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Rolly


Dec 30, 2013, 6:06 PM

Post #1 of 68 (10399 views)

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Are drugs really the root problem?

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My friend, who posts here as Richmx2, made an interesting post on my Facebook page.

These gangsters [the drug gangs] are just unregulated capitalist... pure "libertarians"... and murder is simply a business tool to them. The product isn't the problem, the business model is.

Rolly Pirate



joaquinx


Dec 30, 2013, 7:10 PM

Post #2 of 68 (10362 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Are drugs really the root problem?

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These gangsters [the drug gangs] are just unregulated capitalist... pure "libertarians"... and murder is simply a business tool to them. The product isn't the problem, the business model is.


They do more than drugs. They are similar to the old organized crime gangs in the US. They'll sell the illegal products to those who want it. If they don't buy, they'll take something else.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.


Intercasa

Dec 30, 2013, 9:06 PM

Post #3 of 68 (10341 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Drugs are not the problem, just a means of making money for those who do not value education, have no values and who want the easy road to wealth without working for it. If drugs were decriminalized these people would just switch to extortion, kidnapping and robbery, at least with the drug trade collateral damage is less than if they targeted the populace at large.
Mexican licensed attorney (Cédula #7928026) and official court translator (Perito Traductor). Mx 376-765-7553, USA 805-683-4848


Bennie García

Dec 31, 2013, 5:55 AM

Post #4 of 68 (10308 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Are drugs really the root problem?

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For those that argue that legalization will only make organized crime increase their other illicit businesses can you please explain how maintaining prohibition has diminished the crime rates? The so-called drug war has been going on for over 40 years and its consequences have never been as bad as they are today. The cartels did not take over whole areas of the country by using the proceeds from extortion or other crimes. It is a direct result of drug prohibition. The other crimes don't even come close to equaling the profitability of drugs, the money which funds corruption of the justice and political systems and procuring the weapons used in maintaing control.


Intercasa

Dec 31, 2013, 7:17 AM

Post #5 of 68 (10296 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Are drugs really the root problem?

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So maybe I do not have the answer but do you have the answer to the rhetorical question:

What will all the people in criminal organizations do who have become accustomed to a lifestyle of easy money and living well due to drug sales who have little to no formal education? What will they do for work if their main source of income goes away?
Mexican licensed attorney (Cédula #7928026) and official court translator (Perito Traductor). Mx 376-765-7553, USA 805-683-4848


stevebrtx

Dec 31, 2013, 8:26 AM

Post #6 of 68 (10276 views)

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Re: [Intercasa] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Spencer is close, I'll use other words and tell you it's simply a loss of the moral fabric of a society. When you lose the moral imperative of personal responsibility and cease to value the moral structure that societies are built on, then you have exactly what you have today, and NOB. If you trace any problem today, you will find a breakdown of morals at some level and I don't care if it's in the highest levels of governments to the lowest level crack houses. And, before anyone jumps on this as a religious issue, it most definitely is NOT. I can show you people who are absolute atheists and yet hold themselves to the highest of moral standards.


Aaron+

Dec 31, 2013, 8:26 AM

Post #7 of 68 (10275 views)

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Re: [Intercasa] Are drugs really the root problem?

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What will all the people in criminal organizations do who have become accustomed to a lifestyle of easy money and living well due to drug sales who have little to no formal education? What will they do for work if their main source of income goes away?

Run for political office or become a CNTE teacher in Oaxaca.


Bennie García

Dec 31, 2013, 8:42 AM

Post #8 of 68 (10269 views)

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Re: [Intercasa] Are drugs really the root problem?

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So maybe I do not have the answer but do you have the answer to the rhetorical question:

What will all the people in criminal organizations do who have become accustomed to a lifestyle of easy money and living well due to drug sales who have little to no formal education? What will they do for work if their main source of income goes away?


Of course they will react to the loss of revenue but IMO that becomes an easier problem to deal with. There is absolutely no way that the other sources of crime can replicate the revenue drugs create. Without that enormous revenue there power will begin to wane until eventually the cartels cease to exist as they do today. The guys at the top that control the money now will probably move into lucrative legit busineses and live long and healthy lives. The rest will have to fend for themselves without the financial backing of the capos.

Before the cartels became involved, kidnapping was a major crime problem. But some big name gangs were dismantled, like the infamous mocheorejas, and others. Resources wasted now on an unwinnable drug war will be better allocated towards combating other crimes.


Intercasa

Dec 31, 2013, 8:54 AM

Post #9 of 68 (10263 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Are drugs really the root problem?

