Forums > General > Living, Working, Retiring

John Shrall

May 26, 2012, 12:21 PM

Post #1 of 22 (3724 views)

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Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Now that it's getting closer to the time when I can apply for inmigrado, I'm trying to find out the logistics for taking my US plated car out of the country.

I know that once inmigrado a foreign plated car is no longer permitted but I haven't found out when the car must be taken out of the system. Must the car be removed prior to applying for inmigrado or is there some grace period after receiving the inmigrado card?

Rolly

May 26, 2012, 12:50 PM

Post #2 of 22 (3707 views)

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Re: [John Shrall] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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It's not just a matter of removing the car. You cannot legally drive a foreign-plated car once you have Inmigrado.
You need to remove the car first.

Rolly Pirate

John Shrall

May 26, 2012, 12:59 PM

Post #3 of 22 (3701 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Thanks for the info.

Looks like I'll be making a trip north this fall to sell the car prior to applying for inmigrado.

Anonimo

May 26, 2012, 1:00 PM

Post #4 of 22 (3701 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Can the about to be inmigrado nationalize their foreign plated vehicle with Mexican state plates?

Saludos,
Anonimo

John Shrall

May 26, 2012, 1:13 PM

Post #5 of 22 (3691 views)

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Re: [Anonimo] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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When I checked on nationalizing my 2002 Explorer it was going to cost upwards of $2,000US. That seems like a lot of money to throw at a car with 120,000 miles on it although it would eliminate the hassle of driving back to Texas, selling the car and buying another one in Mexico.

mazbook1

May 26, 2012, 1:44 PM

Post #6 of 22 (3683 views)

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Re: [John Shrall] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Since your car is registered with Aduana, a division of SAT (the tax folks), and your application for inmigrado status is with INM (the immigration folks), you actually have quite a bit of slack. You don't HAVE to take the car out of México before applying for inmigrado status (INM does not know you have a foreign plated car in México), you just need to do it sometime before you actually have the visa card that states your status of inmigrado, because then it would be illegal for you to drive it to the border.

sfmacaws

May 26, 2012, 1:50 PM

Post #7 of 22 (3679 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Anyone think there is a chance of a chocolate amnesty if PRI gets elected? I am also eligible for inmigrado but don't want to give up my jeep. It's too old to nationalize (1997) and frankly, I care more about it than I do about getting a permanent visa. Still, it would be nice not to have to go and renew every year. If there were an amnesty I could put it in a friend's name (a citizen) and either import it from Belize or whatever is required.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

YucaLandia

May 26, 2012, 2:18 PM

Post #8 of 22 (3672 views)

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Re: [John Shrall] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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If you get jammed-up with the timing, there is the "Safe Returns" (Retorno Seguro) program. It gives you a permit to get the car to a border within 3-5 days. http://www.aduanas.gob.mx/...culos/141_10027.html

Info on this, and more INM and Aduana's information are available at: Yucalandia http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/...ing-a-car-in-mexico/
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

tashby

May 26, 2012, 3:15 PM

Post #9 of 22 (3650 views)

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Re: [John Shrall] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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I'm a couple of years from being eligible for inmigrado, but I'll find myself in the same boat when that time comes. When I'm eligible, the car I temporarily imported will be 20 years old, will probably have 200,000 miles on it, and won't be worth a nickel. It might not even be able to make it to the border...though she is a gamer, dear old Honda.

Anyway, at that point the idea of driving it to the US just to unload it is going to be really unappealing for a lot of reasons. (I KNOW that's what I agreed to do when I brought it in, but..............)

I've mentally tossed around a few alternative, slightly more creative solutions for getting rid of the vehicle. They're not hard to think of, but they screw with my ethics/morals so I reject them. The last time I thought about the issue though, I arrived at an answer I think I'm comfortable with. The answer is, "So what?"

So what happens if I'm inmigrado and they find me driving a car that I own, but am not legally entitled to drive? What is the worst possible consequence? If it's that they confiscate the car forever, take it out of the system, and remove my name from it, I wouldn't even put up a fight. They'd be doing me a favor!

Of course, I DO NOT want to risk deportation, or anything else terrible. I just wonder what kind of "teeth" (enforcement-wise) that law/regulation has behind it.

