other "pests" or pets ~ that still begs a question about "birds, tigers, etc, if housed in cages"....



(This post was edited by tonyburton on Dec 3, 2015, 8:15 AM)
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