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I will add that the only way for decriminalization to not have negative effects on society would be at the same time to strengthen and fortify the prosecution of crimes, with the swiftness and celerity of punishment to be a clear deterrent to those who might want to supplement their lost drug income.
Mexican licensed attorney (Cédula #7928026) and official court translator (Perito Traductor). Mx 376-765-7553, USA 805-683-4848


Bennie García

Dec 31, 2013, 10:21 AM

Post #10 of 68 (10243 views)

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Re: [Intercasa] Are drugs really the root problem?

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I will add that the only way for decriminalization to not have negative effects on society would be at the same time to strengthen and fortify the prosecution of crimes, with the swiftness and celerity of punishment to be a clear deterrent to those who might want to supplement their lost drug income.


What about the negative affects of prohibition? IMO and that of many others, they are greater than legalization. The jails cannot hold all of the people incarcerated for drug related crimes. The cost alone of housing the huge prison population is a negative. The disintegration of families because someone was thrown in prison for drug possession. How many on this board have never used pot or cocaine? Few, undoubtedly. For the others, are they criminals that should pay a heavy price for drug use? Would you be in your position today if you had been caught smoking a reefer 10 years ago?


Bennie García

Dec 31, 2013, 10:43 AM

Post #11 of 68 (10234 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Spencer is close, I'll use other words and tell you it's simply a loss of the moral fabric of a society. When you lose the moral imperative of personal responsibility and cease to value the moral structure that societies are built on, then you have exactly what you have today, and NOB. If you trace any problem today, you will find a breakdown of morals at some level and I don't care if it's in the highest levels of governments to the lowest level crack houses. And, before anyone jumps on this as a religious issue, it most definitely is NOT. I can show you people who are absolute atheists and yet hold themselves to the highest of moral standards.


When did this breakdown begin? With the civil rights movement? With young people resisting immoral wars such as Vietnam? When minorities demanded equal rights? Whose morals are you speaking of? The morals of the 19th century? The early 20th century?


Gringal

Dec 31, 2013, 11:25 AM

Post #12 of 68 (10226 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Are drugs really the root problem?

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In George Washington's era, war profiteers sold defective boots to the Continental army. Little kids were taught pick pocketing skills in Dickens era. Entire nations practiced ritual torture.........and still do. And so on, back to the days our ancient ancestors lived in caves.

I don't think the world is less moral than it used to be, but reportage is instantaneous and everyone hears far more than they did before radio, television and the internet shrank the world into a global village our great grandparents wouldn't recognize.

In a world where a dishonest but well paying job is easier to find, the criminal types will simply turn to other criminal acts to maintain their "lifestyle" if drugs are decriminalized. People have always wanted to alter their perception of reality with any number of substances, some of which are legal; some not. A twelve pack of beer will do the job.
What's the difference?


Intercasa

Dec 31, 2013, 12:27 PM

Post #13 of 68 (10217 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Well... violent video games children play, desensitization of horrific events, families where the parent expects another (babysitter or teachers) to teach their child right from wrong and families where the parents know or should know their kids are up to no good but remain silent, single parents who keep popping out kids without regard to being able to educate and feed them and make sure they have a proper life. Neighbors do not know their neighbors anymore, the communities do not get together as regularly, more people are strangers while living and working right next to each other, people being enslaved by addictions to substances or slaves to debt, for necessities of life or many times due to needless commercialism.
Mexican licensed attorney (Cédula #7928026) and official court translator (Perito Traductor). Mx 376-765-7553, USA 805-683-4848


stevebrtx

Dec 31, 2013, 1:13 PM

Post #14 of 68 (10202 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Bennie, don't play dumb, you know exactly what I mean. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should and trying to attach it any of your pet dislikes is not the issue. I would bet that if you and I met and didn't know each other we'd act like the civilized members of society we are and most likely agree on most things that are a problem in today's societies - which simply equate to a loss of moral standards.

If someone gives you too much change at a store register, what do you do? - return it or walk away. If you find a lost billfold, do you empty it and throw the rest away? - I doubt it. Just basic moral values that "glue" together a society. You obviously don't behead people or kidnap and murder - why? - well, because you have a basic set of morals you live by and you've mentioned over the years helping family and others - well, that's morals. But, when those values are discarded for whatever reason then you have exactly what we all live in today, a society which can't tell right from wrong. '

JC Watts once said "Character is doing the right thing when noboy's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught".


Bennie García

Dec 31, 2013, 2:05 PM

Post #15 of 68 (10194 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Are drugs really the root problem?

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So tell us then, Steve. When was the turning point? At what point in time did this moral decay begin?