(This post was edited by tashby on May 26, 2012, 3:19 PM)

sfmacaws

May 26, 2012, 7:58 PM

Post #10 of 22 (3606 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Getting rid of my jeep is not the problem, I could easily sell it here in Merida or over in QRoo. I get stopped by foreigners all the time wanting to buy it.

I don't want to sell it and I definitely don't want it confiscated. I've been offered some 'under the water' solutions but I'm not really comfortable with those for the same reason, the upshot could be that I lose my jeep.

I guess I'll downgrade my visa if no other solution comes up before October.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán

YucaLandia

May 27, 2012, 8:41 AM

Post #11 of 22 (3553 views)

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Re: [tashby] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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... prior post lost during editing... fumbley fingers.

Local stories describe a few scenarios that you might not enjoy from driving a illegal vehicle, but to each his own. If you get into an accident, the police (esp. peritos) are known to check the status of foreign plated vehicles with temporary import permits. If the police find anything out of place, they have put the expat driver(s) in jail ("temporary detention") for 3-4 days with no food, etc, until they sort things out.

Some expats report that they found out after-the-fact that their insurance policies include well-hidden clauses that require "current" or "proper" registration to maintain coverage - which then gives the insurance company an out, so they don't pay to keep the driver out of jail and they don't pay for medical or property damages. As nice as Merida is, expats report that even brief stays in her jail are to be avoided.

Another variant of driving with an expired temporary import permit that might be less than pleasant: The police and military do sometimes check the status of foreign-plated expat temporary import vehicle permits. The foreign plates clearly announce that the drivers may be less-than-routine or less-than-saavy individuals - saying "pull me over" to more zealous agents.

We have had expats pulled-over for detailed secondary inspections at both informal retenes and at the Yucatan-Campeche and Yucatan-Quintana Roo border stations, and threatened with vehicle confiscation because they did not have a letter from Aduana documenting current valid expiration dates for the vehicle's temporary import permit. I personally would not want to be unexpectedly stranded out at some rural roadside reten or at a state border without a vehicle.

So, if you have no problem driving without insurance, or you are confident that there are no hidden clauses in your policy that might negate insurance protection, and you are willing to possibly have to walk or thumb your way back home if caught, then go for it.

On a different note: Must we be forced to follow the law and to follow agreements / contracts that we have signed? Must there be some dire penalty, and high likelihood of getting caught, to get us to abide by our agreements? When we apply for temporary import permits, we sign agreements to take the vehicle out of Mexico, or to surrender the vehicle to Aduana if we do not have a current applicable INM permit. Do we appreciate it when other people break clear contracts / agreements with us? Do we appreciate it when other people intentionally break the law? Where do we draw bright lines about what is OK and what isn't, or is it easier to just blur the lines for our own convenience? Some people tut tut over Nixon's prevarications or Clinton's hollow grand jury declarations, but then seem to later join that same herd over issues of convenience?

Did Nixon, Clinton et al really set new standards for acceptable behavior - permanently lowering the bar for everyone?

How do we react when we hear about (Mexican?) immigrants intentionally breaking the laws at home in the USA, Canada, G.B., etc ?

When we hire a worker to come into our home, do we look for the guys who intentionally try to slide-by without getting caught, or do we value people who do their best and keep even implied promises?

Maybe hypocrisy is the new standard?
Maybe it's OK to expect others to do what they agree to do for us, but we only have to do what is necessary to avoid some penalty?
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on May 27, 2012, 8:55 AM)

Sculptari

May 27, 2012, 8:51 AM

Post #12 of 22 (3545 views)

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Re: [tashby] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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My take on this would be that it depends what you look like. If you are an obvious Gringo or Gringette and carrying on as though you 'fit in' that part of Mexico - I would doubt very much you would ever be targeted. As I have said before, an honest cop might purposely pull over a foreign plated car only if he thought it was stolen, or being driven by a Mexican national. I would very interested to hear how many of Steve's 'horror stories' where ex-pats of the younger Mexican American type.

This impression that the roads of Mexico are being patrolled by a team of legal experts, just waiting to throw people in jail over a legal technicality is ridiculous. Considering how many vehicles are out there are driving with no insurance, no title, insecure loads, and how many may contain drugs or guns - they have a lot more things to do than pick on retired folks.

