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rayitodeluna

Nov 30, 2012, 8:52 AM

Post #1 of 36 (56162 views)

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Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Me again! Enjoying the mexican kitchen if you havent noticed.

I would like to make yogurt and jocoque at home. I recently bought the
Libanius brand Jocoque (con chipotle) and it was delicious! Truthfully I bought it because it looked kinda like hummus or baba ghanoush and the brand name seemed like it may make Lebanese food. Turns out it is strained yogurt , and delicious! We have used it to dip veggies in and smear on pita bread.

(I am talking about the jocoque that has more of a hummus consitency, is that the jocoque seco? Because the other one I have seen online discussed is more of a thinner sour cream consitency. I found a tutorial how to make your own, but you need to start with jocoque natural -which the Libanius dip is NOT I am assuming- and then eventually strain it like making greek yogurt for your desired consitency)

Back on the subject...anyone know which brand of yogurt is natural with no added sugars or thickening agents and has live cultures? I have seen what the jocoque natural looks like in photos, anyone know which big stores carry it?

I was planning on using the method where you heat milk and add already made yogurt (that has to have live cultures ) or jocoque to it, which is why I need to find a started yogurt.


[have I mentioned I have a 3 yr old and 1.5 yr old? Makes it harder to drive around reading the back on yogurt containers for ingredients ;) would love any tips here, or I can drag the muñecas around looking myself but you might hear their complaints if you are in a 5 mile radius ]

~~~~~~ Enjoying life in northern D.F. with our family of Americans and chilangos.
Family and expat blog here : http://threecurlygirlys.blogspot.mx/ ~~~~~~



rayitodeluna

Nov 30, 2012, 9:51 AM

Post #2 of 36 (56147 views)

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Re: [rayitodeluna] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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This is how I was gonna prepare the jocoque (and do different varieties with chive, chipotle, honey etc for different uses)

http://foro.univision.com/...-CASA/td-p/361020073

Excuse the authors CAPS ;)

~~~~~~ Enjoying life in northern D.F. with our family of Americans and chilangos.
Family and expat blog here : http://threecurlygirlys.blogspot.mx/ ~~~~~~

(This post was edited by rayitodeluna on Nov 30, 2012, 10:13 AM)


mazbook1


Nov 30, 2012, 2:08 PM

Post #3 of 36 (56135 views)

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Re: [rayitodeluna] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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First, although yogurt, jocoque and buttermilk all are formed by various (but different) lactobacilli, the process for making them is nearly the same. Actually, filtered buttermilk is closer to jocoque seco than is filtered yogurt.

Yogurt, bring your milk up to 120F (49C), allow to cool slightly, add 1 cup of natural yogurt (there is one brand, available all over México, that is unsweetened natural yogurt with no additives, but I can't remember the brand name right now.), MAINTAIN the mixture at a temperature between 100F (38C) and the 120F (49C) for several hours (depending on just how much milk you are converting to yogurt) until the yogurt coagulates. Refrigerate immediately! VOILA!

Jocoque, bring your milk up to 86F (30C), add 1 cup of natural jocoque and maintain at approximately this temperature for several hours, although room temperature, if it's not lower than about 75F (24C), will work fine, just a bit slower, until the jocoque coagulates. Refrigerate immediately. If you want jocoque seco, filter off the liquid (whey) once the jocoque is chilled.

Buttermilk, with your milk at room temperature (although the process is slow if less than 70F (21C)), add 1 cup of any good LOCAL brand (in the U.S. or Canada) of cultured buttermilk and allow to set (COVERED) several hours until the buttermilk coagulates. Refrigerate immediately.

Both natural yogurt and natural buttermilk made in this manner are delicious. Both may have the liquid filtered off once chilled, making, respectively, what's often called yogurt cheese or buttermilk cheese, in various U.S. natural foods cookbooks or in many places on the Internet.

Note: Be certain not to use the last unfiltered cup of what you make with the recipes above, as that last cup can be used in place of the commercial products for making your next batch.