When it comes to drug use, if you consider smoking pot immoral behavior then just remember it wasn't until around the first part of the 20th century that it had all of a sudden became bad for you. It was used without stigma for centuries prior to a bunch of uptight, racist, white men that had the political ability to make it illegal decided to crimialize it. . It was used solely as a tool to screw minorities. That is what I consider immoral.


(This post was edited by Bennie García on Dec 31, 2013, 2:08 PM)


YucaLandia


Dec 31, 2013, 2:09 PM

Post #16 of 68 (10190 views)

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Re: [Intercasa] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Things do seem different now, especially at the roots of the cultures.

American culture and American beliefs and values have become dominant worldwide over the past 50 years. Hollywood, Madison Avenue marketing, US military power, and TV have made it happen. Personal values have changed.

What civilized culture on the planet has acted like the USA - with Mexico following in their wake? If the values of modern society are no different from the past, then why has the USA had 27 school shootings in just a single year since Newtown?

Many people's expectations have changed over the past 50 years. Growing up in a farming community, pretty much every family we knew had guns, stored out for anyone to grab, for decades. As kids we had easy access to guns, but we saw things differently. The societal equation has definitely changed, especially since the Vietnam War, US Presidents making many wars with no Congressional approval, and since the Greed is Good decade of the 1980's, and rampant materialism of the 2000's. In 10,000's of communities across America, we never considered using those guns as a solution to our problems. When we were disciplined by coaches or teachers, we simply did not see picking up a gun as a way to get what we want. Hollywood, Madison Avenue, the White House & Pentagon, and TV have sold many people in Mexico and the USA the false ideology that guns and violence (and a sense of entitlement) are legitimate routes to success and legitimate solutions to our problems.

Hollywood's and Washington's values that we are entitled to have it all ~ now ~ , without sacrifice or sustained effort, have sold some elements of US and Mexican society on the ideas of easy wealth and solving problems through violence.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Dec 31, 2013, 2:54 PM)


TedZar

Dec 31, 2013, 2:24 PM

Post #17 of 68 (10177 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Well said, Steve.


stevebrtx

Dec 31, 2013, 3:09 PM

Post #18 of 68 (10162 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Bennie, you make the mistake of trying to "fix" a date in time, or a single event that caused the moral decay, that would be simple, our human history is not - and, of course it was none of these (although much of today started in the 60's), but it's a constant trickle of events that subtly lead us down the path. Is it moral to cheat on your taxes? - of course not, but then the gov is screwing us, so why not get even? - wrong.

You want one monumental event to suddenly identify this problem - sorry there is not. Obviously immorality, or the decay of a societies moral values is subtle, covering years of decline. If it happened in a day, it wouldn't be tolerated, people would notice and push back. Look at WWII and the death camps, they began subtly, then by the time people wanted to reject and push back it was too late, they feared for their own lives. Or, by comparison, look at the current "Duck" flap - people had enough and pushed back, so happening in real time people are capable of pushing back, subtly, it's like a frog in a pot of water slowly being heated, he never realizes he is "frog legs" until it's too late to jump.

Of course it's immoral to screw minorities, but look around you, who is on the other end of that today? Bennie, I know you, you have a bone to pick and that's ok, but don't let it get in the way of the much much larger picture of society going wrong. You and I don't matter much, but the society we leave for our progeny is critical, if we don't try to correct this basic of all basic traits, our moral values, then they have no choice and no chance.


Bennie García

Dec 31, 2013, 3:22 PM

Post #19 of 68 (10160 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Of course it's immoral to screw minorities, but look around you, who is on the other end of that today?


Do tell, amigo.


Gringal

Dec 31, 2013, 3:33 PM

Post #20 of 68 (10153 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Are drugs really the root problem?

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I'll stand on the premise that things haven't changed in terms of morality and/or justice permeating society. We just hear about it more quickly.
We are the Roman Empire, redux. Those who had, had slaves, violent games in the arena where starving lions were set on unpopular religious groups and the only rule was to make sure there was bread and circuses. Since we are getting parsimonious about doling out the bread, that leaves the circuses. Video games, TV and the rest.
What is the basic difference between the old slavery and economic slavery? Not much.

Students of history see the flies in the pepper, everywhere, and for all time. Many years ago, growing up in a large city, I saw corruption, greed and general "it's only wrong if you get caught" thinking everywhere. It didn't happen recently.

If you want to see more recent examples of warped standards in a society, revisit Victorian England's novels about the "upper classes", touching on the attitudes toward those working in the mines for their brief lifetimes. Fast-backward to Genghis Khan and a few of his cohorts. It didn't start with the Nazi death camps.

Rural societies have always been different: people were dependent upon one another for survival when trouble hit. I believe that was what created the closeness among neighbors and the higher standard of honesty. There were always the exceptions.


