Forums > General > Living, Working, Retiring

playaboy

Feb 9, 2012, 6:11 AM

Post #1 of 11 (4565 views)

Shortcut

To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

FYI. An interesting study on mordida in the Americas

Check this out. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/...ribery-americas.html

surebought

Feb 9, 2012, 8:02 AM

Post #2 of 11 (4520 views)

Shortcut

Re: [playaboy] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

I have lived in Mexico since 1987. I was in a regulated business from then until 2010. The only bribe I have ever paid, and that was through a lawyer, was to (you know who) to get my original FM-3 in the early 1990s. And maybe the lawyer pocketed the money, so it might not have been a bribe at all. I never bribed an inspector in my business. I have never bribed a traffic cop. But I stop at the red lights and stop signs and I drive sober. I study at being a good citizen. I have never paid anyone on the Mexican side of the border either to let me through with stuff. It is easier for Americans to get away with not paying bribes because we can always say, "I could get in lots of trouble with my government if I pay you a suborno, because of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which makes it a felony(deleto), to bribe a foreign official. The Mexicans can't use that excuse. If only you guys could speak Spanish, you could say that too. I turned this into a competitive advantage business wise. One time I said to a cop on the highway that stopped me, that that kind of tactic might work on some gringo who just fell off of a Tortilla Truck, but that "ain't gonna work on me." I will just go to the Cop Shop and pay the 50 peso fine(I was of course guilty of speeding). Make an effort to learn the language and don't leave your brain at the border. Most bribes on the business level are paid solutions to get around paperwork problems. Most bribery involving Americans are drunk driving issues. And pretty soon, there will be no bribery at all on that issue. Just the other day, an expat resident of Baja, was on his way home from his favorite bar and he ran right into the back of a parked Tractor Trailer at 50 MPH. He survived and the Veterans Administration is trying to put Humty Dumpty back together again. Maybe if he hadn't been able to bribe his way out of driving drunk, he might have gotten the message that these roads are kind of dangerous and he needs all his faculties to maneuver them.

Brian

Feb 9, 2012, 10:48 AM

Post #3 of 11 (4467 views)

Shortcut

Re: [surebought] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

"It is easier for Americans to get away with not paying bribes because we can always say, "I could get in lots of trouble with my government if I pay you a suborno, because of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which makes it a felony(deleto), to bribe a foreign official. The Mexicans can't use that excuse. If only you guys could speak Spanish, you could say that too."

I would have said "delito".

YucaLandia

Feb 9, 2012, 11:50 AM

Post #4 of 11 (4435 views)

Shortcut

Re: [surebought] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

In Reply To

I have lived in Mexico since 1987. I was in a regulated business from then until 2010. The only bribe I have ever paid, and that was through a lawyer, was to (you know who) to get my original FM-3 in the early 1990s. ... It is easier for Americans to get away with not paying bribes because we can always say, "I could get in lots of trouble with my government if I pay you a suborno, because of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which makes it a felony(deleto), to bribe a foreign official. The Mexicans can't use that excuse. If only you guys could speak Spanish, you could say that too. I turned this into a competitive advantage business wise. One time I said to a cop on the highway that stopped me, that that kind of tactic might work on some gringo who just fell off of a Tortilla Truck, but that "ain't gonna work on me." I will just go to the Cop Shop and pay the 50 peso fine (I was of course guilty of speeding). Make an effort to learn the language and don't leave your brain at the border. Most bribes on the business level are paid solutions to get around paperwork problems. Most bribery involving Americans are drunk driving issues. And pretty soon, there will be no bribery at all on that issue. Just the other day, an expat resident of Baja, was on his way home from his favorite bar and he ran right into the back of a parked Tractor Trailer at 50 MPH. He survived and the Veterans Administration is trying to put Humty Dumpty back together again. Maybe if he hadn't been able to bribe his way out of driving drunk, he might have gotten the message that these roads are kind of dangerous and he needs all his faculties to maneuver them.

Bribery clearly causes problems, and a 1 in 5 belief that " bribery is sometimes OK " is troubling.

The data presented by the Los Angeles Times unfortunately is missing the opinions of most Americans. The title "Is bribery sometimes OK? How people answered across the Americas" hides the fact that the article says nothing about people's opinions from the Americans in Canada and the USA. If you've lived in Chicago, New Mexico, Louisiana, etc, a 1:5 belief that " bribery is sometimes OK " would likely be a low number.

I am also curious7confused about some interesting perspectives in the quoted post:
" If only you guys could speak Spanish, you could say that too. "
Do we really imagine that many/most people on this board do not speak Spanish, and cannot say:
"Dame mi multa, por favor." ?

"... that kind of tactic might work on some gringo who just fell off of a Tortilla Truck, but that "ain't gonna work on me."
Good for you. All of you gringos who just fell off their Tortilla Trucks should pay attention.

