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littletulip01

Apr 10, 2013, 7:14 AM

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03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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Attached is my report of yesterday´s forum here in Mazatlán.
Tom C. Whitmore, littletulip@msn.com.
Attachments: FOM forum 03 abril 2013.pdf (32.8 KB)



Lovingmexico

Apr 10, 2013, 10:06 AM

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Re: [littletulip01] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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And it totally contradicts what Aduana's main office in Mexico City is saying.


littletulip01

Apr 10, 2013, 10:09 AM

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Re: [Lovingmexico] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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May I please have a link to your written source? Tom Whitmore


Rolly


Apr 10, 2013, 10:12 AM

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Re: [Lovingmexico] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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I'm betting that the hotline guy is wrong.

Rolly Pirate


Lovingmexico

Apr 10, 2013, 10:26 AM

Post #5 of 45 (6380 views)

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Re: [Rolly] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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Rolly what are you talking about? No one is calling a "HOTLINE". The hotline is for INM. We are calling Aduana and INFOSAT main office in Mexico City. Call them your self and talk to them. Ask how you get it in writing? I and others have talked to several people at these numbers in both Spanish and English.

Laws pertaining to foreign plated vehicles comes under Federal law not the interpretation of those in Mazatlan or any other state or city in Mexico.

If you are going to have information worthy of a book, web site etc should you not call and ask?


sparks


Apr 10, 2013, 10:28 AM

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Re: [Rolly] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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The guy they found in the basement that speaks English has the answers?

Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


Lovingmexico

Apr 10, 2013, 10:30 AM

Post #7 of 45 (6375 views)

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Re: [sparks] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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Sparks, now you are just being REALLY stupid. Call and ask at both numbers and talk to several people as we all have. FYI most of the time one talks to a lawyer who happens to be a woman!!!


(This post was edited by Lovingmexico on Apr 10, 2013, 10:33 AM)


La Isla


Apr 10, 2013, 10:48 AM

Post #8 of 45 (6366 views)

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Re: [Lovingmexico] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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In Reply To
Sparks, now you are just being REALLY stupid. Call and ask at both numbers and talk to several people as we all have. FYI most of the time one talks to a lawyer who happens to be a woman!!!


Now, now, no need for insults :-) . I think that sparks' comment was rather tongue-in-cheek.


jackak10

Apr 10, 2013, 10:54 AM

Post #9 of 45 (6359 views)

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Re: [La Isla] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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In Reply To

In Reply To
Sparks, now you are just being REALLY stupid. Call and ask at both numbers and talk to several people as we all have. FYI most of the time one talks to a lawyer who happens to be a woman!!!


Now, now, no need for insults :-) . I think that sparks' comment was rather tongue-in-cheek.

Maybe. But what he meant was, all the phone calls to Aduana in Mexico City were a waste of time, the guy who speaks English doesn't know anything, etc. etc.

Not a waste of time to have the phone number AND the extension of that person for the cop to talk to handy, along with the growing stack of papers I feel I have to carry in the glovebox, just to keep possession of my own car.


Septiembre


Apr 10, 2013, 11:04 AM

Post #10 of 45 (6354 views)

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Re: [jackak10] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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Question: Have there been any more reports of car confiscations or other hassles of foreigners with Permanentes since the initial reports?


littletulip01

Apr 10, 2013, 11:37 AM

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Re: [Septiembre] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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Of course Migración and Aduana are under Mexican Federal law. You are getting bad information. The Mazatlán Migración and Aduana misinterpreted the law and regs and said Residente Permanentes who were not earning money could maintain foreign-plated cars (please read my .pdf report carefully). Aduana issued extensions. Mexico City (i.e. the Central Federal offices) of Aduana and Migración announced that our local people were wrong, that there is nothing in the new Migración law as to Residentes Permanentes being excepted if they are¨"rentistas" or, that is, people not earning money. The extensions issued by WERE CANCELLED AND THE RESIDENTES PERMANENTES PER THE AUTHORITIES IN MÉXICO CITY WERE TOLD TO IMMEDIATELY NATIONALIZE THEIR CARS OR REMOVE THEM FROM MÉXICO. You are either receiving bad information or you are dreaming....and that dream is about to become a nightmare, apparently. Sincerely, Tom C. Whitmore


littletulip01

Apr 10, 2013, 11:38 AM

Post #12 of 45 (6332 views)

