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YucaLandia

Mar 29, 2013, 8:03 AM

Post #1 of 121 (17591 views)

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Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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There are a number of us out here who were anticipating applying for naturalized Mexican citizenship under the workable combination of the old pre-2011 INM Law and the current SRE rules, but now the Gob. rules have changed to a mixture of incompatible requirement.

The existing SRE rules have been:
~ Stay in Mexico for at least 18 months of the last 24 months before applying for citizenship, (no more than 180 days outside of Mexico during the prior 2 years - as proven by the legible stamps in your passport);

~ Complete at least 4.5 years on an FM2/Inmigrante (=> the INM card that requires near full-time residency); and then

~ Apply for Citizenship with SRE, while you still had 6 months left on an INM permit.

Well, since the new INM (SEGOB) law forces one to go to Residente Permanente after just 4 years of FM2/No Inmigrante/Residente Temporal, it makes a mess out of meeting for the existing SRE rule for completing “5 years on FM2/Inmigrante”. A lawyer we have spoken to on this says to go ahead and get a Residente Permanente card, (to meet the 5 year requirement), and then we'll see what SRE does in the meantime. 4 does not equal 5...

This makes practical sense, because the existing SRE rules allow the old Inmigrado card holders to apply for citizenship, and Inmigrado = Residente Permanente plus one year, or 2 years, or 3 years, or 4 years**…

Where's the problem?
If you live in Yucatan, the Merida INM office fortunately combines past FM3 years with current FM2 years to qualify applicants for Residente Permanente, where your aggregate of more than 4 years on FM2+FM3 qualifies you for Residente Permanente.

**Consider a person who had 5 years on an FM3, and has just completed 1 year on an FM2. Under the current system, this person can never achieve the SRE required 5 years of FM2. Since they did not complete 5 years on an FM2/Inmigrante, SRE rules say that they definitely do not qualify for citizenship.

This leaves the expat wanting citizenship in a bit of legal limbo, (purgatory?), because the applicant then has Residente Permanente with just 1 year on an FM2. ~ This means that to hit 5 years of official full time residency (FM2?) status, ... ? This is one example of how the new Residente Permanente is NOT equivalent to Inmigrado (regardless of the INM law's Transitorios statements). As a result, we have heard that SRE is sitting-on (not processing) recent Naturalized Citizenship applications as they wait for guidance (from the Legislature?).

Logic would say applicants with just 1 year of FM2/Inmigrante completed, then likely have to complete 4 additional years of Residente Permanente to add to their prior 1 completed years of FM2, to meet the SRE requirements for an effective 5 years of full time residency?

Has anyone heard expat reports of how this SRE process is working under new post-Nov. 8, 2012 INM rules?

Also: How do breaks in the citizenship applicant's FM2/Inmigrante's permit affect how SRE actually handles real cases? .... (e.g. after 20 years in Mexico, friend allowed his FM2 to lapse last year, paid his fine, and continued on the same FM2 permit)

steve

post script: I will be applying for citizenship in the next 3 months, but I qualify as the legal spouse of a Mexicana, and have completed SRE's required 2 years of FM2/Inmigrante. I ask for insights and other people's experiences on behalf of friends.
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Mar 29, 2013, 8:44 AM)

tashby

Mar 29, 2013, 9:43 AM

Post #2 of 121 (17531 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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I have no answers, but I'm finding myself caught somewhere in this limbo, too. So I'll be keeping my ears open.

In my case, I changed from an FM3 with two prorrogas to an FM2/Inmigrante visa a couple of years ago. I did this specifically to fast-track myself on the path to citizenship. Had I just kept the FM3/Non-inmigrante visa, it would have the magic number 4 on the back this year, and I would be allowed to apply for Permanente this year without needing to provide financial information. My renewal date is next week, so I've decided to go ahead and pull together the paperwork to apply for Permanente by demonstrating financial solvency. It's a bit more work for me, but I want it done.

I'm working under the assumption (okay, it's just a guess) that no matter what, the sooner I have Permanente status, the sooner I'll be allowed to apply for citizenship. I'm keeping copies of all previous visas just in case at some point I need to demonstrate consecutive years in Mexico.

