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esperanza

Oct 14, 2013, 5:54 PM

Post #26 of 79 (2926 views)

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Re: [Ric Hoffman] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Ric, your 2004 DOF is hopelessly out of date. Nine years old? Please.

When an in-house SRE lawyer questioned the director of the national (not state) Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores, the answer was no. And the reason was as stated.

You continue to be wrong. Why don't you just give it up? We are dealing with personal, official experience here, not websites and outside opinion.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









Ric Hoffman


Oct 14, 2013, 6:31 PM

Post #27 of 79 (2906 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Ric, your 2004 DOF is hopelessly out of date. Nine years old? Please.

When an in-house SRE lawyer questioned the director of the national (not state) Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores, the answer was no. And the reason was as stated.

You continue to be wrong. Why don't you just give it up? We are dealing with personal, official experience here, not websites and outside opinion.

Go back and read my post Cristina. How do I continue to be wrong simply by applying the law? I am not offering second hand information. I researched back to 2004 following the published changes in either the constitution, law and regulation in an attempt to find where this mysterious change took place. I could not find anything different than the current law and regulation. Based on my research, I agree "director of the national (not state) Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores, the answer was no." You must submit the documents as required.

They have the obligation to accept your formato DNN-3 provide you with a response within 90 days.

Just curious which name you provided for your application. I assume you are a citizen.


(This post was edited by Ric Hoffman on Oct 14, 2013, 6:32 PM)


judithnpups


Oct 14, 2013, 6:49 PM

Post #28 of 79 (2894 views)

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Re: [Ric Hoffman] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Ric, I attempted to submit all the documents as required, copied, apostilled, translated, including additional documents and affidavits that were notarized, etc. etc, and they were not accepted simply because one document, and only one document, my apostilled, officially translated US birth certificate, was in my maiden name.... a name that does not and has not appeared on any other legal document, neither Mexican or American, since before 1968. I've read and understood the law and followed all the instructions, and no where on the Mexican government website is it stated that my documentation must be in my maiden name. It was decided on the spot at the SRE office in the DF.
Judith
Judith in the DF (formerly in Morelia)


CozumelComplete


Oct 14, 2013, 6:49 PM

Post #29 of 79 (2894 views)

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Re: [Ric Hoffman] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Ric, if you are right, but you are not, then HOW do you explain the past 20 years of Gringas getting thier Nationalization in thier married names??? Up until a few months ago, there were NO problems.
Patricia A Holt
Cozumel The Complete Guide II


Ric Hoffman


Oct 14, 2013, 7:31 PM

Post #30 of 79 (2886 views)

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Re: [judithnpups] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Ric, I attempted to submit all the documents as required, copied, apostilled, translated, including additional documents and affidavits that were notarized, etc. etc, and they were not accepted simply because one document, and only one document, my apostilled, officially translated US birth certificate, was in my maiden name.... a name that does not and has not appeared on any other legal document, neither Mexican or American, since before 1968. I've read and understood the law and followed all the instructions, and no where on the Mexican government website is it stated that my documentation must be in my maiden name. It was decided on the spot at the SRE office in the DF.
Judith

The regulation and formato DNN-3 call for your name, it does ask for maiden or married name, this is supported by your birth certificate duly issued as required. Mexico does not recognize the use of maiden or married names. It makes no difference if you have used it or not. In your case it is understandable why they did not accept your DNN-3 just based on name. Did you use your birth name on the DNN-3?

Since Mexico only recognizes birth names and not married names, the laws assumes your name complies to that format. It would follow suite that all other documents match the birth certificate name.

The best advice was to request an amended birth certificate from your home state. The other option is to have INM reissue your residence card after you have your passport reissued as well., etc.

Believe me, if I could have found a different answer for you I would have sent it.


RickS


Oct 14, 2013, 8:01 PM

Post #31 of 79 (2876 views)

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Re: [Ric Hoffman] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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If someone has something NEW to add to this thread, please feel free to do so. Otherwise it looks like we have two opinions going and that neither is willing or able to accept the others position.

MOD


esperanza

Oct 14, 2013, 9:35 PM

Post #32 of 79 (2862 views)

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Re: [RickS] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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PLEASE lock the thread. Ric Hoffman persists in posting incorrect information, which will ultimately confuse anyone who is affected by these recent changes.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









playaboy

Oct 15, 2013, 6:14 AM

Post #33 of 79 (2849 views)

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Re: [RickS] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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In Reply To
If someone has something NEW to add to this thread, please feel free to do so. Otherwise it looks like we have two opinions going and that neither is willing or able to accept the others position.

