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Sculptari

May 11, 2012, 9:07 AM

Post #1 of 22 (6968 views)

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Do Not Negotiate Clause

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These seem to be some very strange times in Mexico. Cartel against cartel - nothing new there. Petty, but increasingly violent robbery - again nothing new. But mass kidnapping and terrorist acts against innocent parties - that is something new. It is especially dangerous when it is being carried out by soldiers (Zetas) who have received top U.S. military training in 'extraction'. Add to the fact that the kidnappers have very little chance of getting caught, prosecuted or incarcerated - you have the ingredients of the 'perfect storm'. Right now foreigners and seniors seem to be safe - no families want to give up savings for our miserable hides. Pretty soon, now the terror has been established, they will be raising money -for example 20 random people abducted, they ask for $1 million within two weeks for the whole group, if not enough, then the killing starts - starting with those who have paid the least.

The point of this negativism is to remind us some pre-planning and tough choices have to be made. Sort of like the 'living will', we must let our families, friends and loved ones know what your rational wishes are in case you are ever kidnapped and ransomed. I hope many will be brave enough to take the 'do not negotiate with terrorists' oath. This pre-planning includes a code word, which only close family may know, to verify you are actually being held hostage.
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stevebrtx

May 11, 2012, 11:43 AM

Post #2 of 22 (6914 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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I'll tell you this, if 20 gringos get kidnapped, or even 5, the following morning there will be a solid convoy of cars with S Dakota, TX, Ontario etc. plates from here to Laredo and you can kiss this area off economically, it will look like Chernoybl after the big bang.
http://www.chapalaweather.net


careyeroslib

May 11, 2012, 12:44 PM

Post #3 of 22 (6889 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Sculptari, or anyone, was there a recent incident that brought on this post?


joaquinx


May 11, 2012, 12:44 PM

Post #4 of 22 (6888 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Sounds very depressing to me. I believe that this will separate those who moved here because the cost of living was cheaper than NOB from the rest of us. Will you be on the next convoy north?
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.


Sculptari

May 11, 2012, 12:54 PM

Post #5 of 22 (6877 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Here is an English article in today's Guadalajara Reporter:

http://guadalajarareporter.com/news-mainmenu-82/lake-chapala-mainmenu-84/31031-lakeside-kidnap-victims-among-dead-in-may-9-massacre.html

Here is (surprisingly) is the best ongoing forum discussion, although it may be hard to folloow not knowing the different personalities involved.

http://www.chapala.com/webboard/index.php?s=d14380cfa1bcfc4686db6f7fd17fcb70&showforum=12

Lots more in the Spanish media
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(This post was edited by Sculptari on May 11, 2012, 12:58 PM)


Sculptari

May 11, 2012, 1:35 PM

Post #6 of 22 (6861 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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You know I am truly thinking of positive actions which might improve the situation. I am wondering if it is possible to get some of the young people, in the hardest hit areas, into Canadian rural schools. The schools of rural Canada are suffering with a lack of enrollment, Mexican schools are suffering a lack or resources. This would need to be accessible to average Mexican families, not just the talented or rich (they are already safely tucked away in private schools all over the world).
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stevebrtx

May 11, 2012, 1:42 PM

Post #7 of 22 (6854 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Good question, why did you move here? And are those things still as enticing as they were then? Do you feel as comfortable exploring the MXN culture as you did then? Do you look behind you more than before, drive less at night, visit less out of the way places than before?

To be honest I really don't know why I moved here, seemed like a good idea to try for 6 months and I forgot to go home. However, I will tell you this, I have invested over $2K in security systems and cameras that I never needed anywhere I lived NOB. In fact my last house I lived in for 22 years had two ground floor windows with broken locks until I repaired them before I sold the house. I have a 4.5M volt stun gun and pepper spray I never owned NOB and the 5 gun shots that woke me a few mornings ago at the park near me didn't do much for either my sleep or the ambiance and gentility of the Mexican culture I enjoyed when I first came here. Would I be in the convoy? - depends, but I will tell you this, my roots are shallow, my footprint light, there is nothing here that won't fit in my car that will take much over an hour to load - and my rental security deposit? - consider it my "going away" present.