Note: If you want to continue using your homemade product as starter for the next batch, be sure that the milk being coagulated is ALWAYS COVERED with, at the very least, a damp cloth, and that you have used sterilized containers all the way through the process, otherwise your homemade product will sooner or later, depending on how careful you are, pickup wild yeasts and bacteria from the air and get a yeasty flavor or "off" flavor. I sterilize the pans and containers I use by rinsing them internally with a small amount of undiluted Cloro (Clorox), then rinsing them again with chlorinated city water, then allowing them to air-dry upside down until I need them. That's sufficient sterilization for this process.


sparks


Nov 30, 2012, 2:46 PM

Post #4 of 36 (56126 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Alpura plain unsweetened yogurt is the best I've found. And the only place that sells it in our area is Walmart in Manzanillo

Sparks Mexico Blog - Sparks Costalegre


mazbook1


Nov 30, 2012, 3:16 PM

Post #5 of 36 (56122 views)

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Re: [sparks] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Thanks sparks, that was the brand name I couldn't remember. I have used it as a starter for homemade yogurt, so I know it works.


sfmacaws


Nov 30, 2012, 3:37 PM

Post #6 of 36 (56117 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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I've heard that if you strain regular yogurt, it will become greek yogurt. Anyone know if that works? I've not found greek yogurt here but it would be easy to put the Alpura in cheesecloth in the refrigerator overnight if that would do it.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




esperanza

Nov 30, 2012, 3:45 PM

Post #7 of 36 (56115 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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I've made so-called Greek yoghurt using Alpura unsweetened. I couldn't source cheesecloth, so I used a coffee filter. I put the coffee filter into a wire strainer, filled the coffee filter with yoghurt, and let it drain into a slightly larger container in the refrigerator. After about 24 hours, the thick yoghurt was ready to eat. Frankly and IMHO, it was okay but nothing to get all whipped up about.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









sfmacaws


Nov 30, 2012, 3:51 PM

Post #8 of 36 (56111 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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hmmm, maybe there is some other difference between the two. I found some loose, cotton fabric and use that as cheesecloth. I used it recently to strain cooked squash so it would be thicker for pumpkin pies. I think I'll try it and see how it tastes.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




morgaine7


Nov 30, 2012, 4:04 PM

Post #9 of 36 (56110 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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When I lived in Egypt, sour cream wasn't available, so I used coffee filters to "turn yoghurt into sour cream" (really more like labnah, which I think is similar to Greek yoghurt). I just put the filter in one of those plastic Melitta filter holders with a fridge container underneath, dumped the yoghurt in, and left it overnight or longer. But the yoghurt was different there, particularly in consistency, and the taste was also a bit stronger. What we get in Mexico seems creamier, maybe more homogenized, so I haven't tried it here.

Kate


mazbook1


Nov 30, 2012, 4:08 PM

Post #10 of 36 (56106 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Kate, maybe that Egyptian yogurt was made from camel's milk. LOL


morgaine7


Nov 30, 2012, 4:29 PM

Post #11 of 36 (56101 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Egyptians in rural areas frequently used water buffalo milk for dairy products. I think the commercial brand I used was cow's milk, but I don't recall ever actually checking. Tongue


rayitodeluna

Nov 30, 2012, 9:23 PM

Post #12 of 36 (56080 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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First, although yogurt, jocoque and buttermilk all are formed by various (but different) lactobacilli, the process for making them is nearly the same. Actually, filtered buttermilk is closer to jocoque seco than is filtered yogurt.

Yogurt, bring your milk up to 120F (49C), allow to cool slightly, add 1 cup of natural yogurt (there is one brand, available all over México, that is unsweetened natural yogurt with no additives, but I can't remember the brand name right now.), MAINTAIN the mixture at a temperature between 100F (38C) and the 120F (49C) for several hours (depending on just how much milk you are converting to yogurt) until the yogurt coagulates. Refrigerate immediately! VOILA!

