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alex .

Nov 19, 2002, 7:38 AM

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hot water floor heating

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Up here at the Frontera it gets just plain cold in the winter. Our 30 amp electrical service (15A for all lighting, 15A for all outlets) is just enough to run one small space heater and no more. I have seen in the US on those home show programs a technique of recirculating hot water thru copper tubing embedded in the floor. What ever happened to that approach & has anyone tried it? Seems like an easy way to go with the poured floors and all. Cost of gas to do the heating of the water?
Alex


(This post was edited by alex in TJ on Nov 19, 2002, 7:40 AM)



keith

Nov 19, 2002, 8:23 AM

Post #2 of 14 (3919 views)

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Re: [alex in TJ] hot water floor heating

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Some things to keep in mind, Alex: first you have to make the water hot--do you have an efficient way of heating water? If you are planning on heating it with the sun, remember, heat rises, so if you want to get that hot water under the floor, you may need a pump to do it. Poured floors do some settling and cracking. Whatever tubing you install has to be able to withstand that.

(This post was edited by jean on Nov 30, 2002, 1:28 PM)


alex .

Nov 19, 2002, 3:40 PM

Post #3 of 14 (3906 views)

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Re: [keith] already have a poured floor

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was thinking of laying down the tubing and pouring concrete on top. I don't want to make a false wood floor as roaches take up residence in anything wooden.
Alex


arbon

Nov 19, 2002, 4:36 PM

Post #4 of 14 (3888 views)

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Re: [alex in TJ] already have a poured floor

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Alex

Have a look at hot water "Perimeter" heating,you can DIY.

It is way more cost effective than slab heating.

Bill.


_Howard_

Nov 19, 2002, 4:39 PM

Post #5 of 14 (3882 views)

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Re: [alex in TJ] already have a poured floor

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The guys on "This Old House" (TOH) really like hot water floor heating system. On all the TOH shows I've seen, the tubing is plastic (avoids stress on rigid pipe due to floor settling). I don't think the heater is cheap. The best ones seem to come from Europe (probably Germany). Try this link for TOH, I'm sure they have information: http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/. Keith is correct, you have to pump the water.


Rolly / Moderator


Nov 19, 2002, 7:47 PM

Post #6 of 14 (3869 views)

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Re: [alex in TJ] hot water floor heating

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Hi Alex,

Take a look at this website dedicated to solar energy things in Mexico: http://www.mexicosolar.com/energy/index.html

Rolly Pirate


Gary sculptari

Nov 20, 2002, 11:00 AM

Post #7 of 14 (3863 views)

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Re: [alex in TJ] already have a poured floor

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Alex Buddy!

I think the caveat (can I speak latin to a latino?) is that if the slab ever cracks, and one of the pipes/tubes ever breaks, then you will have a major repair on your hands. You have to understand how to design expansion joints in the slab, or, heavily reinforce with steel and/or fiber. For these reasons, there is usually a form, like a waffle iron pattern, on top of the curing concrete. The tubing is run between the waffles - you can concentrate the heat on needed places - like your favorite chair- and then the floor sits on top. The only great advantage of this technique in your climate is that in the hot months, you could run the water through a big 'radiator' heat exchange contraption, at night, and the water would cool the slab and the house without expensive air conditioners.

If you really want to get fancy, there is a point somewhere underneath your house (very deep), where a tank full of water will stay at a constant temperature of 60 degree farenheit.


alex .

Nov 20, 2002, 1:50 PM

Post #8 of 14 (3850 views)

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Re: [Gary sculptari] waffling on the idea

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Maybe the perimeter H20 is the way to go. I forgot to mention that I'm on the 3rd floor of a 5 story structure. Its all concrete. So I have no roof access for solar panels, nor basement for storage, nor yard where I would want to put anything that has a value greater than about four cents. Can't run wires or tubing up, down or sideways. Talk about constraining the experiment space!
Alex


arbon

Nov 20, 2002, 2:41 PM

Post #9 of 14 (3831 views)

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Re: [alex in TJ] waffling on the idea

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http://www.cetsolar.com/heat.htm

http://www.mexconnect.com/...y;so=ASC;guest=68899

Alex,I think you know your way around an Auto Junk yard,Have a look at "Heater Cores"

(the ones that are easy to get at & large),you can figure on 1 under each window.


krj1

Nov 20, 2002, 10:20 PM

Post #10 of 14 (3823 views)

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Re: [alex in TJ] hot water floor heating

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Check on catalytic propane heaters,very efficient and no vent needed.Do a web search using catalytic heater as the search term. Ken


keith

Nov 21, 2002, 8:17 AM

Post #11 of 14 (3803 views)

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Post deleted by jean |
 


alex .