MOD


Don't lock the thread. There is no difference of opinion.

Rick is quoting the laws and regs, which he does very well.

Cristina and Pat are quoting real life experiences.

Longtime expat residents know by now that dealing with the Mexican bureaucracy and getting things accomplished does not always follow the written laws and regulations. I personally learned that you never get anything done telling a bureaucrat your interpretation of written laws and regs.


I would like to continue to hear from Cristina and Pat' about their actual experiences. Keep posting details of your adventure to citizenship..


CozumelComplete


Oct 15, 2013, 6:31 AM

Post #34 of 79 (2848 views)

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Re: [playaboy] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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I still have 2 years before I can apply, so I am following the others, praying the problem is resolved before it is my turn.
Patricia A Holt
Cozumel The Complete Guide II


esperanza

Oct 15, 2013, 7:52 AM

Post #35 of 79 (2832 views)

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Re: [playaboy] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Longtime expat residents know by now that dealing with the Mexican bureaucracy and getting things accomplished does not always follow the written laws and regulations. I personally learned that you never get anything done telling a bureaucrat your interpretation of written laws and regs.

I would like to continue to hear from Cristina and Pat' about their actual experiences. Keep posting details of your adventure to citizenship..


Two things: first, that statement, "I personally learned that you never get anything done telling a bureaucrat your interpretation of written laws and regs," should be required reading--nay, tattooed on the forehead!--of anyone planning to live in Mexico. It's a basic truth here.

Second, I have been a Mexican citizen for many years. My wife, Judy, is eligible now because we have been married for more than two years (two years is the required length of time) and she qualifies under that rule.

Thanks for your words of support, playaboy. You may rest assured that we will keep all of you Mexconnect-ers posted on progress, if any.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









GringoCArlos

Oct 15, 2013, 9:05 AM

Post #36 of 79 (2820 views)

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Re: [CozumelComplete] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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I think if I were in this situation, I'd find a better lawyer.

No offense esperanza, but just because someone is an abogado and is higher up in a bureaucracy doesn't necessarily mean they are a good abogado. There is always Article 13 of the Codigo Civil Federal to consider, but then again, I'm no lawyer.

Good luck ladies.


(This post was edited by GringoCArlos on Oct 15, 2013, 9:15 AM)


esperanza

Oct 15, 2013, 9:34 AM

Post #37 of 79 (2802 views)

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Re: [GringoCArlos] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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I'm pretty tired of 'blame the victim'. The problem lies with the SRE's rule change, not with us.

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careyeroslib

Oct 15, 2013, 11:14 AM

Post #38 of 79 (2792 views)

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Re: [Ric Hoffman] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Ric: Why is this fairer for all, when except in extremely rare cases men do not change their names when they get married and, in most non-hispanic countries, a vast majority of women DO change their name when they marry?

In our jurisdiction (Ontario, Canada), there is no legal way to change the name on your birth certificate. You can petition for a change of name, but that is just an additional legal document. Your birth certificate is what it is. It could not be changed.

I´m very sorry to hear this. Good luck to those involved at this moment.


mcm

Oct 15, 2013, 2:11 PM

Post #39 of 79 (2766 views)

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Re: [judithnpups] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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What a frustrating situation!
I do have one question -- you, and Esperanza, refer to the SRE office in DF -- I wonder if you mean the Central SRE office, or one of the delegations, or the Enlace office? It did occur to me that perhaps the problem you're having is one of interpretation by the head of the LOCAL office, rather than a (new) national policy. I understand that you have spoken to various officials in SRE, just wonder whether the issue MIGHT be dealt with at the central office. Probably wishful thinking, since the other poster from Cozumel has run into the same issue in Quintana Roo....

I am SO GLAD that I never changed my name when I married (either time)!!

good luck!


esperanza

Oct 15, 2013, 2:17 PM

Post #40 of 79 (2762 views)

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Re: [mcm] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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We are only working with the central office on Juárez. This is a national situation.

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citlali

Oct 15, 2013, 3:28 PM

Post #41 of 79 (2739 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Esperanza is correct.
The next problem is that if you change your name back you have to go over all your official , legal documents in Mexico and make sure that those names are going to match your new name.
Another possible problem is that if you are a US citizen and go back to your maiden name legally and were married in Mexico you will have to make sure that the marriage certificate is still valid...
The whole thing can be a big frustrating mess.