Right now I'm not overly concerned, they haven't started grabbing old gringos off the street, but should that ever happen, then all bets are off . I don't expect that, I just renewed my lease for another 14 months.
http://www.chapalaweather.net


joaquinx


May 11, 2012, 1:53 PM

Post #8 of 22 (6852 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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I first came to Mexico in 1967 when I finished at the university. I said to myself then that someday I would live in Mexico. 33 years later, I moved here never looking back and never regretting my decision.

With bad knees and a weak heart, what I fear the most is falling down and not being able to get to my feet.

I have lived here for over twelve years and have never been threatened. Back in Dallas, I had my radio stolen from my car, the headlights broken at a later time, and the door to my apartment kicked in. Here my neighbors bid me buenas dias, tardes, o noches, rather than the f*ck you I received in Big D.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.


stevebrtx

May 11, 2012, 2:11 PM

Post #9 of 22 (6846 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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With that track record, or your bad luck, it was definitely time to "get out of Dallas". On the other hand we lived there, no problems, we lived W of Austin for that last 22 years, more than once we forgot to close the garage door with my wood shop and tools in the 3rd bay, 2 cars with keys in them and the door to the house unlocked. So, maybe it was just your bad luck, or the neighborhood, but it was apparently time for you to move along. All that being said, I've seen significant changes in the 5 years I've been here and not for the better, so I know you have seen the trend. Several friends who used to come here from CA are not returning. To be honest if/when I have to make the decision to leave it will be with great sadness and bitterness. Mexico and this area have all the right pieces to the puzzle, but if they can't, or won't, put them together to create the right atmosphere it will crash. So, we'll see poco a poco.

Edit: PS, I thought about it some and the last time I can remember anything being stolen from me was a CB radio from my car at a motel in Shreveport, LA in about 1980. On the other hand, I can remember very distinctly having a 70lb antique brass bell cast in 1886 stolen from above my front arch 2 months ago that had probably been up there for 50 years.
http://www.chapalaweather.net

(This post was edited by stevebrtx on May 11, 2012, 2:16 PM)


careyeroslib

May 12, 2012, 4:55 AM

Post #10 of 22 (6762 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Sculptari, thanks for the link. In the interim my friend who lives in San Antonio (here, not Texas) filled me in as part of a note on other matters. We had a death in the family (my brother-in-law) so I wasn´t following news as much as usual. (Nothing to do with this kind of thing of course).

Anyway, for my part, I would like to be a citizen of Mexico so I can help to make a difference by participating in the political process, even if it is only by lobbying, protesting and, of course, voting and supporting good candidates.

I, too, believe education and general better opportunities for young people in Mexico are a key part of a long-term end to all if this tragedy.

My deepest sympathies to all those personally affected, and my prayers and good wishes to all those in the Chapala area.


(This post was edited by careyeroslib on May 12, 2012, 4:58 AM)


chinagringo


May 12, 2012, 10:09 AM

Post #11 of 22 (6687 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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" It is especially dangerous when it is being carried out by soldiers (Zetas) who have received top U.S. military training in 'extraction'."

Misleading statement? This propaganda about the Zetas has been going on for years. Of the ones who were actually trained in the US, how many are still alive today and what percentage of the total Zeta membership do they comprise?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



panama john

May 12, 2012, 2:14 PM

Post #12 of 22 (6647 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Not only misleading, but ridiculous. Nothing but a bunch of young punks who attack unarmed civilians.


Gringal

May 13, 2012, 1:18 PM

Post #13 of 22 (6538 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Maybe. My plates are Jalisco. I'm not going anywhere. I know this is something of a cliche, but things aren't so great where I came from these days; in fact, they're also scary, and optimist that I am, I think there will be some positive changes in Mexico soon. The pendulum swings both ways.