P.S. Forgot to mention, our INM Office (Guadalajara) is NOT allowing people to apply for "automatic" Permanente status by combining years on previous visas.

(This post was edited by tashby on Mar 29, 2013, 9:54 AM)

viktoremski

Mar 29, 2013, 12:33 PM

Post #3 of 121 (17487 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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"Logic would say applicants with just 1 year of FM2/Inmigrante completed, then likely have to complete 4 additional years of Residente Permanente to add to their prior 1 completed years of FM2, to meet the SRE requirements for an effective 5 years of full time residency?"
That's exactly what SRE official told me when I went there a few weeks ago upon receiving my Residente Permanente from INM. He also mentioned that there are going to be changes to their rules, but he did not believe my FM3 years would ever count toward citizenship. Only FM2 and RP.

MexDog

Apr 2, 2013, 3:21 PM

Post #4 of 121 (17286 views)

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Re: [tashby] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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My husband had 5 years on his previous fm3 Lucrativa and had 2 years on his new fm 3 Lucrativa and was not allowed to combine the past 5 with the current 2 to apply for Residente Permanente. He will have temporal and has paid for the additional 2 years. This is going to put him in the same predicament listed for Citizenship. Any suggestions?

YucaLandia

Apr 2, 2013, 5:52 PM

Post #5 of 121 (17253 views)

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Re: [MexDog] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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Based on your story, your husband has not completed any years towards becoming eligible for Mexican citizenship.

As described in the first post above, under the current SRE rules, he will need to complete 5 years of full time INM residence status - which meant 5 years of FM2/Inmigrante, (unless you are a Mexicana)**. His "2 years on his new fm 3 Lucrativa" is only as a No Inmigrante (temporary / non-full-time resident), and does not count towards SRE's 5 year requirement.

The shortest route to citizenship is to renew his No Inmigrante Lucrativa for 2 more years, completing 4 years on a Residente Temporal, which then would qualify him for Residente Permanente. SRE would then have to evaluate his full-time status to determine if he met their 5 year rule. They may say that he would have to complete ??? 3 ? or 5 ? additional years as a Residente Permanente, to meet the 5 year rule...

This is exactly why I started this thread, because the current SRE rules do NOT fit INM's new residency categories and requirements. In any case, your husband will need to complete 5 years of residency that meet SRE's requirements. The Camara de Diputados will likely have to pass a new law, detailing new SRE requirements that fit the new INM categories, while your husband is completing his 5 years of the official equivalent to Inmigrante residency.
steve

**SRE reduces the full time resident requirement to just 2 years, for spouses of Mexican citizens.
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Apr 2, 2013, 6:24 PM)

John Shrall

Aug 11, 2013, 7:33 AM

Post #6 of 121 (16535 views)

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This is an old thread that is taking on more relevance as my wife and I start to explore the naturalization process.

Our situation is probably a little different than most as we were forced to go the permanente route on the day we went to INM ready to apply for inmigrado. We went on the day after our 5 years on FM2 expired and a few days before the new rules were to go into effect last November.

We have the 5 years on FM2, and another 5 on FM3 but didn't make application at the 4.5 year mark as you describe.

In the first email from the attorney he asked the question as to our status prior to permanente and if it was FM2, how many years on that status and in addition, how many years in Mexico in total.

We'll just have to see how this plays out over the coming months.

La Isla

Aug 11, 2013, 9:19 AM

Post #7 of 121 (16502 views)

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Re: [John Shrall] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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Though my situation is a bit different from yours (5 years on an FM3 and a just-granted Residente Permanente), I'm planning on applying for Mexican citizenship as soon as I'm eligible, though definitely not this year. Please let us know how things go for you.

citlali

Aug 11, 2013, 9:19 AM

Post #8 of 121 (16501 views)