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Re: [Lovingmexico] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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You don´t know what you are talking about. Rolly does not need a "know it all answer that knows nothing." Tom Whitmore


littletulip01

Apr 10, 2013, 11:43 AM

Post #13 of 45 (6331 views)

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Re: [littletulip01] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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By the way, I speak and understand Spanish and I have been studying this issue carefully for the last several months. Trust me, you are getting bad information and probably will get the same abrupt comeuppance that people here in Mazatlán received so shockingly! Sincerely, Tom C. Whitmore


Sculptari

Apr 10, 2013, 12:30 PM

Post #14 of 45 (6309 views)

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Re: [littletulip01] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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It could also be that the used car dealer is right - that the laws are in the works, Mexico City is notorious for keeping the outside areas in the dark. Maybe crooked cops are getting one last scare/shakedown before the change - or they just don't know. They are definitely not impounding in Puerto Vallarta, where the number of people with new permanante cards driving with foreign plates would be very small - less than 100? How would a policeman spot the difference between a tourist, a FM2 holder, a salesman, a student, a Mexican citizen, or a permanent resident? What a colossal waste of time - they should be checking proof of insurance and drunk driving. Anyone in charge of making these laws would surely agree. The fine for drunk driving now is over 10,000 pesos now, a few years ago it was under 2,000.
no longer active on Mexconnect


rockydog85251

Apr 10, 2013, 1:12 PM

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Re: [Sculptari] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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I don't have a dog in this fight BUT, I would almost bet money that if you call the number in D.F. again and spoke to another English speaking person, you will get a different answer each and every time you call. Best to ask in Spanish if possible. I'm betting on Rolly on this one!
Willie


nomore

Apr 10, 2013, 1:52 PM

Post #16 of 45 (6264 views)

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Re: [littletulip01] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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In Reply To
Attached is my report of yesterday´s forum here in Mazatlán.
Tom C. Whitmore, littletulip@msn.com.


We went the expensive route and almost all the limitations mentioned in the PDF file were not an issue. We did the math and for us the extra cost was well worth it.

I suggest you investigate that route more closely. Also contact a competent/respected customs broker. Ours was recommended by Aduana DF.

You might find that you don't need to return to a border, can import cars you might not be able to otherwise, that an expired TIP doesn't really matter. All the bad things you read on the Internet might not be true - or may not need to be true.

Give Aduana a call, ask for the names of a couple good brokers and then call the brokers. Ask the brokers your questions (not Aduana).

Good Luck.


Sculptari

Apr 10, 2013, 2:10 PM

Post #17 of 45 (6254 views)

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Re: [chuck4430] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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Another thing - the day after I'm issued my new Permanent card, I drive to the border as if I am going to legalize, but instead go on a little shopping trip, drive back into Mexico telling them I am a tourist, get a six month visa for the car, and keep repeating until the car can no longer make the trip. I would have the security of a permanent visa and still drive any car I want. The possibility that a traffic cop or border agent would have access to my name as a permanent is extremely unlikely. That's detective level stuff.
no longer active on Mexconnect


YucaLandia


Apr 10, 2013, 2:23 PM

Post #18 of 45 (6253 views)

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Re: [Lovingmexico] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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In Reply To
Sparks, now you are just being REALLY stupid. Call and ask at both numbers and talk to several people as we all have. FYI most of the time one talks to a lawyer who happens to be a woman!!!


Actually Sparks is spot-on.

If one keeps shopping/trolling for an English-speaking operator/clerk, to get the answer they want to hear, then: BINGO !

They find what they were looking for.

Try calling the INFO SAT line, and ask simple questions in Spanish.

Both times I called this afternoon, I got the same clear unequivocal answers four times from 2 separate agents. They said:
No, Residente Permanentes with Temporary Import Permits are not allowed to drive their cars. The day you get your Residente Permanente, your TIP expires, (no vigente).

