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YucaLandia

Aug 26, 2012, 4:45 PM

Post #1 of 25 (2425 views)

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INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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A good friend just finished his FM2 renewal, taking about 20 days here in Merida, due to some special circumstances.

Oddly, his Inmigrante (FM2) permit officially expired on May 8, yet the friend waited until August 5 to go by our Merida INM office to apply for his 2012 renewal.

Anybody want to make guesses about how the process went?

Fortunately, he has a very congenial Yuca-sposa, who went with him. They arrived at our INM office at about 10:00 AM, an hour after it opened, giving him a #45 position in that day's appointments. (Our INM lines start queuing-up at 7:30 on most days.)

When he got up to the reception desk, on our office's veranda, the INM agents explained that he would owe roughly $62 pesos per day in late fees, roughly $12,000 pesos, and that with #45, he would have to wait out in the heat (typically for an hour) until his turn came up.

As the friend sat, waiting patiently, his wife waited until there was a quiet moment at the INM reception desk, and then explained to the reception agent that her husband had a lot of back pain, and could not sit comfortably for long periods.

The INM agents waved him (and her) on inside into the air conditioned waiting room. Next, an agent came up to them in a little bit, and asked to see his stub for the #45. They took his low priority chit, and exchanged it for .... #1.

When the next INM agent came into the air conditioned area, looking for #28, the friend held up his #1 chit, and they gently escorted him into the office. He finished the initial application and interview, leaving the office in under an hour, and went back home.

After monitoring the INM website for notices re the status of his application, they were instructed to returned to the INM office about a week later. Part of one form he received showed late fees of over $12,000 pesos, yet in a box lower on the form, it only showed "20 dias" of being expired, and ended with a total of a little over $1,200 pesos of late fees.

???

I know that many expats regularly report about how poorly Mexican systems work, rant about corruption, intransigence & incompetence of Mexican government officials, and fume about how Mexican INM and Aduana rules are manipulated and applied to screw foreigners, and to gouge them with excessive fees and repressive & capriciously-applied regulations. Still, each regional office is given a lot of leeway in how they apply the rules, and not every expat experiences the issues that some find.

A working knowledge of Spanish, some patience, and a little honey can go further than vinegar and venting.

Or, again, maybe things are different here in Yucatan?
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 26, 2012, 5:20 PM)

yucatandreamer

Aug 26, 2012, 8:18 PM

Post #2 of 25 (2389 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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So when a friend gets to the head of the line and does not have to pay the fine he owes, this is not corruption? I am sorry I do not understand. What about the person who stoically sat at position 44, did they not have pain?

Why is it not corruption when I take advantage of the system and it is corruption when someone else does it?

Anonimo

Aug 27, 2012, 2:13 AM

Post #3 of 25 (2367 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Quote

A working knowledge of Spanish, some patience, and a little honey can go further than vinegar and venting.

Interesting story. I would agree heartily with the above statement.

Saludos,
Anonimo

YucaLandia

Aug 27, 2012, 6:12 AM

Post #4 of 25 (2348 views)

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Re: [yucatandreamer] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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I guess that kindness shown to an old man in pain must be corruption to some.

No money was paid. No favors exchanged. No quid pro quo.
The man clearly has physical impairments and gets a bit confused at times.

In the wife's telling of the story, the people with higher numbers actually smiled.

In my culture, elders are respected, valued, and often given special treatment, so, I never considered kindness in the form of special treatment to be corrupt.

Is it corrupt to open a door for a less-abled person or to allow them to go first?

Is it corrupt to show mercy, and to impose less than the maximum possible penalties on some?

Is it corrupt or discriminatory to offer to put a carry-on bag into overhead storage for a woman?

Readers are certainly within their rights to scowl and tell old people in pain to go to the end of the cola, and to demand that every person be charged their pound of flesh.

Even though Canada and the US have changed much, compassion and kindness still have value for some.

I still give up my seat on the bus or subway, to allow a mom with a baby to sit. Corruption at work?

To each his own.
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 27, 2012, 6:33 AM)

yucatandreamer

Aug 27, 2012, 7:03 AM

Post #5 of 25 (2327 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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There is a world of difference, to me anyway, of common courtesy and asking for special favors. Having been in that line and risen early to get there I can say there are many people deserving of first place due to old age, mental or physical infirmities. I sincerely hope they all receive the same consideration.

fishfrier

Aug 27, 2012, 7:14 AM

Post #6 of 25 (2319 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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What seems to be lost in this discussion is the gentleman showed up 5 months late for his renewal and at 10:30 am when most everyone lined up at 7:30 am. No effort on his part to try and work within the system. No effort on his part to have any consideration for others by trying to arrange a special appointment over the phone.

careyeroslib

Aug 27, 2012, 7:29 AM

Post #7 of 25 (2309 views)

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Re: [fishfrier] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Nice story Yucalandia.