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Re: [John Shrall] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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You do not need an attorney to apply for citizenship just go to the SRE site and follow the instructions. The people at the SRE are a lot more helpful and friendly than the INM´s
Get an appointment over the phone and go there to talk to them if you have questions or go by and they will see you if they do not have appointments.
The hang up can be the woman´s name and you need to make sure that all the names on all your documents are the same. They are extremely picky about the names. You need your birth certificate, apostilled and translated by an official court translator and it cannot be over 3 months old. you also need to go to Mexico city to get a police record ( not over 3 month old)in Coyoacan. In order to do that you will need your birth certificate translated and apostilled and make sure you do not give them the original. The police record from Jalisco can be had at the Forensic office on the side of the markey in Chapala.You also need to have a letter showing your movement in and out of Mexico in the previous 2 years that is easy since you should be able to have all the records fro your passport.
Jusr follow the list they give you on the site, present your papers for review and then make the appointment to present yourself with receipt of payment and that is it, The test is also on the site , they list all the questions you maybe asked and they will ask 5 questions.

Any questions ask them directly .

When everything is ready they will give you the form for the bank you pay the fee and you will get the citizenship 4 to 8 months later.

riovista

Aug 11, 2013, 11:37 AM

Post #9 of 121 (16468 views)

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Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

I'm curious - now that there is permanent resident status why would a US citizen want Mexican citizenship ? I guess you could vote in Mexico. You still have to pay US taxes right ? Can a person collect US social security if they opt out of US citizenship ? What are the advantages of dual-citizenship ? Thanks.

richmx2

Aug 11, 2013, 12:43 PM

Post #10 of 121 (16451 views)

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Re: [lhpdiver] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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One can be a dual national... you don't lose your U.S. citizenship if you are also a naturalized citizen of another country. And, of course, you have to pay taxes if you earn money here, even if you're not a citizen. But people take out Mexican nationality for all kinds of reasons, some purely utilitarian (owning property in the reserved zone, doing business in Cuba, etc.) and some for any number of personal or ideological reasons. Some of us just feel more at home here than there.

http://mexfiles.net
http://mexicobookpublishers.com

mcm

Aug 11, 2013, 1:37 PM

Post #11 of 121 (16441 views)

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Re: [lhpdiver] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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The permanent resident status is really no different than Inmigrado, which one used to get after five years with an FM-2 (inmigrante). So, people interested in becoming naturalized Mexican citizens are doing it for the same reason(s) as they did previously -- as was pointed out above (economic issues, like owning property in the restricted zone, or political or ideological reasons -- wanting to be able to vote and participate in political activities, or just feeling that their life and affiliations are more in Mexico than in their native country, and wanting to demonstrate that commitment. Becoming a citizen of Mexico does not affect your ability to receive your US social security benefits.

riovista

Aug 11, 2013, 3:30 PM

Post #12 of 121 (16422 views)

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Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

1) So there is only upside to dual US/Mexican citizenship for a US citizen ?

2) What is the downside to a US citizen to convert to simply Mexican citizenship ? I believe there is a new tax on your US assets. Do you also give up access to US social security etc ?

YucaLandia

Aug 11, 2013, 5:44 PM

Post #13 of 121 (16385 views)

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Re: [lhpdiver] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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Let's assume you follow the path richmex proposed, where you get Mexican citizenship, but keep your US citizenship at the same time. Hint: The USA does not allow us to stop being US citizens, until they say so. The only way to stop being a US citizen (from Mexico) is to submit a written official renunciation of your US citizenship to a US Consulate. Then, you are still a US citizen until the IRS decides that you have paid any taxes that might be owed (like estate taxes, as if you died), and then the US State Department has to approve your ending of US citizenship.

Most US citizens who get Mexican Citizenship do NOT renounce their US citizenship, and they carry 2 passports, and live in legal limbo: where it is not strictly legal for a US citizen to get Mexican Citizenship, but the US Senate voted to not prosecute this in 1987, and in 1993 the US State Department agreed to not prosecute American citizens who get Mexican citizenship - unless you offend the US government (e.g. Don't make public published statements trashing the US Govt, and don't go to the UN and make anti-US speeches, as these actions has caused the US State Department to cancel such agitator's passports in the past.)

