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tonyburton


May 10, 2012, 2:52 PM

Post #26 of 79 (3385 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Respectfully, I entirely disagree with your comment that as far as "foreign posters" are concerned "if this incident had happened somewhere else in Mexico, many wouldn't be the least bit excited" etc.


cbviajero

May 10, 2012, 5:10 PM

Post #27 of 79 (3363 views)

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Re: [don pedro] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Don Pedro]

there is no message that the cartels can impart to each other with any meaning by whacking "innocents". in the afore[sic] mentioned manner..it has become apparent that this territory is important to all concerned. same thing happened in edmonton but on a lesser scale a few years ago.



It could be that they are going for the shock value of a high body count and don't care where the bodies come from.These people are evil.I've been watching the local,state and national news in spanish in GDL for the last 7 years and it almost has a numbing effect,another massacre? how many this time?What a sad situation.I haven't a clue as to how the mexican government will be able to stop this.


chinagringo


May 10, 2012, 5:29 PM

Post #28 of 79 (3356 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Certainly your right to dispute based upon your experience. But I have noticed numerous self centered Gringos from the Lake Chapala area respond by stating on other forums they don't care what happens elsewhere since it doesn't directly affect them! They have no concept of thinking beyond today and projecting where things go from here.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Chapala Payaso

May 10, 2012, 8:47 PM

Post #29 of 79 (3322 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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I did not mean to imply that I didn't care what happens and perhaps you are not referring to me. My position is that I do not care what happens to anyone associated with drugs. I am concerned that perhaps they are recruiting bodies to kill and mutilate. If not, how do they know who belongs to another gang? That is the only worrisome part to me. Time to legalize and regulate all drugs heretofore illegal. That way the only ones being hurt are the users. No more collateral damage.


chinagringo


May 11, 2012, 6:46 AM

Post #30 of 79 (3270 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Be assured that you were not who I was referring to. However, if you believe that only users will be hurt if they legalize drugs, I have a deed to the Golden Gate Bridge to sell you.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



Chapala Payaso

May 11, 2012, 7:22 AM

Post #31 of 79 (3256 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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How much are you asking for the deed? Of course there will be tangential damage from drug users, especially to their family members. But legalization and regulation will eliminate the profits to the cartel and hence the violence. Of course their other profit making business will continue but more resources will be available to deal with that too. Experience from other countries who have legalized all drugs has been promising. I expect that the reslts in the US will be the same, especially given the experience with alcohol.

But my main concern is the rounding up of innocents for slaughter if that is taking place. It is only a matter of time until young children are taken to slaughter as well. My suggestion, short of legalization, was elimination of drug dealers' families with extreme prejudice and declaring Marshall Law on any dealers caught. Put them to the wall immediately. I am open to less rigorous solutions that may be suggested. Perhaps more rehab centers and counseling? Prisons have really worked well but we need to take a state or territory and make it into a prison. Not enough room as it is. Perhaps we should ask England how that worked when they used Australia.

I hear the complaints and hand wringing but no viable solutions coming forth. What solutions wouold you suggest?


sfmacaws


May 11, 2012, 8:19 AM

Post #32 of 79 (3240 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Legalize all drugs, use the taxes to build superhighways, drive semis of the stuff up to the border, park it on the river bank and tell the Americans that the Super WalMart is open for business, come and get it. How they get it back to the US is their problem, as this whole mess should have been their problem from the beginning. Let the US and Canada deal with the fact that their borders are porous and the market is up there.

It's not that simple, I realize that but I am frustrated with the reluctance of the US and Canada to take responsibility for this problem. I'm also sick of them fighting their war on Mexican soil with Mexican casualties.


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Reefhound


May 11, 2012, 8:34 AM

Post #33 of 79 (3231 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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In Reply To
How much are you asking for the deed? Of course there will be tangential damage from drug users, especially to their family members. But legalization and regulation will eliminate the profits to the cartel and hence the violence. Of course their other profit making business will continue but more resources will be available to deal with that too. Experience from other countries who have legalized all drugs has been promising. I expect that the reslts in the US will be the same, especially given the experience with alcohol.


Ok, first of all, no other countries have "legalized all drugs". It's never been done and never will. You can fantasize about that pipe dream for the rest of your life if you want but it's never gonna happen. So might as well move on to solutions that have more than a snowball's chance in hell of getting implemented.

And it's the reduction in lucrative profits that have made the drug war so vicious, as the competing cartels fight over smuggling routes and markets. The pie isn't big enough to go round. It may be necessary in the long run but as you squeeze the cartels tighter you can expect the violence to escalate higher.