Btw, Canadians, at least in my part of the country (Oakville, Ontario) are very polite still. I´m amazed when I´m in Canada when I bump into someone at the grocery store, they say "sorry" and then I say "sorry".

Our Migración Office in Puerto Vallarta is pretty nice too, but it wasn´t always that way. But I´m glad it is now. I think it´s a function of who is running it. Most of the clerks are the same as before (it changed sometime in 2009) , but there is a different Jefe. The culture has changed from "early tin pot dictatorship" to "courteous and helpful". Night to day. I¨m sure they would have done the same as in your story.

YucaLandia

Aug 27, 2012, 8:14 AM

Post #8 of 25 (2297 views)

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Re: [fishfrier] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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In Reply To

Wow, do you really know what efforts he made to try to work within the system?

Do you know his history of working with the local INM office and other Mexican government agencies?

Is tolerance no longer a virtue?

In some places we are just numbered ciphers, treated with blind "equity", processed like cattle in a slaughterhouse - each politely waiting our turn - While instead, after just a few years here, the INM agents at our local office were on a first name basis with me - responding with gentle smiles - allowing me to drop back into their office hours after closing-time, so I can drop off documents & proofs of payment.

Just like love and hate are two sides of the same coin, judgmentalism & control are on the opposite side of the coin of kindness, compassion, and mercy.

I am sure that critics are very good at being right, and that they meticulously mete out control and "justice" on others.
I simply prefer a kinder, gentler world.

Health and help to all who seek it.
Mitakuye oyasin.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 27, 2012, 8:37 AM)

RickS

Aug 27, 2012, 8:31 AM

Post #9 of 25 (2289 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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When I first read this Post I just knew it was going to turn into something else......

La Isla

Aug 27, 2012, 8:36 AM

Post #10 of 25 (2284 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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In Reply To

Wow, do you really know what efforts he made to try to work within the system?

Do you know his history of working with the local INM office and other Mexican government agencies?

Yucalandia, do you know why this guy waited 5 whole months to renew his visa? In your first post you wrote it was "odd" that he waited so long. Since he an older gentleman who, as you wrote, gets a bit confused at times, I wonder why his didn't wife see to it that he got to INM on time. I think it's lovely to give special consideration to older people or others with physical limitations, but it does sound as though your friend got away with paying a much lower fine than he should have. Just my opinion, of course.

(This post was edited by La Isla on Aug 27, 2012, 8:38 AM)

YucaLandia

Aug 27, 2012, 8:48 AM

Post #11 of 25 (2280 views)

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Re: [La Isla] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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There is a lot of variability in how things work at INM (which was one point of the original post).

In other parts of Mexico, local/regional INM offices cap late fees at $6000 pesos. Yet other offices refuse to renew any permit that is more than 60 days beyond the expiration date. I know of one case this year, where on the face of things, the applicant was 5 days late in applying to renew, and instead they were given 12 days to leave Mexico, and re-enter under a new FMM - a judgment meted out by the same office that showed tolerance this time. The applicant that had to go to Belize, did have a habit of getting nervous and pushy in dealing with Mexican bureaucrats, and they did tell him that if he did not calm down, he would have to leave and not return.

The outcomes may depend on our approaches and reactions.
I personally am grateful when I see things work well for others.
The sound of slot machines paying-off makes me happy - not envious nor upset at someone else's good fortune.

Smiles and graciousness may be the one currency that is accepted across the world.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

sioux4noff

Aug 27, 2012, 9:12 AM

Post #12 of 25 (2268 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Turned out well for your friend. Hopefully, the office shows just as much courtesy and compassion to others, even those without Yuca-sposas.
After all, the immigration office exists to work with, wait for it..... immigrants. Some of whom do not have Mexican spouses, some may not speak Spanish well, but all should be entitled to be treated with equal respect.

When I recently went to renew my FM2, I got a number in line. I left and went home, figuring to return before my number was called. When I returned about 90 minutes later, they were 2 numbers past mine. (I was #75) I was told that if they were past the number, you had to take a new number so I did. As did several other people, and actually I would not have been very happy it if others had been allowed to proceed with a lower number. Especially one that much lower.
If the office people wanted to give someone special treatment, discretion would be appreciated.