Jocoque, bring your milk up to 86F (30C), add 1 cup of natural jocoque and maintain at approximately this temperature for several hours, although room temperature, if it's not lower than about 75F (24C), will work fine, just a bit slower, until the jocoque coagulates. Refrigerate immediately. If you want jocoque seco, filter off the liquid (whey) once the jocoque is chilled.

Buttermilk, with your milk at room temperature (although the process is slow if less than 70F (21C)), add 1 cup of any good LOCAL brand (in the U.S. or Canada) of cultured buttermilk and allow to set (COVERED) several hours until the buttermilk coagulates. Refrigerate immediately.

Both natural yogurt and natural buttermilk made in this manner are delicious. Both may have the liquid filtered off once chilled, making, respectively, what's often called yogurt cheese or buttermilk cheese, in various U.S. natural foods cookbooks or in many places on the Internet.

Note: Be certain not to use the last unfiltered cup of what you make with the recipes above, as that last cup can be used in place of the commercial products for making your next batch.

Note: If you want to continue using your homemade product as starter for the next batch, be sure that the milk being coagulated is ALWAYS COVERED with, at the very least, a damp cloth, and that you have used sterilized containers all the way through the process, otherwise your homemade product will sooner or later, depending on how careful you are, pickup wild yeasts and bacteria from the air and get a yeasty flavor or "off" flavor. I sterilize the pans and containers I use by rinsing them internally with a small amount of undiluted Cloro (Clorox), then rinsing them again with chlorinated city water, then allowing them to air-dry upside down until I need them. That's sufficient sterilization for this process.


Thank you! That clears up some of my doubts about the process. A couple different sites had different temps listed for the different processes....Athough Im sure its something that just needs to be tried and not fretted over.

One thing no one mentioned was keeping the milk covered with a cloth, I apreciate that tip. Random smells and tastes that get transferred between food in the fridge really stand out on my pallette, so that tip will probably save me from throwing out and starting all over again.

~~~~~~ Enjoying life in northern D.F. with our family of Americans and chilangos.
Family and expat blog here : http://threecurlygirlys.blogspot.mx/ ~~~~~~


rayitodeluna

Nov 30, 2012, 9:32 PM

Post #13 of 36 (56079 views)

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Re: [sparks] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Alpura plain unsweetened yogurt is the best I've found. And the only place that sells it in our area is Walmart in Manzanillo


I found some of this today and bought it before you posted.. But I was wondering why if it says "sin azucar" and sugar is not listed as an ingredient, it was 8.3grams of sugar listed on the nutritional information? Is that sugarthat naturally occurs in milk ?

That may be a really silly question but nothing wrong with asking to be sure!

~~~~~~ Enjoying life in northern D.F. with our family of Americans and chilangos.
Family and expat blog here : http://threecurlygirlys.blogspot.mx/ ~~~~~~


rayitodeluna

Nov 30, 2012, 9:40 PM

Post #14 of 36 (56076 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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I've heard that if you strain regular yogurt, it will become greek yogurt. Anyone know if that works? I've not found greek yogurt here but it would be easy to put the Alpura in cheesecloth in the refrigerator overnight if that would do it.


I have made greek style yogurt that way many times, works especially well if you do it overnight. I have actually done that in a pinch with several layers of paper towel if I couldnt find the cheesecloth.

It sure tastes yummy that way and I love the consistency. I like tzaziki sauce made with greek yogurt, more like a dip instead of a dressing.

~~~~~~ Enjoying life in northern D.F. with our family of Americans and chilangos.
Family and expat blog here : http://threecurlygirlys.blogspot.mx/ ~~~~~~


rayitodeluna

Nov 30, 2012, 9:48 PM

Post #15 of 36 (56073 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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hmmm, maybe there is some other difference between the two. I found some loose, cotton fabric and use that as cheesecloth. I used it recently to strain cooked squash so it would be thicker for pumpkin pies. I think I'll try it and see how it tastes.


I think you are both right. Real greek yogurt is more than than thicker regular yogurt, but it works ok.

Mmm pumpkin pies. I cant seem to find nutmeg (nuez moscada) here in our neighborhood, guess I need to branch out further to find some.

ETA: i did find whole nutmeg but my kitchen stuff isnt unpacked since our house isnt done...and my MIL doesnt have a suffiecent grater. Any other way to grate one whole? Anyone know?