Bennie García

Dec 31, 2013, 3:47 PM

Post #21 of 68 (10149 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Are drugs really the root problem?

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Well said, gringal.


YucaLandia


Dec 31, 2013, 5:03 PM

Post #22 of 68 (10134 views)

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Re: [Gringal] things haven't changed in terms of morality and/or justice permeating society

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gringal's reminders about Rome bring the points home: The last 2 centuries of Roman rule were excellent examples of the risks of mixing strong senses of entitlement with violence as corrupting ways to live.

Romans - like Americans - expected cheap or free food - (based on conquest, taxing others, and sucking the agricultural riches out of Egypt and North Africa) provided with doses of violent entertainment and conquest. This mix definitely leads (both then and now) to a corrupt and violent society that relied on military power and violence to perpetuate the cycles.

The "it's only a problem if you get caught" theme certainly blossomed under Nixon and Clinton. That was followed up by raiding the Treasury (another debauched Roman theme) with prolonged deficit spending to keep the party rolling - which ballooned under both Reagan and Bush the Second administrations.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


stevebrtx

Jan 1, 2014, 1:03 PM

Post #23 of 68 (10025 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] things haven't changed in terms of morality and/or justice permeating society

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Gringal takes the "intellectual book approach" which is what I would expect. It's a nice clean "clinical" way of looking at the things from a high level, reading the pontifications of those actually immersed in the real life of things and doesn't require getting your feet "wet" in the reality of what's happening. It's nice to read about the Roman Empire and how they declined and say tisk tisk, but not us - wrong, they're a perfect example and even though historical evidence documents it - do we really "get it"? - doubtful, they don't teach history in schools any more.

All the intellectuals love to "float above" the reality of what people are and what they are doing and pontificate and occasionally dip a toe in the reality of the world - it don't work like that, you get down in it, you live it, you get it, you get it fixed, or you get over it - end of subject.

Things very definitely HAVE changed in terms of morality, certainly NOB. In the 30's men stood in line at soup kitchens to get a warm meal and something for their families, they sold apples for 5 cents - just for a moment, try to imagine any one of our generation, or the younger of the "got it made fat generation" doing that today. In the 30's they didn't rob banks, they didn't sell drugs, they didn't do any of those things - and yes, Bennie, here's a bone for you, they did smuggle hooch - i.e., the Kennedy's etc and there was Bonnie & Clyde.

Probably most of you can tell stories about our parents from the great depression age surviving, I taped some before my Mother passed on when she was in her 80's+ and they had nothing, absolutely nothing and yet would no more have imagined stealing from others, who had nothing - than anything. Morality is generational. It's taught by and illustrated by, the elder generation, why and how we got so far off track in the 60's is a whole other discussion as much as is the reason Bennie is so bitter about the Viet Nam war, and the US in general etc.

So, don't doubt for a minute that virtually everything today we consider a "problem" begins with a lack of morality. You can't legislate it, the idiots in DC have tried - you can't, the atheists have eliminated it from the schools and seems modern parents (who haven't learned it) can't or don't teach it to their kids, so take a guess at how soon this will be corrected.



Bennie García

Jan 1, 2014, 2:24 PM

Post #24 of 68 (10013 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] things haven't changed in terms of morality and/or justice permeating society

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I asked my mother a few years ago if she longed for "the good old days" and she replied, "these are the good old days". So Steve, you have your opinion, others have theirs.

Smoking pot was never even looked at askance until the immoral white men that run the USA decided to demonnize it solely to castigate people they considered inferior. It wasn't considered an immoral act, it wasn't utilized solely by degenerates and most everything that clouds a persons opinion on the subject these days can be traced back to lies and fabrications. Falsehoods in their entirety.

Now that people are beginning to accept the truth about pot, the fabricated stigma is finally starting to dissapate, trying to blame its use and legalization on a breakdown in morality is laughable. Unfortunately, some people need their demons, always need a boogie man to justify their fears. And those are the ones trying to make others live under their warped definition of morality.

Its ironic that the very same people who whine the loudest about government intruding in people's lives are the same ones encouraging the government to prolong marijuana prohibition or oppose same sex marriage etc.


Rolly


Jan 1, 2014, 2:37 PM

Post #25 of 68 (10003 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] things haven't changed in terms of morality and/or justice permeating society

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It"s ironic that the very same people who whine the loudest about government intruding in people's lives are the same ones encouraging the government to prolong marijuana prohibition or oppose same sex marriage etc.
And tell women what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. And order doctors to perform procedures that are unnecessary and unwanted.

Rolly Pirate


(This post was edited by Rolly on Jan 1, 2014, 2:38 PM)
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