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Gringal

Mar 25, 2015, 11:20 AM

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REAL ESTATE TAXES

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Does anyone know with authority where our annual real estate taxes go, and the criteria for distributing them to the various towns?



mcm

Mar 25, 2015, 11:39 AM

Post #2 of 15 (11554 views)

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Re: [Gringal] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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Do you mean property tax (Predial)? Or taxes on sale of property (another issue altogether). Where do you live? The law on collection and distribution of predial (property tax) differs from state to state. If you want an authoritative view, do a search on ''ley de impuesto predial plus the name of your state and/or municipio''.


Gringal

Mar 25, 2015, 1:37 PM

Post #3 of 15 (11529 views)

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Re: [mcm] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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"annual real estate taxes". (Predial.)
Ajijic, Jalisco.


Septiembre


Mar 25, 2015, 2:11 PM

Post #4 of 15 (11521 views)

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Re: [mcm] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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Finally, a really helpful suggestion, thanks mcm.

I found a current fiscal or bond rating report of some sort from an outfit called "Verum:

http://verum.mx/resources/pdfs/ComPrensa_0067.pdf

Here's part of that report translated by Google:


Quote
Monterrey, Nuevo León (February 20, 2015): Verum affirmed the long-term rating of 'BBB- / M' with perspective 'Stable' the town of Chapala, Jalisco. The rating considers the income structure Township characterized by a high proportion of own income is above the national average, economic and social welfare of its population at good levels indicators and positive financial results in recent years derived from administrative efforts to reduce current spending and increase revenue. Moreover, the rating considers its high debt levels, and the administration plans to increase them during 2015 and strong investment needs that will require large amounts of investment in the coming years. The structure of income from Chapala is characterized by having a high proportion of own income. At the end of 2013, the ratio of own revenues to total revenues stood at 54.3% and this generally has remained close to 40% over the past five years. The main items of own income represents what the property tax and property transfer tax (ISABI). They show stability through the years and have generally represented about 90% of the own revenues (property ISABI 50% and 35%). In the areas of product and duties are higher volatility observed in the analysis period. The municipality had total revenue of $ 192.1 million, which representing a growth of 5.0% over the previous year, mainly driven by 40.3% increase in the area of property tax.


Not only does this suggest that Chapala retains the property tax income and that has gone up greatly, it suggests that the money flow is INTO and not out of Chapala from sources which I'll assume are the state and feds. It also speaks to the strength of the Chapala revenue base which is hardly surprising given the hight property values of many parts of the municipality and the robust tourist and expat based businesses here.

I found this by Googling what mcm suggested and adding Chapala Jalisco.

From another report:

http://www.cronica.com.mx/notas/2015/875853.html

Again, a translation:


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PREDIAL. The House approved the tables valuation list of 113 municipalities in 2015, where Chapala recorded the highest increase with 37 percent; Guadalajara eight percent; Tlajomulco nine percent and Zapopan not have increased. In the municipality of Zapotiltic, no increase in property tax and water. An increase of 22 percent and in Cranbrook 11 percent, because their rates were outdated approved in Cuautitlán.


Hopefully this thread can continue in this vein. Spencer responded to my request and said that he'd research the question and get back to me. I will post anything I can get from him and one other credible source providing this thread is kept free of the flaming that occurred on my thread.

Thanks Gringal for making a second attempt to have an intelligent discussion of this topic.


Gringal

Mar 25, 2015, 2:19 PM

Post #5 of 15 (11516 views)

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Re: [Septiembre] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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You're welcome. I'm sure many people would like to have this information and there is no reason we can't have a flame free discussion.

In reading the foregoing posts, I noted that the Chapala tax increase was far greater than in most other places, and the question remains: why? It's not that it's a huge peso amount, but in comparison with other places, it is a large increase on a yearly basis.
Those in lower income brackets may have been hard hit.

I think that what we want to know is the reason for the increase and how it is allocated.


(This post was edited by Gringal on Mar 25, 2015, 2:26 PM)


Aaron+

Mar 25, 2015, 4:25 PM

Post #6 of 15 (11468 views)

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Re: [Gringal] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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General rule in Mexico: The annual real estate taxes (predial) are assessed and collected by, and fund, each inidividual municipalidad. In addition, each state receives funds from the Federation (that is, the federal Mexican government) that vary year by year and are distributed between each state and its municipalidades according to legislation local to each state.