As far as some sort of moral or legal contract, this law was made to entice retirees to Mexico with the comfort of their own automobile. They thought if they required 'immigrant' status, that most Americans and Canadians would balk at this, and pick another country to hang out in. That some would choose to become immigrants would have been, and still is, a slim minority - not worth digging up the bureaucrats over it. The only people who could possibly shed a tear over this law would be someone selling a used or new Mexican plated vehicle who MAY have missed out on a sale. Hope they have a support group!

YucaLandia

May 27, 2012, 9:02 AM

Post #13 of 22 (3534 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Re legal experts roving the roads and the claim that it is "ridiculous" to expect that the law might be enforced:
We have recently had legitimate reports of 2 different expats being sternly questioned and been threatened to have their vehicles confiscated by our inter-state border agents, because the expats did not have current letters from Aduana documenting their current valid expiration dates. These were not bribe situations. The officers did not ask for $$$, and they only released the expats with foreign plated vehicles after stern warnings that this would not be tolerated in the future. We have also had one expat thrown in jail for 4 very unpleasant days because he did not have a cell phone to call his insurance company after a relatively minor car accident - until the police were convinced that he had enough insurance protection to cover the (false?) medical claims and damage claims made by the other folks in the accident.

Again, do we really advocate routine intentional law-breaking by expats (immigrants) in Mexico?

If the expat community creates a culture of flaunting Mexican laws, there will be consequences for the rest of us who do follow the laws. (Remembering that we really are guests here, and that there is no presumption of innocence under Mexican law.)

I personally believe that there are consequences for peeing in the community pool. *grin*

If the expat community gets the reputation of bribe-paying folks who are intentionally sliding-by on even simple rules and laws, how do we get that genie back into the bottle?

Lost reputations are difficult to recover, like downy feathers carelessly set in windy spots.

Just how do we want to be known as a group? Trustworthy or sleazy?

Expats regularly complain about the lack of the rule of law in Mexico - yet they later hold themselves to different (lower) personal standards.

As outsiders, we immigrants are already viewed as less-trusted outsiders, so why add to that burden?

This has made for good hearty laughs over our morning coffee ! Thanks!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on May 27, 2012, 11:39 AM)

Sculptari

May 27, 2012, 9:55 AM

Post #14 of 22 (3513 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Sternly questioned at the (Belize?) border is a lot different than five days in jail. Only Aduana can seize vehicles - again, involving drugs, guns, or stolen vehicles, human traffic.

In your statements, you might also wish to explore the legal status between 'permanent resident', 'immigrant' and "temporary visitor". One of the NoB communities few cultural remnants is the notion that by vigorously quoting some law, all will become clear, as if by magic. It reminds me of the fire and brimstone preachers, quoting the Bible. Or the jailhouse lawyer. On that note, Ex-Pat is a legal status in Britain, if you completely stay out of the country one year, you pay no tax on income earned outside of the U.K. - it does not mean anyone choosing to livie outside their country of citizenship. One proper word for that is emigrant.

The crime committed is 'that your paperwork is not in order'. It is committed 1,000 times a minute, all over the world. This registration problem has been caused by Mexicans buying these 'chocolate' vehicles and then driving them illegally. They are usually a very good deal and apparently well worth the risk of getting caught.

YucaLandia

May 27, 2012, 10:53 AM

Post #15 of 22 (3501 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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In Reply To

Sternly questioned at the (Belize?) border is a lot different than five days in jail. Only Aduana can seize vehicles - again, involving drugs, guns, or stolen vehicles, human traffic.

I have only talked about problems with crossing "inter-state borders" within Mexico with an invalid temporary import permit - circumstances that the OP John Shrall might encounter driving a TIP car inside Mexico with an Inmigrado permit as he proposed - so, introducing inter-national Belize crossings do not fit on either count.

The two recently reliably reported problems had the Yucatan police saying that they should detain the expat's car until Aduana agents come to officially confiscate it - so, splitting that hair still can leave the driver without a vehicle, miles from home. Fortunately, the expats are currently being let off with warnings, but If Mexican authorities find enough expats flaunting the laws, they'll have incentive follow through on their threats to confiscate vehicles.