(This post was edited by sioux4noff on Aug 27, 2012, 9:22 AM)

YucaLandia

Aug 27, 2012, 9:18 AM

Post #13 of 25 (2267 views)

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Re: [La Isla] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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I had the same questions as he told the story.

I can only guess as to why, because he acted sheepishly when describing that part, and I think I saw shades of embarrassment coloring his story. I did not want to push the issue, as I suspect that he forgot, and then he noticed that he was late, he felt bad about forgetting ... and procrastinated?? Hence, my comment about his situation being "odd".

I saw no need to scold him, judge him, nor to try to control him, so, it took the story at face value: He was pitiful, humble, needed help, and some people at INM took pity on him and were kind and tolerant.

On the other side of the coin: pushy approaches can get pushy responses, where some people simply reflect back what others broadcast.

Yucatecans are known for blending an interesting combination of extreme politeness and quiet determination. A wise Argentinian married to a Yucateco noted that while being incredibly polite, they really can be Yucatercos. One (racist?) dicho here says: " Cuando el indio dice "ma", es "ma"... " (a.k.a. Don't push things.)

"Ma" means "no" in Yucatec Maya. Ironically, Yucatec Maya has no simple word for "yes"... They use "bey" as an affirmative reply, but "bey" really more closely means that they are affirming that they heard and understand you. Just as Yucatecan spoken Spanish is peppered with Maya words, their attitudes are also subtley affected. As a result, if you back a Yucatecan into a corner, to lever out some agreement, when that Yucatecan orally agrees to do what you have proposed, they often find later ways to wriggle out, like fish scooting off into the shallows.

Does this make them unreliable and capricious? or Are their behaviors predictable - where they appreciate and generally give long term rewards for graciousness and humility, and occasionally punish petty-ness and manipulation?

Yucatan was isolated from the rest of Mexico for 400 years, requiring fairly long boat trips to get here. Yucatan applied to become a US state at one point. We are the only state with an official flag (the red signifying blood shed for our 50 years of independence from Mexico during the Caste Wars), and many Yucatecans self-identify as Yucatecan first and Mexican second. All of which is partly why I made the original post, because I suspect that some things are different here. Gentleness and humility are often rewarded, while they resist hubris & control - with classic passive-aggressive responses to pushy behavior. or maybe these are qualities found across Mexico?

Smile and nod publicly, while quietly planning how to not give the pushy person what they want???
Very much like traditional US Southerners, and Southern Germans - very polite in public, religious, conventional and traditional, considered a little provincial (simple and backward) by their northern "city-folk" brethren ?
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 27, 2012, 9:26 AM)

sioux4noff

Aug 27, 2012, 9:25 AM

Post #14 of 25 (2263 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Your description of Yucatecas sounds like a description of most Mexicans to me.

In my opinion, he would have shown much more humility by waiting like he should have, and not having his wife intervene for him, at a pretty belated date.

YucaLandia

Aug 27, 2012, 9:28 AM

Post #15 of 25 (2262 views)

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Re: [sioux4noff] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Good points,

His wife is the humble one and polite one. He was feeling sheepish and humble this time around. He did not ask her to intervene. He was happy to sit and wait, and expected to pay steep fines.
She is both polite and strong, valuing peace and harmony.

Do most readers find traditional US Southerners to be the same as northern city-folk?
They share some qualities - where you can find polite Midwesterners, etc, but just like a polite Georgia-boy or Mississippian will nod and smile, the Yucatecos do things a bit differently.

There is a classic TV interview where some brassy bottle-blonde reporter from NYC pops down to Georgia to interview Miss Lillian in her home.

About halfway through the interview, following a series of rude pushy questions, the reporter brusquely asked about "Southern Hospitality" and whether Southerners really are different from other parts of America. Miss Lillian sweetly replied: "Remember when you entered my home, and I asked how your flight was? I really didn't care at all." "Remember how I commented about how pretty your dress was? I actually thought was was a horrid shade of yellow."

So, yes, following the very old dicho from Spain ("as polite as a Mexican Indian"), Mexicans are generally more polite than Canadians and US citizens, but in some circles, Yucatecans often take it to a whole other level.

Do other sub-cultures in Mexico value peace and harmony and work to create them? Very very conflict-averse?
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 27, 2012, 10:18 AM)

cbviajero

Aug 27, 2012, 10:06 AM

Post #16 of 25 (2244 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Why should someone who doesn't comply with the law and goes to renew his FM2 three months after it expired get special treatment,I've waited many an hour in the GDL INM and don't appreciate line jumpers.

YucaLandia

Aug 27, 2012, 10:21 AM

Post #17 of 25 (2233 views)

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Re: [cbviajero] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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I never said that he should get special treatment.