~~~~~~ Enjoying life in northern D.F. with our family of Americans and chilangos.
Family and expat blog here : http://threecurlygirlys.blogspot.mx/ ~~~~~~

(This post was edited by rayitodeluna on Nov 30, 2012, 9:49 PM)


rayitodeluna

Nov 30, 2012, 9:53 PM

Post #16 of 36 (56071 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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When I lived in Egypt, sour cream wasn't available, so I used coffee filters to "turn yoghurt into sour cream" (really more like labnah, which I think is similar to Greek yoghurt). I just put the filter in one of those plastic Melitta filter holders with a fridge container underneath, dumped the yoghurt in, and left it overnight or longer. But the yoghurt was different there, particularly in consistency, and the taste was also a bit stronger. What we get in Mexico seems creamier, maybe more homogenized, so I haven't tried it here.

Kate


Mmm, so jealous. How long did you live in Egypt? I bet you picked up some very delicious recipes while there! Do share :)

~~~~~~ Enjoying life in northern D.F. with our family of Americans and chilangos.
Family and expat blog here : http://threecurlygirlys.blogspot.mx/ ~~~~~~


morgaine7


Dec 1, 2012, 7:34 AM

Post #17 of 36 (56052 views)

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Re: [rayitodeluna] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Quote
Mmm, so jealous. How long did you live in Egypt? I bet you picked up some very delicious recipes while there! Do share :)

Ha! I was there for 25 years, but being single and working full time, I didn't do much cooking. When I'd ask how to make something, the response might go something like, "Mix vegetables in the blender, then add water, ghee, lime, and spices, and cook it for a while." Illiteracy is still pretty high among older generations, and even educated people may learn to cook from relatives who don't read or write, so they tend not to use recipes or measure ingredients. At most, they might say to use "a glass of" something. Once I tried to follow a friend's instructions for tahini dip and ended up with enough to feed an entire village. "Some" tahini paste can really go a long, long way, LOL.

Kate


mazbook1


Dec 1, 2012, 10:37 AM

Post #18 of 36 (56039 views)

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Re: [rayitodeluna] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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The sugar listed on the Alpura container is the natural milk sugar.

Also, the temperatures I listed in my post about making the various cultured milk products are PROVEN temperatures, as I have used all three of the procedures here in Mazatlán. The max temperature is important, since if you exceed this in the various procedures you run the risk of killing off the working lactobacilli. If that happens, the milk mixture won't coagulate, it will just go bad, i.e., sour, and separate into a layer of spoiled curds and a layer of whey. Definitely NOT what you want. If not refrigerated more-or-less immediately after the mixtures coagulate, they will do the same thing, particularly the buttermilk. In this case, the end product will still be usable if thoroughly mixed, but it will have poor texture and possibly be a bit more sour.


rayitodeluna

Dec 1, 2012, 12:34 PM

Post #19 of 36 (56030 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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The sugar listed on the Alpura container is the natural milk sugar.

Also, the temperatures I listed in my post about making the various cultured milk products are PROVEN temperatures, as I have used all three of the procedures here in Mazatlán. The max temperature is important, since if you exceed this in the various procedures you run the risk of killing off the working lactobacilli. If that happens, the milk mixture won't coagulate, it will just go bad, i.e., sour, and separate into a layer of spoiled curds and a layer of whey. Definitely NOT what you want. If not refrigerated more-or-less immediately after the mixtures coagulate, they will do the same thing, particularly the buttermilk. In this case, the end product will still be usable if thoroughly mixed, but it will have poor texture and possibly be a bit more sour.


Ah, thanks for the clarification on the sugar content.

And I dont doubt your temps are correct, merely commenting that the recipes on the internet are all different and it can be intimidating! You recommend using a thermometer then I assume, some sites were talking about eyeballing it and some nonsense about "if you can put your finger in the milk and leave it for 20 seconds" . Which isnt very scientific, as everyne has a different tolerance for heat. There are many of us here in mexico that turn tortillas and roasting chiles with our fingers :)

I will stick with your temperature recommendations, especially since you have used the same product as a starter . Which milk do you use? We drink Santa Clara and on occasion Borden.