Both agents clearly said Residente Permanentes are only allowed to drive their foreign-plated cars to the border using Retorno Seguro permits.

A quick review of past Lovingmexico posts shows Mar 14, 2013, 2:49 PM :

In Reply To
My wife just called INFOSAT (01 800 46 36 728) and the response was they have no laws pertaining to Permanent Resident. My wife spoke with Reyna Reyes. What a %$#@ mess.


Where is the controversy?

People who speak Spanish well, including US Consular Agent Edward Clancy, plus Lovingmexico's wife, and now myself have all been getting the same consistent answer from Aduana DF for over a month: Residente Permanente permit holders are not allowed to keep or drive their TIP cars in Mexico.

Published rules say only temporary residents are allowed to have foreign-plated cars in Mexico.

We all hope that the Camara de Diputados will pass legislation cleaning this up, but so far, they have not.
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


YucaLandia


Apr 10, 2013, 2:37 PM

Post #19 of 45 (6248 views)

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Re: [rockydog85251] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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I don't have a dog in this fight BUT, I would almost bet money that if you call the number in D.F. again and spoke to another English speaking person, you will get a different answer each and every time you call. Best to ask in Spanish if possible. I'm betting on Rolly on this one!


I just called the INFOSAT line two (2) times a little earlier today to confirm the INFOSAT Aduana information on Residente Permanentes driving foreign-plated cars, with a Permiso de Importación Temporal de vehiculo.

I called directly into the correct SAT answer line, using the correct voice mail prompts, without bouncing from operator to operator to try to find someone who spoke English.**

Both times I quickly reached a Spanish speaking operator. I explained in Spanish that :
~ I am a US citizen,
~ I have a 2007 model year Honda, in Mexico with a Permiso de Importación Temporal de Vehiculos,
~ I have a tarjeta de Residente Permanente de Inmigración.

I asked: Can I legally drive this vehicle? (¿Puedo legalmente conducir este vehículo?)
~ The answer: No, you cannot drive it. The Temporary Import Permit is no longer valid.
... No, su permiso de Aduana ya no es vigente. ... Ya no se puede conducir este vehículo.

~ You must get a Safer Returns permit and take the car out of Mexico.
...Usted debe obtener un permiso Retorno Seguro y permitir conducir el vehículo fuera del país.


In case I did not speak clearly, I repeated the question to the Aduana agent in a slightly different way:
... ¿Cuando yo tengo una Tarjeta de Residente Permanente, puedo legalmente manejar mi vehículo con un Permiso de Importación Temporal de vehiculo? ¿Es legal ?

The reply was a firm "no". Your permit is invalid/expires the same day your get your Residente Permanente card.
. .. No. El permiso expira el mismo día de su obtener su tarjeta de Residente Permanente.


**I called the INFOSAT line back again, used the same combination of keypad entries in the SAT voice mail system to get a correct operator. I asked the same simple questions a second time: I got the same answers from a different operator. (Instructions on how to get the correct agents at INFOSAT are posted at: http://www.mexconnect.com/...psed;page=last;#last

Simple questions, asked in clear Spanish, answered simply in clear unequivocal Spanish - with no translations ~ asking the key question 4 times, asked in 2 different ways (to cross check understandings), all prompted the same unequivocal "no" all four times. ... KISS.

Since the official rules for operating TIP vehicles as published in both the SAT manual and the Aduana Manual de Operación para la Importación Temporal de Vehículos y Motocicletas both say that foreigners must maintain either a valid (vigente) Inmigrante Rentista INM permit or a valid (vigente) No Inmigrante INM permit, and since multiple official INFOSAT information line agents are giving solid unequivocal answers in Spanish, there is little doubt left in our minds on this issue.

This all combines to say that gringos driving foreign-plated cars in Mexico should permanently import their car before they get their Residente Permanente. FM2 (Inmigrante Rentista) and FM3 (No Inmigrante) can import 8 and 9 year old cars inside Mexico at places like Progreso, or Vera Cruz, or possibly Puerto Vallara (official ports that have Aduana offices and customs brokers). If the car was imported into Mexico before Sept. 2011, then they do not need emissions certs.