I applied 3 months ago and this is what SRE offered me.

1 to use my maiden name and my mother´s last name, I refused because I have no documents with my mother´s name except for her name appearing on the birth certificate

2 my maiden name followed by my husband´s name, I refused because it follows the Mexican moanclature and it means that my husband´s name will be understood to be my mother´s name
I was not allowed to hyphen the two names.
I was also not allowed to use my maiden name followed by" de "and may husband´s name
I was not allowed to use my husband´s nme

3 I was told I could go by my maiden name without any other name

I chose the latter option as I can prove via my marriage licenseand my birth certificate that I am also known as Plummer. In France your married name is added by hand in the margin as" epouse plummer"
I actually had to have an affidavit that my official name was my maiden name.


If the law says that SRE cannot dictate your name , someone forgot to show that law to SRE.


(This post was edited by citlali on Oct 15, 2013, 4:03 PM)


CozumelComplete


Oct 15, 2013, 4:14 PM

Post #42 of 79 (2725 views)

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Re: [citlali] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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OK, are you saying they have allowed you to move forward by using your maiden name, with your legal name on all your other documents? In other words, they are not making you change all your other documents to reflect your birth name?
Patricia A Holt
Cozumel The Complete Guide II


Ric Hoffman


Oct 15, 2013, 4:15 PM

Post #43 of 79 (2727 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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I'm pretty tired of 'blame the victim'. The problem lies with the SRE's rule change, not with us.

Again, you are stating a rule change that is stopping the DNN-3. WHERE IS THIS RULE CHANGE? The law has not changed as far back as 2004. There may be procedures handbook, acuerdo or lineamientos which may have allowed it but no more.

Complaining about laws or regulations does no one any good. Asking others how they overcame a problem is a better use of forums.

I have been very successful in dealing with GOB officials at federal, state and city levels providing extracts of law. In fact, some officials were impressed that a foreigner was concerned enough to find a law or procedure.

If I have misquoted a section of law please correct me with the appropriate reference or section.

Cristina, which name did you use? I asked before,but you didn't answer.


(This post was edited by Ric Hoffman on Oct 15, 2013, 4:32 PM)


citlali

Oct 15, 2013, 4:50 PM

Post #44 of 79 (2712 views)

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Re: [CozumelComplete] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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No they are not making me change the names BUT I am not an American.
I will use another name to give you the exemple on what I went through and what they accepted.

First of all in France the only official name women have is their paternal name or maiden name. The married name is just a traditional usage not an official name.

So for exemple I was born Jocelyne Bouisson, when I go married to Michel Leblanc my name did not change but in the margin of all official documents the mention wife of Leblanc was added and on official papers I was Jocelyne Bouisson married to Leblanc, I was known as Mrs Leblanc but it is not a legal name,
When I divorced him I was Jocelyne Bouisson again By law you cannot use the name of the ex husband in France.
I then married Thobois and he passed away so my birth certificate showed Jocelyne Bouisson widow of Thobois and I am known as widow Thobois.

My legal name never changed.

Another case when I married an American my French paper remained Jocelyne Bouisson married to Smith but my American documents showed Jocelyne Smith because in the States you can change your maiden name to your married name..this is where it gets complicated when you go to Mexico.
When I came to Mexico I first was told by immigration to use Jocelyne Smith or de Smith so they issued my papers under the name of Jocelyne Bouisson de Smith on FM3 and FM2 when I went immigrado I was told I could not use de Smith and was told to use Jocelyne Bouisson Smith I refused because Smith was not my mother and my passeport said Bouisson spouse of Smith. I had a big go around with the lawyers in Mexico city who insisted my name had to match my passport so I insisted that they put Bouisson spouse of Smith as it was the only thing that match my passport.
When I applied for citizenship the SRE lawyers told me they would not accept the spouse of mention..so I went back to Jocelyne Bouisson not showing my married name anywhere and now I have to go over the deed, wills, bank accounts etc..to make sure they are not inconflict with my nationalization papers.

By the way I still sign jocelyne smith and that is acceptable to them...do not ask,,,

Patricia

All my French documents have my maiden name and married name including my birth certificate. and I had to drop my married name. It was the simplest thing for me to do all I needed was an affidavit from the French consulate saying my legal name was my maiden name. ( I can still use my married name but not on official documents.)