~~~~~~ Enjoying life in northern D.F. with our family of Americans and chilangos.
Family and expat blog here : http://threecurlygirlys.blogspot.mx/ ~~~~~~


mazbook1


Dec 1, 2012, 2:16 PM

Post #20 of 36 (56023 views)

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Re: [rayitodeluna] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Since I prefer low-fat, I have always used La-La Light in the unrefrigerated boxes, as it is only 1% butterfat. In my opinion it is the best flavored 1% milk I have ever had. Better than the 1% milks in the refrigerated dairy section.

Buttermilk, of course is SUPPOSED to be low fat (and good buttermilk can be made with skim milk that is only 0.2% milkfat), jocoque and yogurt can be either low-fat or regular but since my preference is low-fat, the La-La Light is the only milk I have ever used for this purpose in México. One nice thing about the boxed Ultra Pasteurized milks is that they are absolutely sterile, so there is no foreign bacteria in them at all, unlike milks from the refrigerated dairy cases which do go sour even when unopened. Even when opened, the boxed milks stay good two to three times longer in the fridge than the "fresh" milk does.

NOTE: I have NEVER had a failure in the procedures I wrote up in all the 15 years I have lived full time in Mazatlán. Eventually (after about 5 to 8 months), my buttermilk picks up enough wild yeasts just by accident that the flavor goes yeasty. Then I get someone coming down to bring me a new qt. of some local cultured buttermilk from NOB so I can start over with a new batch.

I've also used fresh buttermilk culture mixed with local fresh cream to make sour cream, but it's not quite right. I'm going to get someone to bring me a small container of natural sour cream from NOB so I have a proper starter for sour cream and see how it works and what temperatures are necessary. I have a hunch that it needs temperatures more like jocoque than the room temperature buttermilk lactobacilli need. If all else fails, I have some cousins in Washington state who have a dairy farm, and I know they can get me the correct culture powder for sour cream. Way back when I was overseas in university and couldn't get buttermilk, my uncle sent me a small vial of dried buttermilk culture so I could make my own, and that was a loooooooooong time ago. LOL But that's what got me started making my own cultured milk products rather than buying them from the grocery store. I've now been making my own for over 50 years, so maybe I qualify as some sort of do-it-yourself expert. Ya think?

If you go NOB occasionally, one of the big chain "natural foods" grocery stores (don't remember which one now) sells packages of buttermilk and yogurt dried culture, and also has the dried culture for either kefir or kumiss, I don't remember which, but I've never tried that one.

One trick I learned when I was making quite a lot of the filtered, thick buttermilk, was to dissolve as much powdered milk in it as possible (but it has to be completely DISSOLVED) before adding the starter, so that the coagulated product before filtration was already quite a lot thicker than the ordinary buttermilk. Nowadays I don't bother too much with the filtered versions, so I'm no longer do this very often. It does work quite well.


(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Dec 1, 2012, 2:19 PM)


rayitodeluna

Dec 1, 2012, 8:25 PM

Post #21 of 36 (56006 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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If 50 yrs of experience isnt enough to be called a DIY expert, I dont know what is! ;)

I appreciate all of your guidance, am very sure I will be back when I do the batch(s) with more questions. What do you store your creations in? I prefer glass toplastic but also like to recycle the plastic containers the store made yogurt comes in.

