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Rolly


May 20, 2012, 9:37 AM

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Here's something to think about

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Charles Bowden is an author and journalist whose work has largely focused on the US/Mexico Border region. His writing has especially centered on the Mexican Drug War and Ciudad Juárez, the border city known as the epicenter of Mexican drug violence. His critically acclaimed book, Murder City: Ciudad Juárez and the Global Economy's New Killing Fields, was published in 2010 by Nation Books. His latest work, edited along with Molly Molloy, is El Sicario: The Autobiography of a Mexican Assassin and was just released, also by Nation Books.

On June 30, 2011 Bowden sat down for a video interview while in San Francisco for a speaking engagement. In his responses he argues the extreme violence seen in Mexico is a sign of a deeper societal disintegration resulting from governmental corruption, failed economic policies, and the War on Drugs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DIrvg8RuMA

Rolly Pirate



Sculptari

May 20, 2012, 1:54 PM

Post #2 of 24 (4356 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Here's something to think about

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I hope I express this correctly. Mr. Bowden is a wise man, and I have heard these sentiments from others, but most U.S. and Canadian commentators fail to take into account the importance of family and community into not only the happiness of a typical Mexican family, but also their physical survival. In my opinion, this has almost disappeared in Canada and the U.S. It has all decayed into a right versus left rhetoric, an us versus them rhetoric. A government of the people, by the people, has long gone, we are lucky people are even civil to one another, and in fact - they rarely are. The 'glue' of a common people, all trying to survive in a leaky boat, is still very strong in Mexico. It is Mexico's secret weapon - and a very powerful one. When the cartels have declared themselves the de facto kings of the country, amassed their vulgar riches, and rule with sneering cruelty - they will find a big surprise. This is what happened less than 100 years ago in this country, and over the past 1,000 years, in 100 other countries.


Gri-lango

May 21, 2012, 3:32 PM

Post #3 of 24 (4186 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Here's something to think about

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My gosh Sculptari, that's the first assessment on Mexico culture that I actually agree with 100%.

I would further assert, the Narcos will be surprised to learn that their money can't buy safety. Once the maternal instinct of this cultures re-awakens from her sleep, no Narco will be safe even if he has bought off all the Judges and Generals!!!

Ever see a pissed off Mexican mom? Bullets can't stop that fury.


Sculptari

May 21, 2012, 3:48 PM

Post #4 of 24 (4172 views)

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Re: [Gri-lango] Here's something to think about

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You will love this story, just in from Ajijic. I am sure Juan Rey would not have problem posting it here. It is on a private area on a forum that must be logged in - a link would not work.

"I received a copy of this email today. Sounds related to the OP. Hope it was true
___________________________________________________________________
this morning at the plaza where is the crossroads of Colon and the Carretera three guys stopped their car to abduct 2 young boys. The kids started to scream for help and out of nowhere over 35 guys came running to help..little old ladies pulled rocks from the streets and broke all the windows of the car and smashed the vehicle from all sides..even little kids got in the action throwing rocks at the terrorists. Someone had called the cops and had they not arrived the three would have been dead as the crowd had them down on the ground (more than 10 to 1) having a field-day kicking the shit out of these guys. A friend who is a contractor arrived smiling from ear to ear as he said for once it was not rumor..he saw it with his own eyes and was practically in tears of joy. He has 2 small boys and has been living in such fear for his family but somehow today he felt empowered by the sight of the community which is fighting back united for their way of life and place of peace. BRAVO AJIJIC!


Yacatecuhtli


May 21, 2012, 7:12 PM

Post #5 of 24 (4113 views)

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Re: [Gri-lango] Here's something to think about

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Ever see a pissed off Mexican mom? Bullets can't stop that fury.


Have you ever heard of Marisela Escobedo (Mexican mom) ? If not google her.....


! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !


Sculptari

May 22, 2012, 9:11 AM

Post #6 of 24 (4011 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Here's something to think about

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Darn you Rolly - you HAVE got me thinking. The trouble is with my rattley brain I am thinking of an old song, from 1967, "For The Love of the Common People". Here's a great reggae version by Eric Donaldson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voUHGQQpRQo


(This post was edited by Rolly on May 22, 2012, 9:29 AM)


Gri-lango

May 22, 2012, 9:56 AM

Post #7 of 24 (3991 views)

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Here's something to think about

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@ yauca

Yes, I have. Very tragic.

Have you ever heard of the difference between Literal and Figurative language?

(This post was edited by Gri-lango on May 22, 2012, 9:58 AM)


careyeroslib

May 22, 2012, 12:29 PM

Post #8 of 24 (3957 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Here's something to think about

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i, too, enjoyed the interview. thanks.