Although I don't see how legalization is going to eliminate profits to the cartel. Who do you think would be supplying the stuff under legalization? Oh you might have a corporate name on it but it'll be the same guys.


Chapala Payaso

May 11, 2012, 9:20 AM

Post #34 of 79 (3217 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Reefhound,

Here is an article that addresses the legalization issue.


Although its capital is notorious among stoners and college kids for marijuana haze–filled "coffee shops," Holland has never actually legalized cannabis — the Dutch simply don't enforce their laws against the shops. The correct answer is Portugal, which in 2001 became the first European country to officially abolish all criminal penalties for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine.
At the recommendation of a national commission charged with addressing Portugal's drug problem, jail time was replaced with the offer of therapy. The argument was that the fear of prison drives addicts underground and that incarceration is more expensive than treatment — so why not give drug addicts health services instead? Under Portugal's new regime, people found guilty of possessing small amounts of drugs are sent to a panel consisting of a psychologist, social worker and legal adviser for appropriate treatment (which may be refused without criminal punishment), instead of jail. (See the world's most influential people in the 2009 TIME 100.)
The question is, does the new policy work? At the time, critics in the poor, socially conservative and largely Catholic nation said decriminalizing drug possession would open the country to "drug tourists" and exacerbate Portugal's drug problem; the country had some of the highest levels of hard-drug use in Europe. But the recently released results of a report commissioned by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, suggest otherwise.
The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.
"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."
Compared to the European Union and the U.S., Portugal's drug use numbers are impressive. Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.
The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.
Portugal's case study is of some interest to lawmakers in the U.S., confronted now with the violent overflow of escalating drug gang wars in Mexico. The U.S. has long championed a hard-line drug policy, supporting only international agreements that enforce drug prohibition and imposing on its citizens some of the world's harshest penalties for drug possession and sales. Yet America has the highest rates of cocaine and marijuana use in the world, and while most of the E.U. (including Holland) has more liberal drug laws than the U.S., it also has less drug use.
"I think we can learn that we should stop being reflexively opposed when someone else does [decriminalize] and should take seriously the possibility that anti-user enforcement isn't having much influence on our drug consumption," says Mark Kleiman, author of the forthcoming When Brute Force Fails: How to Have Less Crime and Less Punishment and director of the drug policy analysis program at UCLA. Kleiman does not consider Portugal a realistic model for the U.S., however, because of differences in size and culture between the two countries.
But there is a movement afoot in the U.S., in the legislatures of New York State, California and Massachusetts, to reconsider our overly punitive drug laws. Recently, Senators Jim Webb and Arlen Specter proposed that Congress create a national commission, not unlike Portugal's, to deal with prison reform and overhaul drug-sentencing policy. As Webb noted, the U.S. is home to 5% of the global population but 25% of its prisoners.
At the Cato Institute in early April, Greenwald contended that a major problem with most American drug policy debate is that it's based on "speculation and fear mongering," rather than empirical evidence on the effects of more lenient drug policies. In Portugal, the effect was to neutralize what had become the country's number one public health problem, he says.
"The impact in the life of families and our society is much lower than it was before decriminalization," says Joao Castel-Branco Goulao, Portugual's "drug czar" and president of the Institute on Drugs and Drug Addiction, adding that police are now able to re-focus on tracking much higher level dealers and larger quantities of drugs.
Peter Reuter, a professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Maryland, like Kleiman, is skeptical. He conceded in a presentation at the Cato Institute that "it's fair to say that decriminalization in Portugal has met its central goal. Drug use did not rise." However, he notes that Portugal is a small country and that the cyclical nature of drug epidemics — which tends to occur no matter what policies are in place — may account for the declines in heroin use and deaths.
The Cato report's author, Greenwald, hews to the first point: that the data shows that decriminalization does not result in increased drug use. Since that is what concerns the public and policymakers most about decriminalization, he says, "that is the central concession that will transform the debate."

Read more: http://www.time.com/...0.html#ixzz1uZvvGIf4 Rather than dividding the pie, why not eliminate the pie? Sometimes, like this time, ano0ther approach is necessary.


stevebrtx

May 11, 2012, 9:22 AM

Post #35 of 79 (3215 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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I've been here almost 5 years now and I'd have to say the two most annoying things in MX are topes and this same stupid discussion we seem to have to have at least every 6 months. Legalization - it's a wet dream, get over it, it ain't gonna happen. I would add that when I hear their convoluted logic, I am more than a bit suspicious of some of the advocates for legalization, let's just say I wonder if some have more than a small personal "vested interest" if you know what I mean. If you want to see "unintended consequences" on steroids and in hyper drive - then just think your way through what would actually happen.
http://www.chapalaweather.net


Reefhound


May 11, 2012, 10:54 AM

Post #36 of 79 (3181 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Thanks for pointing out that Holland, the typical poster child for legalization, "has never actually legalized cannabis". In fact, in recent years they have increased punishment.