In Reply To

In your statements, you might also wish to explore the legal status between 'permanent resident', 'immigrant' and "temporary visitor".

Take a look at our 6 or so articles on Yucalandia that explore the legal status between 'permanent resident', 'immigrant' and "temporary visitor", based on personal experiences, current Mexican laws, and professional opinions by lawyers, and INM & Aduana agents at: http://yucalandia.wordpress.com/...xico-fmm-fm2-or-fm3/ - to stick to the OPs questions about the consequences of changing INM permit categories.

In Reply To

The crime committed is 'that your paperwork is not in order'. It is committed 1,000 times a minute, all over the world. This registration problem has been caused by Mexicans buying these 'chocolate' vehicles and then driving them illegally. They are usually a very good deal and apparently well worth the risk of getting caught.

This sounds cute and cool, but one local expat who spent 4 days in jail over such matters does not take things so lightly, and Sculptari's description of a non-problematic paperwork issue likely does not fit the OP's situation. Anonymous internet opinions & suppositions on hypotheticals are fun reads, but for reality, check out: http://www.yolisto.com/...n/page__hl__detained and http://jailbirdwhome.blogspot.mx/

Maybe things are different here in Yucatan. Less violent crime and more peaceful for a reason?
Maybe things are different where Sculptari lives or where John Shrall lives, so, I can only speak to how things work here.
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on May 27, 2012, 11:43 AM)

careyeroslib

May 27, 2012, 11:40 AM

Post #16 of 22 (3473 views)

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Re: [John Shrall] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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From Rolly´s site: His FAQs on Foreign Plated Cars.

"My car is dead. I can't drive it back to the border. How can I get it off the computer?
Aduana has a procedure for junking cars. Go to the nearest office for instructions. It's free."

Just as a side note, we recently junked a 1992 Canadian car in Canada for $300 bucks. The price of scrap metal is way down. It was a bit sad as the car had only gone 105,000 km, had had one owner and many new parts. Even though it was still running well, anything could go wrong at any moment, and little things were already going wrong. It was, for all intents and purposes, dead.

Donation seems like a fair and straightforward option for our 4 wheeled old friends for whom a trip to the border would be risky and economically stupid. Hope that is true.

(This post was edited by careyeroslib on May 27, 2012, 11:50 AM)

John Shrall

May 27, 2012, 12:01 PM

Post #17 of 22 (3460 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Quote

circumstances that the OP John Shrall might encounter driving a TIP car inside Mexico with an Inmigrado permit as he proposed

I never said I planned to drive the car once I attained inmigrado status, rather I asked exactly when I need to deal with the car as I approach the end of my 5th year of FM2 status. The answer was quite specific and appreciated.

I'm revisiting the possibility of nationalizing after reviewing an email of possible costs from last year. At that time the estimate was about $1,600US. If I have to make a special trip to Texas to sell the car and then buy a one way ticket to fly back I'm looking at spending close to $1,000. I'd probably take a beating making a quick sale and then must look at spending several thousand more for a replacement Mexican plated car.

Since the Ford is working just fine, I like it and it probably has several years of life remaining, the decision turns into one of cash flow as well as time and hassle associated with making a car selling trip. If I can put off a major expenditure for a few years by spending a few hundred dollars, it's worth investigating further.

Sculptari

May 27, 2012, 12:11 PM

Post #18 of 22 (3455 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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That fellow who spent 4 days in jail had nothing to do with a paperwork problem. He got robbed by a dishonest 'victim' and dishonest police, if his insurance adjuster and lawyer where already involved. He admits that it would have been a different outcome if he had a fully loaded cell phone, with lots of pictures, an adjuster from one the main insurance companies and a good lawyer all on speed dial.

Yes, gringos are treated very well in this part of Jalisco. Some locals might be resentful, saying that tourists and retirees get special treatment, but the powers that be want these dollars in the economy. The biggest problem I see here is when a foreign plated vehicle is given, as a gift, to Mexican national friend. Usually the reason is the person feels they are too old to drive anymore, or they would like to see the vehicle bring some happiness. There really should be a way to legally do this, especially to a charity. It's kind of dumb, because as I have mentioned, the only one who suffers are people trying to sell used cars.

tashby

May 27, 2012, 7:01 PM

Post #19 of 22 (3407 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Thanks for the highly detailed response YucaLandia! I appreciate it. (And apologies to John Shrall if I derailed the thread, though at that point your original question seemed to be answered clearly.)