Those are very good points about the fresh/refridgerated milk versus boxed milk. I must admit, my preferences may come from always buying milk in the fresh section. This is a good chance to ask - are you supposed to store the boxed milks in the fridge after opening? My inlaws drive me nuts because they always shake their heads at how quick their boxed milks go bad (they drink delactosada so I dont even drink it) but I have always thought it is because they dont store it in the fridge even AFTER opening. As a side note, I have noticed that in several homes - products that say "refridgerate after opening" are kept out of the fridge after opening. Which just seems so wrong to me ;)

I will definately check on the nautural food store next time we are in the states. I guess I could have someone ship a pack or two down, they wouldnt weigh too much dried. I would also like to get some kefir grains, , isnt that the same as "bulgaros" here? My inlaws make their yogurt drink with the bulgaros , but they also dont follow the recommendations I have been told so I want to start my own batch when we move into our place (not far out now, less than a month!) but I dont want to use theirs as a started because I suspect it has gone bad.

Ok, back with more questions Im sure the day I make yogurt/jocoque :)

~~~~~~ Enjoying life in northern D.F. with our family of Americans and chilangos.
Family and expat blog here : http://threecurlygirlys.blogspot.mx/ ~~~~~~


mazbook1


Dec 2, 2012, 9:39 PM

Post #22 of 36 (55969 views)

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Re: [rayitodeluna] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Since the basic buttermilk and the basic jocoque are more or less liquids, I make both in sterilized (with cloro) plastic bottles recycled from the sliced hamburger dill pickles (The very best I have ever had) that I buy from Sam's Club here. I think they are a little larger than a gallon, since I can easily ferment 3 liters of milk + the starter, and on hot summer days, I can skimp on the starter a little and ferment almost 4 liters. These are nice wide-mouth bottles and I both ferment in them and then put the batch in the fridge and store it in the same one I fermented the batch in. Once it gets down to a little less than a quart left, I pour off a cup of starter and start a new batch. When I make yogurt, I make it in wide-mouth plastic refrigerator storage containers (sterilized with cloro, naturally) that can be sealed airtight. Usually only a couple or three liters, each in its own container.

I have seen the same disregard for refrigerating stuff that says "refrigerate after opening" that you have seen. I don't know if the boxed milk says that on the box, but since I always seem to have partial boxes left after much of my cooking, I ALWAYS refrigerate it after opening. Those partial boxes, if capped and refrigerated, will outlast "fresh" milk in the fridge by double or triple the time before going bad/sour. I had to break my Mexican family of the habit, which wasn't easy with young kids. LOL I'm a pretty good teacher though, I taught them to respect the earth and pick up ALL of their litter, and even to save aluminum cans for recycling. Those two things are a major step forward, as they now castigate their friends and cousins when they see them throw trash down or throw aluminum cans in the trash.


Maesonna

Dec 3, 2012, 4:51 PM

Post #23 of 36 (55941 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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For cheesecloth, go to a fabric store (e.g. Parisina, Modatelas, Telas Junco, or fabric vendors in the mercado, etc.) and ask for manta del cielo.


sfmacaws


Dec 8, 2012, 2:23 PM

Post #24 of 36 (55879 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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Well, I strained a container of Alpura unsweetened yogurt last night, through the cheesecloth type fabric I use ( and yes, it is called manta but I forget which type of manta), left it overnight and tried it today. It's OK, good even. It's not the greek yogurt I remember but I do like the thicker consistency. I had it over some fruit and I added a little honey. I would use it for dips and may try some with chopped cucumber and dill. I thought the whey would be good for the cats but none of them would touch it. The dogs drank it though, dogs will eat anything.

I doubt I'd make it very often, it's a bit of a mess and not enough fabulous for the clean up. I should go and look in one of the Lebanese stores for a different culture of yogurt.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




sfmacaws


Dec 21, 2012, 12:24 PM

Post #25 of 36 (55742 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Yogurt and Jocoque natural

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As generally happens to me, once I tried making greek yogurt I found it at the super. I was in Mega the other day and it was right in front of me in the yogurt section. It is by Nestle and does contain sugar. They had natural (but with sugar of course), strawberry and cereal, and raspberry. I bought the natural, it's pretty good. I didn't see any large containers, these were all individual serving size.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán


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