Some local governments (municipalidades) even have their own website and offer residents the ability to pay online. In the state of Yucatan, not only do most local governments not have a web page, but a recently reported study finds 30% of them without telephone service! Typically, one can also pay at bank branches, though most municipalities have no resident bank branch. Larger cities often have other, multiple payment sites and methods. Often discounts are offered to those paying early in the calendar year.

Sometimes it is so unclear to folks as to which municipality their property belongs that, if they pay any tax, they go to the alcaldia (city hall) where they think they should go, find that treasurer happy to tell them how much they owe (!) and collect their predial! Recently, again in Yucatán, the coastal municipality of Dzemul discovered that some local property owners were paying predial to Progreso (far to the west), several municipalities away.


Aaron+

Mar 25, 2015, 4:28 PM

Post #7 of 15 (11466 views)

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Re: [Gringal] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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"In reading the foregoing posts, I noted that the Chapala tax increase was far greater than in most other places, and the question remains: why?"

The tax rate on assessed properties can vary depending on the level of services provided in any given municipality (or how much is drained off into private pockets?).


Septiembre


Mar 26, 2015, 7:47 AM

Post #8 of 15 (11410 views)

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Re: [Aaron+] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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Whoops I sent this to Aaron by private reply first time.

Your post confirms that the several here who claim the state takes the property tax are incorrect and in fact the property tax is retained by Chapala and additional funds come from the Federal level. That seems to agree with the sources I found.

I am told by a credible source that Ajijic sends about 35 million pesos to Chapala in the form of taxes. The source noted that the financial value of the services received by Ajijic don't even add up to 50 percent of this amount and confirmed my contention that the level of services have been cut drastically by the current Chapala administration at the same time property taxes have gone up greatly as also confirmed by the sources I cited.

I think there is your answer, Gringal, along with confirmation that Chapala gets and keeps the property taxes. So there is no "formula" for distributing them. I don't know if there's a formula for determining how much the state/Feds add to the budget. In Chapala's case it seems to be about 46 percent if I read the source correctly.


(This post was edited by Septiembre on Mar 26, 2015, 8:17 AM)


drope

Mar 26, 2015, 9:03 AM

Post #9 of 15 (11391 views)

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Re: [Septiembre] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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In Reply To
Whoops I sent this to Aaron by private reply first time.

Your post confirms that the several here who claim the state takes the property tax are incorrect and in fact the property tax is retained by Chapala and additional funds come from the Federal level. That seems to agree with the sources I found.

I am told by a credible source that Ajijic sends about 35 million pesos to Chapala in the form of taxes. The source noted that the financial value of the services received by Ajijic don't even add up to 50 percent of this amount and confirmed my contention that the level of services have been cut drastically by the current Chapala administration at the same time property taxes have gone up greatly as also confirmed by the sources I cited.

I think there is your answer, Gringal, along with confirmation that Chapala gets and keeps the property taxes. So there is no "formula" for distributing them. I don't know if there's a formula for determining how much the state/Feds add to the budget. In Chapala's case it seems to be about 46 percent if I read the source correctly.

who is the source and did they also say how much chapala and the rest of the county contribute to general revenues. by the way not everyone's property tax in the county was raised by 38% as some have suggested.
ours went up 21.4% from last year to a staggering 1400 mp.
i have many elected political friends NOB and when i told them what we paid and the services we got they couldn't figure out how it was possible to provide those services on such lowly property taxes.
ask your source if a municipality needs to get permission from the state to fiddle with property taxes,please.


Septiembre


Mar 26, 2015, 9:17 AM

Post #10 of 15 (11386 views)

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Re: [drope] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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Sorry, I can't identify that source but I can tell you for certain that they are in a position to know the details of what is collected versus what is spent here.

The entire cost structure NOB is different than here and there is very little equivalency. For example, the cost of municipal labor, at least the people who actually do the work, is a small fraction of what it costs up there.

What is true is that for far less in taxes just a few years ago, the streets were kept repaired and swept. That is no longer happening.


AlanMexicali


Mar 26, 2015, 9:20 AM

Post #11 of 15 (11385 views)

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Re: [drope] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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In Reply To

In Reply To
Whoops I sent this to Aaron by private reply first time.