1)re: Maquiladoras. I agree NAFTA and the Maquiladoras did terrible harm. Just to add, as the author of the excellent book, Amexica, pointed out, not only did the Maquiladora system lure people from really poor areas to the border regions, disrupting families and traditional ways of life, many of these Maquiladoras were closed because the Capitalist owners could find even cheaper labour in Asian countries! Leaving these poor Mexican people with NO job, not even low-paying ones.

2) I think that while Mexicans are strongly family-oriented, they are mostly pretty cynical about civic collective political action (and rightly so). At least in my part of Canada, people are strongly family-oriented (Our nuclear family is 8 kids, 13 grandchildren and a large wider clan), but also, many of us--liberals and social democrats, even moderate conservatives-- believe it is possible to unite around a larger cause and achieve results, even small results. I think most Mexicans pretty much think political action is futile in principle.

Liked his positive recommendations at the end of the interview.


AlanMexicali


May 22, 2012, 12:49 PM

Post #9 of 24 (3951 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Here's something to think about

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"i, too, enjoyed the interview. thanks.

1)re: Maquiladoras. I agree NAFTA and the Maquiladoras did terrible harm. Just to add, as the author of the excellent book, Amexica, pointed out, not only did the Maquiladora system lure people from really poor areas to the border regions, disrupting families and traditional ways of life, many of these Maquiladoras were closed because the Capitalist owners could find even cheaper labour in Asian countries! Leaving these poor Mexican people with NO job, not even low-paying ones.

2) I think that while Mexicans are strongly family-oriented, they are mostly pretty cynical about civic collective political action (and rightly so). At least in my part of Canada, people are strongly family-oriented (Our nuclear family is 8 kids, 13 grandchildren and a large wider clan), but also, many of us--liberals and social democrats, even moderate conservatives-- believe it is possible to unite around a larger cause and achieve results, even small results. I think most Mexicans pretty much think political action is futile in principle.

Liked his positive recommendations at the end of the interview."


The factories in ALL areas of Mexico did displace many peasant farmers by drawing them there but since the 50's these rural dwellers have been migrating to cities looking for work[huge ghettos -that now are disappearing]. The main thing is you and Bowden don't seem to understand is that in ALL nations going from a rural FARMING ECONOMY TO BECOME INDUSTRIALIZED TO SUPPORT A MUCH LARGER AND EDUCATED/TRAINED POPULATION IN every country the same exact phenomenon happens. It is a transition necessary to actually become more advanced to be able to support the population and yes there is fallout and will be for some time. This does not mean Mexico is unique or responsible for doing anything else except finishing the infrastructure of ALL the country and educate ALL the children with gains from industrializing. To point the finger in the way you and Bowden do is petty pickings and shows a lack of historical knowledge of the industrialization of the western world.



(This post was edited by AlanMexicali on May 22, 2012, 12:51 PM)


GringoCArlos

May 22, 2012, 2:44 PM

Post #10 of 24 (3920 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] Here's something to think about

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Following the transition from an agriculture-based economy to an industrial /manufacturing based economy, will the next phase for MX be a switch to a telemarketing & services-based economy? If so, will the end result be different here?

Perhaps so, given that Mexicans in general seem to be either credit shy or not credit worthy because their income comes from an informal source. Most seem to have their houses paid for or live in a paid-for home with older generations...although mortgages and credit cards seem to be gaining a foothold here too :-) For starters, a better goal might be to ensure that ALL Mexicans get fed every day.

As far as educating ALL of the children as a goal: no matter which country they live in, the world will always continue to need ditch diggers. Some children need to be left behind to do these kinds of work. The economic returns in getting them a licenciatura to do that is nil, but governments and taxes always seem to be footing the bill to do so.

It is possible to be proud of being a great ditch digger as long as the people claiming to be better/smarter/richer stop grinding on them every day for what they do for a living or trying to create jealousy for the material things they don't have. That includes the marketeers' efforts.