If you are American you probably have a different problem since you do change name when you get married if that is what you chose to do. I know I did but I did not have to show any American documents.


Ric Hoffman


Oct 15, 2013, 4:54 PM

Post #45 of 79 (2712 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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.....I have been a Mexican citizen for many years. My wife, Judy, is eligible now because we have been married for more than two years (two years is the required length of time) and she qualifies under that rule.

Thanks for your words of support, playaboy. You may rest assured that we will keep all of you Mexconnect-ers posted on progress, if any.


Maybe we can persuade Cristina to share her experience, how she processed the DNN-3, supporting documents, etc ...


esperanza

Oct 15, 2013, 5:01 PM

Post #46 of 79 (2706 views)

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Re: [Ric Hoffman] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Much has changed in the regulations of the SRE since I became a Mexican citizen. How it worked then has almost no bearing on how it works now. In fact, others whose applications for citizenship were accepted as recently as July 2013 went through a process different from the one that applicants are required to go through now.

Anything I might post about how SRE accepted and processed my citizenship application would have nothing to do with that process in October 2013.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









judithnpups


Oct 15, 2013, 5:07 PM

Post #47 of 79 (2701 views)

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Re: [citlali] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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I have two US affidavits stating I am known by my legal (married) name in the United States, and I am the same person as named on my birth certificate. I have an Aclaración de Nombre from a Mexican notario recommended by an immigration lawyer, stating I am known by both my current legal (married) name and by the name on my birth certificate here in Mexico. I have a US passport issued in my legal (married) name with an anotation by the US government that I am also known by my maiden name. I have US marriage, divorce and death certificates (my second husband died) apostilled and translated by an official Mexian perito. I have a permanent Mexican visa, a Mexican drivers license, IMSS Seguro Social, Mexician and US bank accounts and credit cards all in only my legal (married) name. I contracted marriage under Mexican law under my legal name (not the name on my birth certificate.) NONE OF THIS WAS ACCEPTED BY SRE MAIN OFFICE IN MEXICO CITY.
What is the point of the SRE intransigence??? If the purpose of a name is to identify a person, using my maiden name, a name I have not been known by for 46 years, is not the way to find or identify me.
Judith in the DF (formerly in Morelia)


salto_jorge

Oct 15, 2013, 5:21 PM

Post #48 of 79 (2696 views)

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Re: [Ric Hoffman] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Interesting and at the same time confusing thread.

Are you sure that the current interpretation of the law applies only to divorced or widowed females?

If you use your married name, how do they know you are divorced or widowed?

What is on a married or never married female’s paperwork these days?
  • If always single, does it have both your mothers and fathers name?
  • If currently married maybe mothers, fathers and your husband’s name if married?


I thought that Mexico always recorded/traced people from generation to generation using mothers, fathers and subsequent last names based on marriage.



citlali

Oct 15, 2013, 5:23 PM

Post #49 of 79 (2689 views)

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Re: [judithnpups] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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I do feel for you Judy.
I think their point is that they want all Mexicans to have the same name structure but they really are complicating everything and making it very difficult for all women.

They de facto are telling people to change their names mid stream in their lifes after they have lived in Mexico and have an established ID in Mexico. Theyare totally ignoring all the ramifications of a sudden name change for people.

I have official papers in 3 countries and 3 different names, it is becoming a little crazy.


esperanza

Oct 15, 2013, 5:29 PM

Post #50 of 79 (2691 views)

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Re: [salto_jorge] Problems for Divorced and Widowed Females wanting Citizenship!

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Salto_Jorge:

The interpretation of the law applies to any person whose birth certificate shows a name other than her (or for that matter, his) current legal name. We do know one man who had to prove that his name had been legally changed BY COURT ORDER in the USA. He was required to submit to SRE a translated and apostilled copy of that court order.

In its citizenship application, SRE requires the submission of marriage licenses, divorce certificates, and death certificates if there are any.

--If a woman from the USA is single all of her life, the name on her birth certificate is normally her given name(s) and her father's last name.
--a USA birth certificate never changes at marriage even though the woman's last name is automatically changed LEGALLY to her husband's last name upon marriage, unless the woman opts out of that change.

The enormous majority of women in the USA continue to adopt LEGALLY their husband's last name. That name change occurs automatically at the time the marriage license is signed.

In Mexico, women do not take their husband's last name at marriage. A Mexican woman's name remains the same from birth to death.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









(This post was edited by esperanza on Oct 15, 2013, 5:34 PM)
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