We are, however, more cautious than we were eight years ago. We installed a security/intercom system and checked out the possible entrance weaknesses. We aren't out on the streets at night, but then, we usually aren't anyway. Us old farts aren't really up to the late night scene and are content with daytime activities. Snore.

However, everyone has his/her own comfort level and if the fear factor becomes number one in their minds.....no one should blame them for joining a convoy north.


mevale

May 16, 2012, 9:31 PM

Post #14 of 22 (6312 views)

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Re: [panama john] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Not only misleading, but ridiculous. Nothing but a bunch of young punks who attack unarmed civilians.


Man, you really don't understand what's going on here. I guarantee you you're not dealing with "a bunch of young punks".


esperanza

May 18, 2012, 2:20 PM

Post #15 of 22 (6178 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Not your everyday 'young punks'. Really good article from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...tin-america-18063328

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









mevale

May 18, 2012, 2:29 PM

Post #16 of 22 (6174 views)

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Re: [esperanza] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Not your everyday 'young punks'. Really good article from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...tin-america-18063328


One thing the article did not pick up on is another reason for the random violence against innocents. Sometimes it is to "calentar la plaza". Which means to draw federal attention to a rival gang's territory, in the hopes of disrupting and eventually controlling the 'plaza".


Aaron+

May 24, 2012, 7:26 AM

Post #17 of 22 (5954 views)

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Re: [mevale] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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A worth-the-read article in the May 24th online Washington Post is entitled "Mexico's two major crime cartels now at war." The article supports Mevale's "controlling the plaza" argument.

Innocents are now frequent targets, in order to terrorize the population and taunt the Calderon government, asserts the article. "“What was once viewed as extreme is now normal. So these gangs must find new extremes. And the only real limit is their imagination, and you do not want to know what is the limit of psychopaths,” said Alejandro Hope, a security analyst with the Mexican Institute for Competitiveness, a nonpartisan think tank.."

Not specifically noted, but probably the worst fear of a kingpin narco is neither death nor a porous Mexican jail, but extradition to a U.S. federal penitentiary:


Quote
Those arrested for massacres are never tried in open court, the records are almost impossible to obtain, and most are never put before a judge but sent to jail and eventually released. Mexico’s prosecution rate for homicides is low.


The article argues that the election of front running PRI presidential candidate, pledged more to lower violence than to suppress drug trafficking, could result in particular in confrontation with the Zetas:

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This would put Peña Nieto squarely against the Zetas, who specialize more in carjacking, kidnapping, extortion and smuggling migrants than in smuggling cocaine and marijuana.


Note that the PAN federal government, under President Calderon, has been accused at times of favoring the more disciplined, less warlike Sinaloa gang headed by "Chapo" Guzman, against the Zetas.

( See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/...U_story.html?hpid=z1


(This post was edited by Rolly on May 24, 2012, 8:17 AM)


cookj5

Jun 3, 2012, 5:26 PM

Post #18 of 22 (5605 views)

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Re: [panama john] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Not only misleading, but ridiculous. Nothing but a bunch of young punks who attack unarmed civilians.


According to a 2003 story in the Brownsville Herald, a unit of 31 Mexican soldiers who trained in the US Army School of the Americas at Ft. Bragg, NC deserted to form the nucleus of the Zetas. They started out as enforcers for the Gulf Cartel but later broke away to form their own cartel organization.

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/zetas-54090-mexican-drug.html

They have emerged as leaders of one of the two most powerful cartels in Mexico because of their military training and the discipline of their "soldiers" and because of their willingness to use horrific tactics against anyone who opposes them. The original leaders have apparently passed on their training at camps scattered around Mexico.

