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Antonio García E

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

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Replies to an upper-class mentality

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: For instance, I don't like people like you. Descendants of Mexican peasants who migrate to the north, mostly poor, illiterate, peasants who sometimes don't even speak spanish and still practice a mix of religion and voodoo." Estas personas nunca hubieran abandonado el país, si no hubiera existido la discriminación, racismo, y desigualdad históricos en México.Read carefully, I am not saying that I don't like this kind of people, but their descendants, who are raised in a foreign culture and distort what Mexican culture and people really are. ¿Quién eres tú para defender o definir lo que en verdad es la cultura mexicana o lo que somos los mexicanos? México es un país vasto y pluricultural en el que cabemos indígenas, mestizos, gringos, socialistas, ateos, católicos, pochos, chicanos, y hasta pseudo-criollos arrogantes y excuyentes como tú.The mixture of the subculture in the poor latino barrios in the American cities and the lack of education and the superstitions and strange beliefs of the migrant peasants generate a rare hybrid with a set of values unrecognizable to real urban Mexicans. According to you, what is a "real urban Mexican"? A rich "criollo" lawyer, politician, or businessman who is chauffeured around in an armored car, speaks perfect Spanish (as well as English and French) and who is totally disconnected from the reality of Mexico?What about the millions of "urban Mexicans" who are just honest, hard working poor people that don't care if you speak perfect Spanish, that have a mix of religious beliefs and that probably have sons, daughters, fathers, brothers, and husbands working in the US just so that their families can make ends meet?I repeat: who are you to speak as a representative of "true urban Mexicans"? The days when one class of arrogant, snobbish Mexicans could speak for everybody are over! ¿No te habías enterado?I imagine how difficult it must be for Americans or other foreigners, who marry descendants of Mexican immigrants who carry with them this upbringing. It would be very difficult for me, as a Mexican. The main problem, from my perspective, has to do with socio/economical/cultural/educational affiliation. I relate better to people who has similar values and background, regardless of national origin, than to a Mexican with a completely different upbringing and set of values. I am curious, do you personally know any Mexican-Americans? ¿Te has molestado para conocer a algunos de estos seres humanos que a fin de cuentas habitan el mismo planeta?Every human being has a certain set of social and economic characteristics. This is just part of the variety of human society. You prefer to interact with upper-middle-class Mexicans and foreigners. However, pochos and chicanos as well as poor illiterate Mexicans are people too and you would be broadening your mind as well as doing Mexico a favor by getting to know and appreciate people from different backgrounds.The "pachucos", "santitos", "Hispanics", "Hijos de Aztlan", "La Raza" and other Mexican-American by-products and Icons are foreign to me because the Mexican-Americans belong to a different Country's subculture. Mexico is made out of different regions, each with its own set of customs, traditions, values and beliefs. I was raised in a "Criollo" subculture, feeling 100% Jalisciense and Mexicano. Good for you. However, the majority of Mexicans are not "criollo" (do you mean "white"?). And would probably not identify with a word of what you are saying.I assert that the majority of gringos who come to live in Mexico are not cultural snobs, have an open mind and are willing to relate to poor and working class Mexicans. They do not have all of the delusions of superiority and psychological pathologies associated with the Mexican upper and upper-middle classes. From what I have seen. Most American expats fit-in and love ALL of Mexico with warts and all much more than the rich Mexicans who are embarrassed by many of the country's realities and rather wish they had been born in France, Germany, or Spain.¡Viva Mexico!He dicho.