(This post was edited by GringoCArlos on May 22, 2012, 2:45 PM)


Sculptari

May 22, 2012, 4:04 PM

Post #11 of 24 (3900 views)

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Re: [GringoCArlos] Here's something to think about

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I have mentioned before that Maquiladores program has changed radically. The problem was not just the workers but the skilled and specialized managers having to live along the border - it's just not where they, and their families wanted to be. The new program allows tax incentives in wide areas of Mexico. The man I know, was manufacturing in Canada, moved the plant to China, and now to a small coastal town in Nayarit. He didn't want to move to China, and the quality control dropped. It is my impression that this is going on all over Mexico, in small cities especially. Manufacturers are offered industrial land and substantial tax incentives. Mexican graduates, such as engineers and technical specialists are offered good wages which are a fraction of what the corporations would pay in the Silicon Valley, lets say. If these managers show remarkable talent, they can be cherry picked into the U.S.A. and they are mostly willing to go. This is the new 'middle class' of Mexico that many financial writers have reported on. By keeping these industries in small cities, there is less chance of the workers 'jumping ship' to rival companies. Remember it was, and probably still is, the policy of the 3M Corp to not hire any technical school graduates - they were all company trained for this same reason.


Bennie García

May 22, 2012, 4:34 PM

Post #12 of 24 (3890 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Here's something to think about

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The maquiladoras pre-date the TLC, And they were being operated in many parts of the country. Logistics makes the border a much more obvious choice. Before the Free Trade Agreement many were strictly in-bond assembly plants. Parts came in to the country duty free and left once assembled. The products were rarely available to Mexican consumers or were treated as imports thus much more expensive.

A good example are Fender guitars. Fender started building their less expensive guitars in Ensenada instead of Japan in the 80's, but those models were for export.


AlanMexicali


May 23, 2012, 3:05 AM

Post #13 of 24 (3823 views)

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Re: [GringoCArlos] Here's something to think about

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Bowden and his almost drunken like slurring words [could be a medical condition] were to me a definite distaste for Mexico, her people, her culture and her gov't. His speculations and "guesstamates" [skewed data presented as legit] of what was going on and warnings about the future, just more speculations, with unfounded supporting data were nonsense and aimed at convincing others to legitimate his bias towards Mexicans in general. His job is to sell books and articles about what is happening in Mexico using a sensationalistic writing style that appeals to emotions instead of facts and empathy for the future and character of the Mexican people and their country. IMO


(This post was edited by AlanMexicali on May 23, 2012, 4:52 AM)


richmx2


May 23, 2012, 1:14 PM

Post #14 of 24 (3728 views)

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Re: [GringoCArlos] Here's something to think about

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There is no reason a ditch digger shouldn't read Cervantes, or know his history, or be informed citizens. You are making the typically materialist argument that education only has economic utility.

As to manufacturing plants moving "back" to Mexico from China. Transportation costs are much lower from Mexico to the U.S. and Canada than from China (and as the price of fuel goes up, the advantage is greater) and Mexico has an advantage over India and China, at least for now, in that when it comes to utilitarian education, China and India may turn out a lot of stars, but overall their educational systems are extremely unequal. That is, the best academic instutions are turning out super-stars ... who are likely to go to work in the U.S. or Britain or France or Germany... while the training for technicians who stay at home sucks.

Mexican education isn't the best (for sure), but even the mediocre institutions are turning out adequate technicians and engineers. There's a better educated "average" workforce in Mexico than China or India. And, inadequate as it is, there is a social safety net and better labor rights here in Mexico than in it's supposed competitor countries, which makes for a more motivated (and productive) workforce.


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


Sculptari

May 23, 2012, 1:27 PM

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Re: [richmx2] Here's something to think about

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You know it is a genuine pleasure having an intelligent discourse with people who know what they are talking about and see the good things, as well as the bad things, which are happening in Mexico. So many of these conversations, at least in English, are very one sided, based on fear and ignorance. I think La Isla, the teacher, should give you all a gold star!


La Isla


May 23, 2012, 3:16 PM

Post #16 of 24 (3690 views)

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You know it is a genuine pleasure having an intelligent discourse with people who know what they are talking about and see the good things, as well as the bad things, which are happening in Mexico. So many of these conversations, at least in English, are very one sided, based on fear and ignorance. I think La Isla, the teacher, should give you all a gold star!


I haven´t participated in this discussion, but I have read it with great interest. I will award each of the participants
two gold stars and encourage you all to keep up the good work! I especially appreciate the contributions that point up a possible light at the end of the tunnel for Mexico's future.


richmx2


May 23, 2012, 6:36 PM

Post #17 of 24 (3654 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Here's something to think about

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Gosh... thanks, Teach!


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


georgemichael

May 24, 2012, 7:45 AM

Post #18 of 24 (3569 views)

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Re: [Gri-lango] Here's something to think about

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I totally agree with your assessment of the power of the maternal instinct!

When I was a child, mothers (your own, and the neighbors) were to be respected...and feared! They held great power over all members of the family, and the community as a whole!