That murderous thugs have been trained by the US Army SOA program is no aberration. Over the past 30 years virtually every leader of a Latin American military coup or of a significant massacre of civilians or other major abuse in Latin America has passed through the SOA. All this is well-known and highly documented. What makes the Zetas different is that they decided to privatize their thuggery. US taxpayer dollars at work.


(This post was edited by cookj5 on Jun 3, 2012, 5:37 PM)


Reefhound


Jun 4, 2012, 3:00 PM

Post #19 of 22 (5517 views)

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Re: [cookj5] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Nobody doubted or denied that Zetas began as deserting Mexican special forces trained by the U.S.

It appears to me the "misleading" remark was in reference to the suggestion that most of the violent acts occurring these days are by those members or that the Zetas as a whole are this group of highly trained special forces.

I'll reiterate Neil's comment. "Of the ones who were actually trained in the US, how many are still alive today and what percentage of the total Zeta membership do they comprise?"


cookj5

Jun 8, 2012, 6:57 PM

Post #20 of 22 (5361 views)

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Re: [Reefhound] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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Nobody doubted or denied that Zetas began as deserting Mexican special forces trained by the U.S.

It appears to me the "misleading" remark was in reference to the suggestion that most of the violent acts occurring these days are by those members or that the Zetas as a whole are this group of highly trained special forces.

I'll reiterate Neil's comment. "Of the ones who were actually trained in the US, how many are still alive today and what percentage of the total Zeta membership do they comprise?"


It would appear from their effectiveness in rapidly becoming one of the two most powerful cartels in Mexico that the original leaders are still largely in place or were very effective in passing on their knowledge and skills to their successors. In addition, the Zetas have expanded to Guatemala and have been recruiting former Guatemalan special forces troops, known as Kaibiles, who were responsible for some of the worst atrocities in the Guatemala Civil War of the 1970s-90s. One of the Kaibiles favorite tactics in Guatemala was beheading people to spread terror and there is evidence that Zetas may have picked up this idea from them.The Kaibiles were also connected to the US Army School of the Americas. One of their most notorious officers, Pedro Pimentel, was invited to be an instructor there in the 1980s, after he had committed some of his most notorious acts. US taxpayer dollars at work.

http://world.time.com/...ors-to-drug-cartels/


(This post was edited by Rolly on Jun 8, 2012, 9:18 PM)


Mexberry

Jun 10, 2012, 4:53 PM

Post #21 of 22 (5235 views)

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Re: [careyeroslib] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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I agree that better opportunities for the youth in rural areas will help diminish the violence. Vastly improved pay and training for the police and judiciary is also necessary, as well as systems that require traffic fines for example to be paid at a bank. Bait cars are very successful in cutting car theft all over, so why not use them to trap traffic cops accepting bribes? There are many very good police forces in the western world who would be able to offer training in their home countries as well as in Mexico. Corruption exists in every level of government and supposedly offered by even the largest of US corporations. Whenl Mexicans have the fortitude to say enough is enough, then things may change.


cookj5

Jun 11, 2012, 8:14 PM

Post #22 of 22 (5136 views)

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Re: [Mexberry] Do Not Negotiate Clause

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I agree that better opportunities for the youth in rural areas will help diminish the violence. Vastly improved pay and training for the police and judiciary is also necessary, as well as systems that require traffic fines for example to be paid at a bank. Bait cars are very successful in cutting car theft all over, so why not use them to trap traffic cops accepting bribes? There are many very good police forces in the western world who would be able to offer training in their home countries as well as in Mexico. Corruption exists in every level of government and supposedly offered by even the largest of US corporations. Whenl Mexicans have the fortitude to say enough is enough, then things may change.


How about arrests of people OFFERING bribes. I am always amazed at all the foreigners who complain about corruption in Mexico and point at the cops or other officials who accept them. Anyone who PAYS a bribe is just as corrupt, and all too many foreigners are guilty of this. I'm not speaking of anyone in particular, but you know who you are.
 
 
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