Jalisciense

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #2 of 13 (2074 views)

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Replies to an upper-class mentality

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"I assert that the majority of gringos who come to live in Mexico are not cultural snobs, have an open mind and are willing to relate to poor and working class Mexicans. They do not have all of the delusions of superiority and psychological pathologies associated with the Mexican upper and upper-middle classes. From what I have seen. Most American expats fit-in and love ALL of Mexico with warts and all much more than the rich Mexicans who are embarrassed by many of the country's realities and rather wish they had been born in France, Germany, or Spain".Será que los conoces muy poco?. No, yo más bien creo que cada quien defiende a los suyos, o con los que se identifica.
"México es un país vasto y pluricultural en el que cabemos indígenas, mestizos, gringos?????, socialistas, ateos, católicos, pochos????, chicanos????, y hasta pseudo-criollos arrogantes y excuyentes como tú."Creo que andas un poco desorientado, pocho. Esos tienen su país y su propia cultura.
"I repeat: who are you to speak as a representative of "true urban Mexicans"? ".Por si no te has dado cuenta, México es un mosaico cultural y étnico. Integrado por varias regiones, culturas y tipo de personas. Yo represento verdaderamente a una región, cultura y tipo de persona auténticamente Mexicanas.
"I am curious, do you personally know any Mexican-Americans? ¿Te has molestado para conocer a algunos de estos seres humanos que a fin de cuentas habitan el mismo planeta?"Los conozco tan bien que por eso los puedo describir tal cual son. Y sé muy bien de que pata cojean.
"You prefer to interact with upper-middle-class Mexicans and foreigners".Donde digo que yo prefiero eso?. Yo tengo mis preferencias muy personales, que no son de tu incumbencia. Asi como tampoco me interesan cuales sean las tuyas.
"¡Viva Mexico! He dicho."No me hagas reir. De lengua me como un taco. Hay que estar aquí, jalando la carreta. No viviendo en el extranjero y teniendo arrebatos patrioteros y meláncolicos. Es con acciones y no con palabras como se demuestra cuanto se hace por un país. Cuando el barco se empieza a hundir, son las ratas las primeras en abandonarlo.Por eso estamos como estamos.

Soy de Tepa

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #3 of 13 (2068 views)

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Replies to an upper-class mentality

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Cuando el barco se empieza a hundir, son las ratas las primeras en abandonarlo. Que quieres decir con esto??? Que los que dejamos a nuestro pais somos ratas??? Yo deje a mi Jalisco porque no habia otra. O perdiamos nuestra casa o me venia alos EEUU para ayudar a la familia. Opte por ayudar desde aca.: Por eso estamos como estamos.Estamos como estamos porque hemos tenido un gobierno que vale madre, NO porque muchos de nosotros hemos sido forzados a dejar nuestra patria.

Wendy

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #4 of 13 (2069 views)

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'Abandoning Mexico'?

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To this discussion I am adding what I have experienced in Mexico in regards to jaliscience's last two lines:
Cuando el barco se empieza a hundir, son las ratas las primeras en abandonarlo.And Keith's comment below:: All analogies break down at some point, and this one comparing rats abandoning sinking ships to Mexicans heading north breaks down really rapidly. This analogy may not accurately describe the social realities involved in the reasons that people migrate north or south of the U.S./Mexico border but the 'feeling' that I perceive behind the words of this saying...is one that I have come across many times among people that I know in Mexico.And so...even if the feeling is not one that I myself share...or fully understand...I have found it helpful to try to 'validate' the point of view of someone who might make this kind of comment.The majority of the Mexicans that I know who have lived their entire lives in Mexico...feel a strong passion for their country..and...their Mexicaness...and so do... many that have to leave the country.So...Even if economic circumstances have dictated that they or family members need to leave the country...many leave their hearts and roots in Mexico. While others pull up 'stakes'completely, so to speak.Perhaps... among many people who feel 'disinfranchised' in their country of origin like Mexico they are many willing to 'invest' ore 'reinvent their lives in other countries like the United States. But many Mexicans that I have met... feel that they personally have 'toughed' it out at 'home'. They have expressd to me that they think people who go north...do in an emotional sense...'abandon' Mexico. That they could not 'make' it here at home.
It may be a prejudice...but it packs an emotional punch. >The sad thing for Mexico is that the best individuals from the "have-not" classes leave; the rest stay.I couldn't vouch for this.
However some of my Mexican friends have expressed to me the opposite point of view. Currently I am reading Sam Quinone's book,
"True Tales from another Mexico'. So far it seems like he is presenting a case for this point of view. However...I won't know until I read further along. Wendy