Yes, when this maternal power returns, to paraphrase a famous line: "Hell hath no fury....."!!
"Don Miguel"


georgemichael

May 24, 2012, 7:52 AM

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Here's something to think about

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A terrific story, thanks for posting! Gives a whole new dimension to the "Block Watch" concept in the U.S.!!

The story definitely reminds of others from the book "True Tales of Another Mexico" - by Sam Quinones. The people of any community have the potential to exert great control over what happens there, and this story sure drives home that point! Bien hecho!
"Don Miguel"


richmx2


May 24, 2012, 10:57 AM

Post #20 of 24 (3511 views)

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Re: [georgemichael] Here's something to think about

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I don't know why people think this is unique. Neighborhood solidarity is the rule, rather than the exception most places outside the "decadent west". Would you be cheering, though, as sometimes occasionally happens, the neighbors lynched the alleged perps? Doesn't anyone remember the undercover federal police officers who were burned to death in a traditional community in the Federal District when they were misidentified (possibly intentionally so) as child molesters? Or the two tourists who had to take shelter in a church (and be rescued by the police) because they didn't speak enough Spanish to explain why they were taking photos of children, and the crowd was ready to string them up?


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


georgemichael

May 24, 2012, 12:11 PM

Post #21 of 24 (3490 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Here's something to think about

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I find it unique, because in most of my years of living in the U.S., people kept to themselves, safely within their own homes. The exception being neighbors who participated in "Block Watch", of which I spent some time as a block captain. In the U.S. you always call the police, they handle the situation. I mostly admire the actions of the people in these small towns. I understand that they have a distrust of the police, and are more inclined to take matters in their own hands; which I have to somewhat salute! Certainly cuts down on repeat offenders! The book that I referred to, "True Tales of Another Mexico" has many such stories of vigilante justice in small Mexican towns. Thanks for your feedback!
"Don Miguel"


Yacatecuhtli


May 24, 2012, 1:38 PM

Post #22 of 24 (3459 views)

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Re: [georgemichael] Here's something to think about

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The people "taking justice" into thier own hands Happens all the time in mexico and with more frequency lately. You can read about it almost daily in the newspaper.... here are some from today


http://impacto.mx/...tro_de_ser_linchados

http://www.aztecanoticias.com.mx/notas/estados-y-df/113943/pasajeros-linchan-a-ladron-de-autobus-en-nl

http://planoinformativo.com/...a-indgena-en-chiapas


! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !


richmx2


May 24, 2012, 6:31 PM

Post #23 of 24 (3406 views)

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Here's something to think about

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Happens all the time in... quite a good number of places on Planet Earth. Which was my point: something done in Mexico isn't unique to Mexico simply because you didn't experience the same thing back in Flin-Flon or Peoria. Even in a lot of the less advantaged parts of the rich countries, people do not trust the police and do not call them unless absolutely necessary (and even not then)... especially if a problem can be solved communally.

Why wouldn't one's neighbors and acquaintances come to the assistance of threatened children?


http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com


playaboy

May 25, 2012, 4:36 PM

Post #24 of 24 (3309 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Here's something to think about

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You will love this story, just in from Ajijic. I am sure Juan Rey would not have problem posting it here. It is on a private area on a forum that must be logged in - a link would not work.

"I received a copy of this email today. Sounds related to the OP. Hope it was true
___________________________________________________________________
this morning at the plaza where is the crossroads of Colon and the Carretera three guys stopped their car to abduct 2 young boys. The kids started to scream for help and out of nowhere over 35 guys came running to help..little old ladies pulled rocks from the streets and broke all the windows of the car and smashed the vehicle from all sides..even little kids got in the action throwing rocks at the terrorists. Someone had called the cops and had they not arrived the three would have been dead as the crowd had them down on the ground (more than 10 to 1) having a field-day kicking the shit out of these guys. A friend who is a contractor arrived smiling from ear to ear as he said for once it was not rumor..he saw it with his own eyes and was practically in tears of joy. He has 2 small boys and has been living in such fear for his family but somehow today he felt empowered by the sight of the community which is fighting back united for their way of life and place of peace. BRAVO AJIJIC!


I have been on the road for the last week and didn't get a chance to add my 2 cents. I strongly believe that the only way the honest Mexican citizens will really be able to protect themselves is when they have the "RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS" Now, all most honest people can do is hide in the homes. Give them guns and let them protect themselves and their pueblos.

What happened in Ajijic is a great story but could have been very different if those kidnappers pulled out an AK47 and opened up on that crowd. that is the story we read most of the time. The only people that have the good guns are the crooks and the crooked cops.
 
 
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