I personally am grateful and happy when I see things work well for others.
The sound of slot machines paying-off makes me happy - neither envious nor annoyed at someone else's good fortune.

Different strokes for different folks.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Aug 27, 2012, 12:16 PM)

careyeroslib

Aug 27, 2012, 11:23 AM

Post #18 of 25 (2222 views)

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Re: [RickS] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Good one Rick but when I read Yucalandia´s little story, I just smiled and thought, "That´s nice. Sweet anecdote. He´s just trying to brighten our day".

Reefhound

Aug 27, 2012, 2:58 PM

Post #19 of 25 (2184 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Nice story and a positive outcome. As I read it I was not clear as to whether the man was really in a lot of pain or the wife just made up a story to get special treatment. Or maybe I'm just too cynical and the latter never really happens... good to know this was not the case.

YucaLandia

Aug 27, 2012, 3:01 PM

Post #20 of 25 (2182 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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He's in pain most/much of the time. Pain after standing very long, pain when sitting too long, pain getting up, etc.
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

rockydog85251

Aug 27, 2012, 3:02 PM

Post #21 of 25 (2182 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Not really on the subject of renewals BUT at the time of voting here in Comala.......they allowed the "seniors" to to the head of the line to vote - no matter when they showed up or how long you had been waiting.....i think a nice custom but then driving here & arriving at an intersection without lights, it is " uno y uno"....also nice......
Willie

sioux4noff

Aug 27, 2012, 3:53 PM

Post #22 of 25 (2165 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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At times when I've been at the immigration office, there have been people with walkers, moms with small kids, and other people who if it was a grocery check-out line I might have given my turn to. But with only a very few clerks in the office, and the relatively long time each transaction takes, allowing them all to step ahead would make for a very long day. I guess what I'm saying is that it's more than just a one-off situation to have a speical needs type case in the office.
If it is truly an ordeal to follow the normal procedure, I think many people would hire an agent to do the process for them.

mcm

Aug 27, 2012, 4:09 PM

Post #23 of 25 (2163 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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While it's nice (but not exactly unknown) that Migración accommodates people with problems, I tend to agree that Yucalandia's initial presentation showed little awareness of the impact on other clients. While I imagine Yucalandia's intent was just to show that INM people can be helpful and flexible, those of us who live in Mérida, and have to either get to the office by 7am and wait two hours, or get their later and wait two or more hours outside in the heat may find this story somewhat less charming than others.

More to the point, if someone has a disability or other problem, it is very easy to designate a person to do all of the initial steps. For example, the late-renewal guy's wife could have gone down and made the renewal application, explained the circumstances, etc. I did this for my elderly mother, and typically do the initial trips for my non-Spanish-speaking husband. Now with the online application form, you can do this on the initial online application -- no need for a separate authorization letter.

At the time that the visa renewal is approved, an appointment is made (by the designated person, who must go to the INM office to do this), and the applicant just has to show up for that appointment. In Mérida, that typically means go directly to the air-conditioned waiting room, then to the office.

Yucalandia might want to explain this procedure to his friend (or his friend's wife), so that the next time they can avoid annoying other clients, or having the very nice people at Migración make an exception because of the applicant's cluelessness.

I have also heard, though not confirmed this directly with INM in Mérida, that if a person is physically unable to come to the office, INM will go to their home to take fingerprints, get signatures, etc. Obviously someone else (spouse, friend, paid facilitator) would need to manage photographs and the initial application.

careyeroslib

Aug 27, 2012, 4:55 PM

Post #24 of 25 (2145 views)

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Re: [mcm] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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Mira. Let´s not blame the victims here.

Nobody should have to wait too long.

There were big changes made in the Puerto Vallarta office between 2009 and 2010.

1. They now have a separate line for gestores (agents). So, paid agents can no longer monopolize the process. The wait time is almost nothing.

2. They have a woman at the entrance (in our case it is downstairs) who checks all your documents before you get in line. She will write your letters, tell you what you need, etc. She is really good.

This kind of transformation didn´t just happen. We fought for it. Not just foreigners, but former employees and managers fought for this change too.

sioux4noff

Aug 28, 2012, 12:02 AM

Post #25 of 25 (2103 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] INM Variations ~ Late Fees and other "Rules" ~ Yucatan Style

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The office in Bucerias works pretty efficiently. The wait can be kind of long depending on what is happening that particular day. I've never had to wait what I would deem an excessive length of time. I think it would be nice if they had a means to differentiate people appying for documents and those just there to pick them up. But overall, the amount of time per year I spend there is minimal. And I have always found the employees to be polite and helpful.