Jalisciense

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #5 of 13 (2067 views)

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Tranquilo paisano

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Yo tambien soy Alteño y tengo familiares allá. La frase iba dirigida a Antonio García por metiche en una discusión ajena (a menos que tú seas Antonio García). Tienes razón en lo que dices, es la situación económica la que impulsa a muchos migrantes a buscar alternativas de solución a su problema de un trabajo digno y bien remunerado en otro país, a costa de ser siempre acusados de usar los servicios sociales de ese país. Algo que es completamente falso porque siempre les deducen los impuestos y lo del seguro social pero todos los que son indocumentados no reciben nada a cambio porque no pueden recibirlo debido a que usan nombres o documentos falsos. Van a trabajar duro en trabajos mal pagados que no quieren hacer los trabajadores nativos y legales de allá.Además de los gobiernos priistas corruptos del pasado ( hay que mencionar y hacer notar que los actuales gobernantes panistas en Jalisco no han desmantelado en dos sexenios todo el aparato priista diseñado para hacer dinero de muchas formas. Se pagan unos sueldazos y se regalan coche y todo tipo de prestaciones exageradas y hacen sus negocios chuecos y acomodan a toda su familia en puestos del gobierno y se dan permisos para operar negocios que les dejan más de doscientos mil pesos mensuales en base al puesto que tienen. No van a desmantelar el sistema porque ahora ellos lo están usando para enriquecerse con el dinero de los ciudadanos. No es cuestión de partidos, es cuestión de gentes. Como dijo Obregón: No hay General que aguante un cañonazo de cincuenta mil pesos.) Cambiar de partido no es todo, aunque hay que echar afuera al a todos niveles, hay que cambiar de mentalidad y actuar inteligente y honestamente. Y castigar con mano dura a los que hagan lo mismo que hacían los priistas.Tambien el gobierno panista de Fox es un servidor de los intereses del extranjero, un ejemplo: Todas las nuevas plantas de generación de energía eléctrica que está construyendo el gobierno de Fox en la parte norte del país no son para beneficiar a los mexicanos sino para venderles energía barata a los EUA, principalmente a California, igual que se construyó el gasoducto para venderle el gas natural al estado de Texas más barato de lo que se vende en México. P.D. No, el PRD tampoco es la solución, actualmente de todos los partidos en México no se hace uno que valga la pena.

keith

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #6 of 13 (2068 views)

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interesting exchange you guys are having

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I'll comment on jaliscience's last two lines: Cuando el barco se empieza a hundir, son las ratas las primeras en abandonarlo.Por eso estamos como estamos.All analogies break down at some point, and this one comparing rats abandoning sinking ships to Mexicans heading north breaks down really rapidly. There are all kinds of exceptions, but what I see mostly in the area where I spend most of my time in Mexico is that the ones who head north are the ones with drive, imagination, desire, and a good work ethic who want to work hard and achieve something like prosperity. The reasons why they go north rather than stay where they happen to have been born are obvious: a stratified society, corruption . . . perhaps you can add to this list. The sad thing for Mexico is that the best individuals from the "have-not" classes leave; the rest stay.

visitor

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #7 of 13 (2068 views)

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'Abandoning Mexico'?

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I have heard the term, I think it was malinchism, used as an insult directed against those who work in the States. Malinche was the beautiful slave given as a gift to Cortes, and worked against her own people. And, some government officials at times don't treat returning Mexicans very well.Everyone has their own view, I guess. I tend to view some of this as jealousy. I worked in a big factory, and not many women in production had high paying tech jobs. When a woman would get books and ask techs for help on studying for the tests, it was other women in low-paying jobs, not most men, who harassed her for trying to get ahead.