You can travel around the world using the passport of your choice. Note that persons carrying Mexican passports are not necessarily as welcome as Americans in a number of countries. Check the joint "no visa" agreements that Mexico holds with other countries vs. for US citizens. A number of past expat reports say that their Mexican passports were not welcomed in Central and Eastern Europe, while their US passports gained them easy and rapid processing at borders/entry points.

You can participate in Mexican political affairs as a citizen, and you can vote. Property ownership and survivor's benefits are more easily resolved (esp. if you are married to a Mexican who dies, and Mexican family members make claims on the estate).

Tax situation:
Your tax status with the US stays the same. You still owe US taxes as agreed upon in the US-Mexico 1993 Tax Treaty and updates: Tax Issues for Americans Living and Working in Mexico – A Redux for 2013
Summaries of US Tax Laws Affecting Citzens Living Abroad – TAX TIME 2013 !
Tax Issues for Americans and Other Expats Living in Mexico

You would owe taxes if you work in the USA, and as a Mexican citizen, the Mexican government does in principle consider Mexican citizen's world-wide income as taxable. Read the 3 article listed above for details.

Downsides?
1. You are fully liable to prosecution and incarceration under all the laws of the USA as a US citizen when in the USA.
2. You are fully liable to prosecution and incarceration under all the laws of Mexico as a Mexican citizen when in Mexico.
3. You surrender any support or aid by the Embassies or Consulates of either country if you are arrested in Mexico or in the USA.
4. You surrender the support of your US Congressional Representative, if you get arrested in Mexico - and possibly in other countries(?).
5. Mexicans are not universally welcomed into other countries (as described above).
http://travel.state.gov/.../fees/fees_3272.html versus http://embassy-finder.com/...with_mexico_passport
6. You do risk losing your US passport if the US State Department becomes seriously annoyed with you, while you remain fully liable for IRS taxes and property seizure even while they take your US passport.

There are other downsides that currently elude me, so, I'll write more later on this.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

careyeroslib

Aug 11, 2013, 6:24 PM

Post #14 of 121 (16374 views)

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For Canadians, it looks as if we would get our birth certificates (and, in the case of someone who changed their name at marriage) translated through a certified translator recommended by the Mexican Consulate in the place of our birth (or, in my case (woman) marriage). We don´t have the same legal process as in the US (apostillate).

It is also unclear from the SRE website I pulled up whether FM3 time would be counted towards the 5 years required, since it still says 5 years of "Inmigrante or Inmigrado". Luckily we kept photocopies of our years of FM2/Inmigrante Visas, including all the pages the old grey book, so, when we apply, we will submit all of that as a demonstration of continuous 5 years residency.

As for time out of the country,, alll that I saw was that you had to list in a letter "bajo protesta de decir verdad" all your entradas and salidas for the past two years prior to applying.

Is this more or less correct?

YucaLandia

Aug 11, 2013, 7:09 PM

Post #15 of 121 (16365 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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I can only address the time out of Mexico issue, regardless of Canadian or US citizenship: no more than 18 months total aggregate over the previous 24 months - as proven by legible passport stamps. SRE reserves the right to say that slightly smudged passport stamps can disqualify the applicant (as not proving you were in Mexico) - and SRE also reserves the right to determine that applicants who cannot speak sufficiently good Spanish to make their own application in-person** ~ without aide of a lawyer or Mexican (translator) friend ~ also do not qualify. This means that some SRE offices allow applicants to fly through easily, while others simply say you cannot prove that you have been inside Mexico enough or that you do not speak sufficiently good Spanish.

**This means that at some SRE offices (like Merida), "passing" the "Spanish test" can actually be accomplished by the simple act of you entering the SRE office alone, and initiating the process, successfully, alone. Applicants who either bring a Mexican friend +or spouse to help translate, or applicants who are use overly clumsy-Spanish while initially applying, are effectively (quietly) disqualified. These sort of quirky local-eccentricities can very well mean the applicants really should first contact knowledgeable local attorneys to get advice and aid in applying for citizenship - getting your ducks in a row - which is slightly counter to the advice above of solely Doing It Yourself .
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 11, 2013, 7:13 PM)

esperanza

Aug 11, 2013, 9:15 PM

Post #16 of 121 (16340 views)

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A word of consolation: people over 60 are not required to take the Mexican history and culture test.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

citlali

Aug 11, 2013, 9:37 PM

Post #17 of 121 (16334 views)

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I am French worked for 30 years in the US paid SS and I get social security even if I am not a US citizen or live in the US. Social Security has nothing to do with your nationality, Many "iillegals" pay social security but never collect.