It doesn't sound like Portugal legalized it either. Your cite says they removed criminal penalties but adds "Under Portugal's new regime, people found guilty of possessing small amounts of drugs are sent to a panel". How can one be found "guilty" of something that is legal? How can they be in the judicial system at all if police are not bringing them there? Nothing said about production and distribution only relief for personal use so how does that get rid of cartels?

I would also caution that what works or doesn't work in one small country does not necessarily transfer to another country. Different scales, economies, politics, demographics. And have often seen the point that drug use rates are cyclical independent of drug policy.

Now perhaps I just haven't thought about the math enough but at a glance I'm having a hard time accepting that "lifetime drug use" rates can change that much in 5 years. Although the 60's generation is reaching end of life expectancy. Your cite gave trend numbers for Portugal but only static numbers for the U.S. Do you have any trend stats for the U.S. over the same period?


Chapala Payaso

May 11, 2012, 11:07 AM

Post #37 of 79 (3173 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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I do not defend Portugal's position. I do not propose legalization of drugs. I do not propose Marshall Law for drug vendors at any level nor harm to them or their families. I ask questions and pose potential solutions.

In talking to the young people here in the Chapala area, the concensus is that the victims were either actively involved in drugs or in association with those that are. Bad timing. I hope this is the case but have no first hand knowledge of anything other than scuttlebut and would hope that nobody reading this jumps from a generality to an individual circumstance.

I still await the acidic critics to propose a solution. Take a stand one way or another or quit wringing your hands.


stevebrtx

May 11, 2012, 11:48 AM

Post #38 of 79 (3161 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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There's only one solution, the Mexican people will have to take back their country - if they want it.There aren't enough military or police to do the job, there is essentially no judicial or penal system, it's up to the Mexican people or they can watch their country fail and slip into anarchy and tribal warlord ruled areas like Afghanistan. Some areas are close to that now.
http://www.chapalaweather.net


Chapala Payaso

May 11, 2012, 12:50 PM

Post #39 of 79 (3147 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Same solution for the US?

Not enough pitch forks and machetes there.


arbon

May 11, 2012, 2:06 PM

Post #40 of 79 (3131 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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sfmacaws
"It's not that simple, I realize that but I am frustrated with the reluctance of the US and Canada to take responsibility for this problem. I'm also sick of them fighting their war on Mexican soil with Mexican casualties. "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jonna, ¿do you think Canada is mostly buying or selling? .....(or bartering)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17963222

(already) "Americans consume 80% of world's (legal) painkiller drugs, and is the fastest growing drug addiction in the US.

Unlike drugs like heroin or cocaine, painkiller drugs are legal. Many are now asking whether over-prescription by doctors is making the epidemic worse."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



sfmacaws


May 11, 2012, 2:38 PM

Post #41 of 79 (3123 views)

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Re: [arbon] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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I don't give Canada a pass on drug use. They are users primarily but of course they are also producers of pot and meth. The famous BC Bud is from your area isn't it Arbon?

There are enough large busts of drugs crossing the border into Canada to make me doubt that the far north is without it's own share of users.

http://www.thestar.com/...ve-toronto-drug-bust

http://www.canada.com/...a/6405602/story.html


Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán




Sculptari

May 12, 2012, 7:23 AM

Post #42 of 79 (3045 views)

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Re: [sfmacaws] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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These debates come up from time to time. They fail to recognize the official strategy at work which is basically, follow the money. Seizure of cash and assets paid for by the proceeds of crime. These are often very draconian laws in that the assets are seized, and then the burden is on the individual how they raised the money to pay for them. The laws of Mexico are not there yet, but they will be this year regardless of who is elected. It is a key part of what is called the "Colombia" strategy. After stepping up the 'ground war' - taking away the proceeds of crime raised millions of tax dollars to pay for it all, and took away all the incentive
no longer active on Mexconnect


stevebrtx

May 12, 2012, 8:09 AM

Post #43 of 79 (3029 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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All well and good and I pray it works. However, I'm always edgy about the "law of unintended consequences" or as I call it the"jello principle". When you try to pin down a cube of jello with your thumb to control it, it squirts left, right and the ultimate outcome is unpredictable. So it is with this "war" and it is one. You are seeing some brutal new traits by the cartels, 23 are killed in Nuevo Laredo, so the Zetas come to the Lake and go shopping for the first 23 they find walking along the streets. As it turned out none were gringos, but that doesn't make it any less heinous. The Romans used it, the Nazis used it and now it's come home to the Lake.