Your post confirms that the several here who claim the state takes the property tax are incorrect and in fact the property tax is retained by Chapala and additional funds come from the Federal level. That seems to agree with the sources I found.

I am told by a credible source that Ajijic sends about 35 million pesos to Chapala in the form of taxes. The source noted that the financial value of the services received by Ajijic don't even add up to 50 percent of this amount and confirmed my contention that the level of services have been cut drastically by the current Chapala administration at the same time property taxes have gone up greatly as also confirmed by the sources I cited.

I think there is your answer, Gringal, along with confirmation that Chapala gets and keeps the property taxes. So there is no "formula" for distributing them. I don't know if there's a formula for determining how much the state/Feds add to the budget. In Chapala's case it seems to be about 46 percent if I read the source correctly.

who is the source and did they also say how much chapala and the rest of the county contribute to general revenues. by the way not everyone's property tax in the county was raised by 38% as some have suggested.
ours went up 21.4% from last year to a staggering 1400 mp.
i have many elected political friends NOB and when i told them what we paid and the services we got they couldn't figure out how it was possible to provide those services on such lowly property taxes.
ask your source if a municipality needs to get permission from the state to fiddle with property taxes,please.



The services provided by property taxes is minimal compared to NOB. It is a whole different tax system with no comparision.

No schools, policing, many municipal projects, or fire departments rely on property taxes in general. They are funded through federal and state taxes and federal tax sharing like IVA, SAT and Pemex revenue in a complicated tax system. Federal and state loans are usually the source of many projects that the municipality pays off with money that they recieve from the tax sharing system.


(This post was edited by AlanMexicali on Mar 26, 2015, 10:56 AM)


drope

Mar 26, 2015, 9:58 AM

Post #12 of 15 (11375 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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i told my NOB politicians exactly what we paid in property taxes and water bills and what services we "actually" got and they were amazed about those facts and nothing else. for what we pay,i am quite pleased with the services provided. septiember,since you won't provide your source, could you ask them the rest of the question i asked,please. and if they are in an official position to know why can't they come forward?


Septiembre


Mar 26, 2015, 11:53 AM

Post #13 of 15 (11354 views)

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Re: [drope] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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Already answered. Aaron and Alan both spelled out for you the non equivalency. Sorry but I cannot disclose my source about the amount of money that goes from Ajijic. It could probably be confirmed with a trip to Chapala. Looking at the figures, it seems well within the ball park to me.

However, right after I wrote this, Harry Bublin posted the following on Chapala dot com:

NOTE: This is a full and direct quote, not mine!


Quote
As I was told (by a government official):
Ajijic property taxes - 10+ million pesos
Ajijic water bills - 10+ million pesos
Ajijic business licences - 10+ million pesos
Hotel taxes - ?
Returned to the village cut in employees, no subs when employees are out
potholes only filled when the papers are barraged with articles
street lights only replaced if residents pay for parts.
No police patrols when malecon, park and plaza inundated with tapatios
state/federal grant projects only partially completed
plaza left unfinished by same officials for over two years
no tools, materials or repairs at the park and panteon

I'm sure there is plenty I left out, but,
Line up and pay your taxes early to show your appreciation.
I'm surprised the taxes only went up 30%. With such sheep they could have gotten away with a couple of hundred percent.


We set out to answer Gringal's and my question and we did. Thanks to everyone who helped out.


(This post was edited by Septiembre on Mar 26, 2015, 11:58 AM)


drope

Mar 27, 2015, 11:51 AM

Post #14 of 15 (11254 views)

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Re: [drope] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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aaron and alan have spelled out nothing in relation to your ajijic and the county of chapala whose seat of government is the town of chapala. gringal's nor my questions have been answered from what i have read here.
i see no credible source for any information if we are to take your own criteria that you have set as to what is creditable. again my property tax went up 21.4% in chapala and that is fact but i am not going to post my documents to confirm same. who is harryb? is he a government official or politician?


drope

Mar 30, 2015, 8:16 AM

Post #15 of 15 (11051 views)

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Re: [drope] REAL ESTATE TAXES

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gringal,a person named alex took the trouble,on another board, to find out that the total chapala budget is 200,000,000 and ajijic's contributtion was 30,000,000 which is 15% and includes water charge and business tax not just predial. seems to me that not enough predial is coming out of ajijic then. for example my water bill was much higher than my predial in a 2 bedroom/bath house with 2 people.
 
 
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