(This post was edited by citlali on Aug 11, 2013, 9:43 PM)

citlali

Aug 11, 2013, 9:50 PM

Post #18 of 121 (16332 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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If people who do not speak Spanish are quietly eliminated what help will a lawyer be. I first went to see a lawyer in Guadlajara who told me I would be better off by myself..

Anonimo

Aug 12, 2013, 12:18 AM

Post #19 of 121 (16320 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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In Reply To

A word of consolation: people over 60 are not required to take the Mexican history and culture test.

I would WANT to take the test. I would want to qualify proudly, and without exemptions. That is, IF I decided to apply for citizenship.

Anonimo

careyeroslib

Aug 12, 2013, 5:21 AM

Post #20 of 121 (16298 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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Yucalandia, or anyone, what is the time out of the country allowed in the last 24 months. I couldn´t see it on the requirements. Is it really no more than 18 months?

YucaLandia

Aug 12, 2013, 6:00 AM

Post #21 of 121 (16287 views)

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Re: [citlali] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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In Reply To

If people who do not speak Spanish are quietly eliminated what help will a lawyer be. I first went to see a lawyer in Guadlajara who told me I would be better off by myself..

The lawyer's advice can be the difference between being approved and being rejected. e.g. In the case where bringing-along a Mexican spouse of friend who does even just light translating, ultimately results in being disqualified later, that point alone would seem worth knowing. Also, some SRE offices accept translations of Birth Certificates from just one or 2 translators in the area.

In both cases, you may have intermediate-level Spanish skills, and still not completely understand what was said. With no pre-advice from a good lawyer who knows the quirks of local SRE process, you could get rejected based on "insufficient Spanish language proficiency" by either bringing the friend/spouse or not understanding the subtleties of why SRE did not accept your apostilled & translated Birth Certificate. e.g. Would you expect that the Merida SRE office only accepts translations from a special certified translator over in Cancun? (as you struggle to comprehend why they want you to go 4 hours away to Cancun.... you fail the informal "Spanish language comprehension test".)

Sure, you can do it all DIY... Alternately, a number of old-timer expats have recommended getting professional advice/aid.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

YucaLandia

Aug 12, 2013, 6:05 AM

Post #22 of 121 (16284 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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In Reply To

Yucalandia, or anyone, what is the time out of the country allowed in the last 24 months. I couldn´t see it on the requirements. Is it really no more than 18 months?

Arrrrgh....

My typos and Mexconnect's quirky editing/updating feature bit me.

180 days in the past 24 months.

I started out writing the formats as 6 months out of 24 months, and then shifted to 180 ... I typed the correct version when editing , and then went back and re-edited the post to add another item - but if we re-open a post too quickly, the Mexconnect server does not effectively save the prior edit, and you lose your previous changes...

I did not appropriately check my final version. Bad dog....
No biscuit,
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

careyeroslib

Aug 12, 2013, 9:57 AM

Post #23 of 121 (16215 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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No I´m the one that shouldn´t get the biscuit. Your first post made it very clear. Me no read good. Have a second biscuit! (Mine)

viktoremski

Aug 12, 2013, 11:16 AM

Post #24 of 121 (16196 views)

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"...Mexican passports were not welcomed in Central and Eastern Europe."
I traveled to Poland with my Mexican friend three times, and he never had any problems there. He did not need a visa, either. We also visited Germany and France - no problems and no visa requirement for Mexican citizens there, either ;-]
Vic

careyeroslib

Aug 12, 2013, 3:16 PM

Post #25 of 121 (16157 views)

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Re: [viktoremski] Any News on How SRE is Handling Citizenship Requests?

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Anyway, seriously, let´s keep this thread alive and informative. If there is a change in SRE requirements, let´s report it here.

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