This means that 2004 and 2005 model year cars are legal to import at reasonable rates at multiple places inside Mexico. 6 year old cars and older can be imported at the border.

There are details on the options at: Options for Foreign-Plated “TIP” Car Owners in Mexico, esp for Permanent Residents

Happy Trails,
steve
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Apr 10, 2013, 2:41 PM)


littletulip01

Apr 10, 2013, 2:50 PM

Post #20 of 45 (6231 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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As a Residente Permanente you are not entitled to have a tourist visa. If you obtain one, it does not make it right. Get caught and good luck! (sit back and use some good old fashioned common sense). Tom Whitmore


bournemouth

Apr 10, 2013, 2:55 PM

Post #21 of 45 (6229 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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But importation is only possible for NAFTA built cars - right?

We have two J vehicles and these will have to leave - right again??


Sculptari

Apr 10, 2013, 3:09 PM

Post #22 of 45 (6219 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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Another thing if this becomes the law, which is only the law now because of fine print, not yet corrected, it is a bad law. The penalty - confiscation of a vehicle, does not fit the crime - not paying duty to permanently import a car. It shrieks of politics, appeasing the lefties who think foreigners should not have any more benefit than Mexican citizens, and appeasing the righties, car manufacturers/dealers. There is also the important detail that this is being forced upon people - you must become an immigrant to Mexico. This was not "the deal" when most people signed on a few years ago - it is significant changing of "the deal".

Now bad laws in Mexico are easily sorted in Mexico - they get before a judge who strikes them down. Bad laws cost a lot of pesos to correct and they are difficult to enforce. How much harm would it really be to the United States of Mexico if Aduana charged a flat fee of 2,000 to 5,000 pesos to import a personal vehicle, from any year or manufacture. Especially in light of the statements that these new reforms were meant to make the process easier, and to attract a better class of immigrants.

Tourism is down, snowbirds are down, sunbirds are down - this is the wrong time to be sending this message. A lot of people seem to be leaving Lake Chapala, properties are extremely difficult to sell. What I think is scary to most people is how the government can change "the deal" so suddenly, and so sloppily, that it actually frightens people. They must have outsourced their law making department to Stalinist era Russia!
no longer active on Mexconnect


YucaLandia


Apr 10, 2013, 3:15 PM

Post #23 of 45 (6210 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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In Reply To
But importation is only possible for NAFTA built cars - right?

We have two J vehicles and these will have to leave - right again??


Correct. To use the ports, it needs to be a NAFTA manufactured car, 8 or 9 years old (2004 or 2005 model years), no breaks in the INM permit and no breaks in the Aduana permit.

This stuff and more details are in the weblink I included above.

You might note that both TioCorp (Chappala?) and Sr. Gerardo Uc (Chetumal) are importing J - Japanese and German manufactured cars, doing paper-only applications (do not have to have the car), but they charge $25,000 pesos, more or less. Sr. Uc includes Tamaulipas plates in his deal.
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


littletulip01

Apr 10, 2013, 3:17 PM

Post #24 of 45 (6206 views)

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Re: [littletulip01] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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Change is always hard to accept.....and when one is used to something for a long time and that person has achieved an age above retirement (like my 73 years), change is almost impossible to accept.....but we must accept it and move on. To wait for legislative change is a waste of time since that probably will not come rapidly. Tom Whitmore


stevebrtx

Apr 10, 2013, 3:48 PM

Post #25 of 45 (6188 views)

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Re: [littletulip01] 03 abril 2013 Friends of México Forum on Foreign-plated cars

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Change isn't hard, it's stupidity, idiocy, incompetency etc that are hard to accept. When you set your foot down, you do it with dignity, you do it with conviction and you do it with permanency, I have watched this passing parade of court jesters, fools and absolute idiots for over 4 months now and I see it only getting worse, this is a new level of incompetency even in Mexico.

I was in Guad/Tonala today and took a new arrival there for the first time and told her that when I drive in Guad I drive with conviction like I know where I'm going, I spend money like I have it and I never let them see fear in my eyes, the MXN government would do well to adopt similar credos or be cast as the apparent parade of jesters they are.
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