I think what John Shrall, and I, and sfmacaws are all trying to do is figure out the best solution for each of our individual cases via a cost/benefit analysis. In my case, a few years from now, the value of the imported car won't justify the expense and hassle (and even danger???) of dragging it back to Texas to sell for pennies. So I'm just hypothetically exploring possible options for when that time comes.

Quote

So, if you have no problem driving without insurance, or you are confident that there are no hidden clauses in your policy that might negate insurance protection, and you are willing to possibly have to walk or thumb your way back home if caught, then go for it.

Our old imported car is fully insured. I've had this conversation with our agent before, but you remind me to have it again to make absolutely certain that the underwriter doesn't have an "out" with regard to a foreign-plated vehicle that lacks current registration in the U.S. It's an important point. I will ask him to show me specifically that portion of the policy. Thanks.

As to the second risk, we long ago bought a newer model, Mexican-plated vehicle for our long-distance road trips out and about. The old imported Honda is only used for putzing around town. She's in semi-retirement and has become our second car. There is no risk of having to hitch home from some great distance.

As to the rest of your reply (to me), the morality stuff, I get it. Soy buen inmigrante. I go to every effort to stay in compliance and be a good boy, I swear. You'll just have to trust me on that one. So from my point of view....

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When we apply for temporary import permits, we sign agreements to take the vehicle out of Mexico, or to surrender the vehicle to Aduana if we do not have a current applicable INM permit.

Quote

Yep. And ...because the value of the car won't justify the alternatives, that's exactly what I'll be willing to do. I'll simply surrender the vehicle and hand them the keys. I thought I made that point.

Anyway, I'm still a couple years away from the decision, so I have more time to figure it out for myself. But so far I'm comfortable with that direction ethically/morally.

And finally, at this stage, I'm more interested in exploring vialbe/livable solutions for people like the OP and sfmacaws, who have cars they care about and are worth keeping.

Thanks again for letting us pick this issue apart!

(This post was edited by tashby on May 27, 2012, 7:10 PM)

mazbook1

May 28, 2012, 5:22 PM

Post #20 of 22 (3314 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Sculptari, Your answer, "Ex-Pat … - it does not mean anyone choosing to livie outside their country of citizenship. One proper word for that is emigrant."

You just happened to hit upon one of my (not so many) "hot buttons".

You not only begged the question (what does U.K. tax status have to do with most of us?), you are completely incorrect!
The is NO such word as "ex-pat" (wrongly thought by many to be short for "ex-patriot"…actually NOT a proper English word itself). The word is "expat", and is short for the quite proper noun, "expatriate", which in my Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary is the noun derived from the verb "to expatriate": "to withdraw (oneself) from residence in one's native country."

On the other hand, "emigrant" CAN, but rarely is, used interchangeably with "expatriate", as the semantic content nowadays is quite different. "Emigrant" carrying the burden of meaning of someone who left their native country to live in (permanently) and become a citizen in (inmigrado->ciudadano) in a foreign country, while "expatriate" or "expat" is someone who left their native country to live in a foreign country, either temporarily or permanently, usually with no particular intention of becoming a citizen of (or fully integrating into the culture of) their new country of residence.

If ANYONE is an "ex-patriot", it would be an "emigrant" seeking citizenship in a foreign country.

(This post was edited by mazbook1 on May 28, 2012, 5:27 PM)

tashby

May 28, 2012, 6:30 PM

Post #21 of 22 (3296 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Wow. Talk about derailing a topic.

That would have been a great private message mazbook1.

mazbook1

May 28, 2012, 7:50 PM

Post #22 of 22 (3282 views)

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Re: [tashby] Inmigrado and Foreign Plated Car

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Hey, tashby. The OP's subject was answered and then became pretty nearly completely hijacked, so I just completed the hijack. I thought that "Well, it's already been hijacked and someone besides Sculptari might learn something from my comments, so what the hey!" Besides, as I said, ex-pat is one of my very few hot buttons and his comments set the stage for one of my infrequent rants. Sorry!