Deanna

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #8 of 13 (2069 views)

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The Women Who Stay

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You forgot to mention that some of those left behind are the wives and children of those ambitious men. Sometimes they are able to come up later, Sometimes that is never the intention and the men return, and sometimes the men just abandon their families- but this happens within Mexico (and within the USA) anyway. My point is that many of the people left behind are equally ambitious and hardworking.
: I'll comment on jaliscience's last two lines: Cuando el barco se empieza a hundir, son las ratas las primeras en abandonarlo.: Por eso estamos como estamos.: All analogies break down at some point, and this one comparing rats abandoning sinking ships to Mexicans heading north breaks down really rapidly. There are all kinds of exceptions, but what I see mostly in the area where I spend most of my time in Mexico is that the ones who head north are the ones with drive, imagination, desire, and a good work ethic who want to work hard and achieve something like prosperity. The reasons why they go north rather than stay where they happen to have been born are obvious: a stratified society, corruption . . . perhaps you can add to this list. The sad thing for Mexico is that the best individuals from the "have-not" classes leave; the rest stay.

visitor

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #9 of 13 (2065 views)

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The Women Who Stay

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>>:The sad thing for Mexico is that the best individuals from the "have-not" classes leave; the rest stay.Deanna, did you say you were a high school English teacher, perhaps?? I responded to something that was quoted at the end of your posting, as you can see. If you have a set of Net rules that make it clear this was wrong, please post them. But, I don't think you do. This sort of nit-picking on microscopic trivia is so typically Mexconnect.

visitor

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #10 of 13 (2066 views)

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U.S. immigrants...

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Though I can say nothing on what seems to be merely an exchange of insults, because it is very hard to understand that mess of punctuation and grammar, I do have considerable knowledge of immigrants in the U.S. Most of my adult life, which is rapidly approaching half a century, has been spent -- by choice -- in the company of immigrants from all over the world.I have noticed that, measured collectively, immigrants in the U.S. are much more ambitious, much more stimulating to be around, than non-immigrants. (No, I do not believe that all Mexicans are more ambitious and more stimulating to be around than U.S. natives, and a lot of immigrants I know are from other countries.) I have said for years that I think it takes a very special person to leave his/her home to go to another country. And, that's true of immigrants to the U.S. and perhaps expats in Mexico as well, though that I cannot personally speak to.I can also say in Mexico, I associate with people from the upper-middle class to the very poorest, and frankly, find some in each group to love, and some to dislike very much. There seems, for example, to be no correlation between social class and the tendency to steal from others, among the people I know.

Deanna

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #11 of 13 (2065 views)

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misplaced followup

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You posted in response to my message but you seem to be referring to some other post...please be careful. 
: Though I can say nothing on what seems to be merely an exchange of insults, because it is very hard to understand that mess of punctuation and grammar, I do have considerable knowledge of immigrants in the U.S. Most of my adult life, which is rapidly approaching half a century, has been spent -- by choice -- in the company of immigrants from all over the world.: I have noticed that, measured collectively, immigrants in the U.S. are much more ambitious, much more stimulating to be around, than non-immigrants. (No, I do not believe that all Mexicans are more ambitious and more stimulating to be around than U.S. natives, and a lot of immigrants I know are from other countries.) I have said for years that I think it takes a very special person to leave his/her home to go to another country. And, that's true of immigrants to the U.S. and perhaps expats in Mexico as well, though that I cannot personally speak to.: I can also say in Mexico, I associate with people from the upper-middle class to the very poorest, and frankly, find some in each group to love, and some to dislike very much. There seems, for example, to be no correlation between social class and the tendency to steal from others, among the people I know.

Another visitor

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #12 of 13 (2067 views)

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Ignorance galore!!

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Though I can say nothing on what seems to be merely an exchange of insults, because it is very hard to understand that mess of punctuation and grammar,
For your information: punctuation and grammar are correct. What is it that you call a mess?.

visitor

Nov 30, 1919, 12:00 AM

Post #13 of 13 (2067 views)

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Ignorance galore!!

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: For your information: punctuation and grammar are correct. What is it that you call a mess?.The original posting present in the thread had a lot of stuff that seemed to be quotes from another posting that was not present, followed by a response, but the groups were not always marked as quotes or not quotes. if that was not the case, the entire posting was written by the guy in BEAUTIFUL MIND.