Nov 22, 2002, 9:59 AM

Post #12 of 14 (3787 views)

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Re: [keith] some good suggestions here

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Heater cores backed with a low current blower for circulation, or propane fired heaters. I've tried electric blankets, but they don't last. Come to think of it, light bulbs don't last very long either.
I was thinking of floor heating at first, imagining it would "take the chill off", though I don't know how to exactly describe that.
Thank goodness my English is more gooder than my geography!
Thanks all,
Alex


Papirex


Nov 27, 2002, 10:04 PM

Post #13 of 14 (3759 views)

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Re: [alex in TJ] waffling on the idea

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Hot water heating is not really practical in the conditions you have described for your apartment. I have installed many of these systems, and done maintenance on them when they malfunctioned. I also had this type of heat in my house in Alaska, many homes do there. It is a good, and efficient type of heat.

You won't begin to get enough heat from a domestic hot water heater, which will only produce hot water at a maximum of about 120° F. You need a heater specifically designed for the task. They are nominally called "boilers", although they are not really boilers but heaters. They do not boil the water to produce steam. We usually set the heater to produce 190° F. to have enough heat to do the job.

The heaters are about 3' high X 3' long, and 2' wide. They are heavy, the heat exchangers in them are made of cast iron, they usually weigh between 200 and 300 pounds. They require a lot of combustion air, that is, the air required to maintain a flame at the burners. If you tried to set one up in living quarters, you would not have enough oxygen to breathe in a very few minutes. An atmosphere of less than 19 % oxygen will not support life.

You would need to build an air tight closet and install the heater in it. You would need to cut two openings in an outside wall, at the top and bottom of this compartment for combustion air. Requirements vary with each heater, but about two square feet for each opening is what would be required. The specs for this will be included with any new heater.

These heaters require 15 PSI of water pressure to function. We used to install a water pressure reducing valve on them in The US, here it would be a problem to get water pressure that high in most places. An external circulation pump is required. At least one room thermostat will also be needed, more if you have more than one heating zone. There are several controls built in to the units, high and low temperature thermostats, low water cutoff, etc. Electrical power to the unit is required.

I won't go in to the differences between standard 71 % efficiency units, and the high 91 - 93 % efficiency units, except to advise to stay away from the high efficiency units. They are very high tech, troublesome to maintain, and not worth the hassle.

I think it would be risky to pour another layer on an existing concrete floor in a multistory building in Mexico. Since a new layer would not add any structural strength, only additional weight for the original floor to carry. A floor poured with a proper mix of concrete, and properly reinforced WILL NOT crack. If it is poured on grade, and the ground was properly prepared, gravel bed etc. IT WILL NOT crack. The key here is getting a proper mix.

As to baseboard heat, forget the radiator cores and fans. Very efficient fin tubed baseboard units are available. They are usually 3/4 copper tubes with fins on them. The covers allow air to enter at the bottom, and rise through the top. There are adjustable louvers at the top to regulate the amount of air leaving them.

A catalytic heater might be a problem too. While they need no flue, and produce no toxic fumes, they do require combustion air. You will need to leave a window open for safety. I have one I used to use when hunting, or camping. It has a warning to use it in a well ventillated space. They all have this warning on them. Again, if you don't have ventilation, you may not have any oxygen to breath after a period of time.

I hate to throw cold water on your idea. Under the conditions you have described in your building, I think the obstacles are virtually insurmountable.

Incidentally if you are having trouble with light bulbs burning out too soon, etc. you might want to check the voltage in your apartment. Here in Cuernavaca we have a chronic problem with low voltage at night, when all the street lights come on, and all the businesses light up. During the day, we have between 119 and 121 volts. At night, we have between 97 and 107 volts. I just checked, and right now we have 102 volts. At 101 volts, my UPS power supply shuts my computer down. Low voltage will do more harm to electrical equipment than a high voltage spike will usually.

Of course if you do find that you have a low voltage problem there won't be a damn thing you can do about it, but at least you will have something to gripe about. I do that all the time. (It doesn't help a bit.)

Rex
"The supreme happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved" - Victor Hugo


alex .

Nov 30, 2002, 8:06 AM

Post #14 of 14 (3737 views)

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Re: [RexC] throwing cold water on the idea

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Well, infrastucture seems to be the problem all right. When I said that I can't run tubing or wires I meant outside. I can do whatever I want to inside. The entire apartment is only 48 m^2. The 2 bedrooms are each 3.7m x 2.8m, kitchen/living room is 5.6m by 3.12m (on one end, its "L" shaped) and 4.9m on the other end. The space cut out by the "L" is the bathroom, 2.8m x 1.78m. That should all add up. Off the kitchen is a balcony which currently houses the domestic water heater and a washing machine. It is open to fresh air to the side, but not above and below.
So it looks like the cost for comfort would include a special heater , pump, some kind of filter I suppose, maybe another gas tank + radiators. Hmm. If it was easy , everyone would have done it by now..I'll have to think about all this. Thanks for taking the time everyone, I certainly have some food for thought.
Alex
 
 
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