So, you squeeze them, confiscate the money etc. as I've always said, look around at the next best source of revenue, I believe I saw that face in the mirror this morning. I would hope they're smart enough to realize that would bring in unwanted American presence, but then thugs who are willing to kill indiscriminately probably don't worry much about things like that.

I'm not saying it's not a good idea or the right thing to do, I'm just pessimistic about the outcome as it relates to #1.
http://www.chapalaweather.net


Sculptari

May 12, 2012, 1:19 PM

Post #44 of 79 (2979 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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You are right Steve about unexpected consequences. If Americans start getting killed, and the tourist market chills, someone in Mexico will take up what I'm sure is an already open offer, to utilize an army of U.S. private contractors and military "mission specialists". These people, the world's elite experts in surveillance, espionage, torture and assassination - black ops - are all facing the unemployment line with the slow down in the Middle East 'market', and an upcoming vacancy in a secure holding facility in Cuba. They would make quick work of their assignment in Mexico - probably less than a year. Then the question - where do they go next? Does the U.S. Government manufacture another crisis, in another country, to keep these crews in top form? Down the road what will be asked of Mexico as a 'favor' for the use of these specialized personnel? Anybody who doesn't think this can happen, doesn't remember their history well - Ollie North, El Salvador, Panama?
no longer active on Mexconnect


Chapala Payaso

May 12, 2012, 4:16 PM

Post #45 of 79 (2941 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Many scenarios are possible. The level of intervention will reflect how seriously the powers that be interpret the threat. Since the government is also infiltrated that may well be tamped down.

Supposedly there was a sign posted at Soriana today that stated that now the gangs (Zetas?) will be going after the girls. Women? Females? My source was a bit sketchy. Anyone here anything else?


(This post was edited by Chapala Payaso on May 12, 2012, 7:15 PM)


prorader

May 12, 2012, 8:44 PM

Post #46 of 79 (2903 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Don't u get it Burton and Rolly are the experts here, what they say are what U are suppost to believe, Rolly lives in drugland, Tony has written many books so they are the experts, because of that we are to take there word and censorship as Mexican law. Wrong


bronco

May 12, 2012, 9:13 PM

Post #47 of 79 (2898 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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american expats are afraid "they will be next". anyone have a take on this? anything can happen, as history has proven. personally i do not feel threatened by this idea. if i did, i would be in motion to get out of here. somehow folks think they have the power to make "change". go to the mayor, contact the governor, demand the army. i urge americans to stay out of mexican affairs. especially on this level. so far the only americans who have been killed were in juarez, & they worked w/the american consulate.


chinagringo


May 13, 2012, 5:52 AM

Post #48 of 79 (2861 views)

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Re: [bronco] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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bronco aka manny aka susan:

Before spouting off, you might want to get your facts straight? Then again, that has never stopped you before. Only Americans killed were in Juarez?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



johninajijic

May 13, 2012, 7:25 AM

Post #49 of 79 (2835 views)

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Re: [bronco] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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bronco - I really doubt Americans would be next. Although I don't know what our Embassy could/would do. If it were Americans, Mexico could kiss their tourist business goodbye forever. The tourist business is already hurting. I won't be surprised if smaller shops and restaurants close in PV, Cancun, etc. Hotels are only full on Mexican holidays.

And you're 100% correct, Americans cannot get involved. Anyone who thinks they can are spinning their wheels.


Chapala Payaso

May 13, 2012, 9:21 AM

Post #50 of 79 (2798 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Uptick in drug gang activity.

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Please do not let fear paralyze you and drive you to paranoia. Name calling, sarcasm, and speculation should be avoided. If you are going to give your opinion, please state it is that and do not represent it as fact. Only with a clear picture of the facts can an informed decision and a logical approach to the problem be made. As for me, having lived in the area for 14 years, my concern level has been elevated. If this is merely narcos vs narcos thinning out the competition then the major danger to me is being caught in a cross fire. If innocents are being rounded up for slaughter that is another issue altogether. Lets see if we can collectively come to a factual state of the affairs we are dealing with. Like it or not those living here are all in this together and those not living here would serve us best without inflammatory rhetoric.
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