"... an expat resident of Baja, was on his way home from his favorite bar and he ran right into the back of a parked Tractor Trailer at 50 MPH." ... "...Maybe if he hadn't been able to bribe his way out of driving drunk, ..."
Is there evidence that this person paid bribes to the police to allow him to drive drunk, or are you guessing that he drove drunk and had paid past bribes for the priviledge?

I'm having trouble connecting some of the dots you lay out.
Chicago, New Mexico, Louisiana, and other areas in the US are well known for bribing police to get out of traffic issues, including drunk driving. Are all the drunk driving accidents and fatalities there also due to bribery?

Does a 1 person in 5 belief that " bribery is sometimes OK " mean that people drive drunk because of bribery?

Just trying to keep all four wheels on the pavement,
steve
-
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

surebought

Feb 9, 2012, 2:39 PM

Post #5 of 11 (4389 views)

Shortcut

Re: [YucaLandia] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

Of course you are right. Not all drunk driving accidents are from paying bribes and that was unclear, but in this case, this guy had it down to a science and he bragged about it to anyone who would listen. He didn't want a lecture. He would just have a $20.00 bill waiting and visible when the cop peaked into the driver's window. The guy is a real loser obviously. He is down here because he lost his license in the States.
As to learning to be conversant in Spanish, you have my eternal respect if you have learned it, because of all the Gringos I have known around here, I would say that maybe 3 or 4 have learned the language well enough to speak it on a telephone. That might not be true everywhere in Mexico. When I was a member of the Merchants Group of Mexican Business People, they would always wonder why the Royal Caribbean always brought a much higher class than the Carnival Cruse line. I wonder if other parts of Mexico draw a higher class of Gringo and why we end up with so many of these guys? Its embarrassing. And if they do it, the locals might think that they can get you too. You end up paying the consequences of someone else' bad behavior. Around here its like that movie that's playing in the Cine right now called: Rum Diary's with Johnny Dep. They're sitting in a Restaurant and one of the characters starts getting mean with the waitress. I recommend that movie because I think it tells our story really well when some of us don't adapt too well in Latin America. I think it sends a terrible message when we think we can get away with anything by buying someone off or that that's the norm here. And some day you might get somebody you can't bribe and he might just run you through the system for trying. Just being a nice, decent, human being, who is also uncomfortable with confrontation, might be your best defense against being solicited for a bribe. They will feel bad about trying.

La Isla

Feb 9, 2012, 4:08 PM

Post #6 of 11 (4378 views)

Shortcut

Re: [surebought] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

Quote

As to learning to be conversant in Spanish, you have my eternal respect if you have learned it, because of all the Gringos I have known around here, I would say that maybe 3 or 4 have learned the language well enough to speak it on a telephone. That might not be true everywhere in Mexico.

It's certainly not true of my English-speaking friends in Mexico City. Most of them are either fluent in Spanish or are studying the language and making efforts to improve by using it every day. Where do you live in Mexico?

richmx2

Feb 9, 2012, 10:54 PM

Post #7 of 11 (4330 views)

Shortcut

Re: [La Isla] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

But Isla... you run with a better class of people than many of us :-)

While I sympathize with those of us who had the misfortune of a U.S. foreign language education (i.e., almost none), especially in places like where I'm living now that have a large foreign (English-speaking) community, people just don't bother, or seem to think they can pick up Spanish by osmosis, or depend on the fact that the Mexicans they do business with went to the trouble to learn English. On our local websites for the foreigners, it seems the bulk of posts are people expecting to find an "English-speaker" for even the most routine task. Not a good plumber to fix a toiler, but an English-speaking plumber. Not a car mechanic, but an English-speaking mechanic. Not a sales clerk, but English-speaking sales clerks. Ad nauseum...

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

playaboy

Feb 10, 2012, 5:34 AM

Post #8 of 11 (4314 views)

Shortcut

Re: [YucaLandia] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

The LA Times article is a story about a Vanderbilt University report (essay?) on bribery in Latin America. USA and Canada are not included.

The discussion here seems to be centered on paying a mordida to a cop. There are a lot of situations where people pay a bribe that don't involve a cop.

Sometimes giving an official a "tip" can speed up the paperwork process. Without a "tip" it might take weeks to get approvals. Maybe you can get an extension on your Visa with a "tip". With a "tip" your drivers license gets renewed in 10 minutes.

Would you pay the cable TV man 500 pesos to hook you up today instead of next week when your appointment is? How about the giving CFE workers, fixing the electric lines after the hurricane, a 1000 pesos to fix yours sooner than later? Are these tips or bribes.

I have only lived in MX since 2003. My Spanish stinks (I just can't pick up languages in my old age) but I try and it is improving. I have seen that there is no difference what language you speak, if you want things to get done a little grease makes the wheels of everyday life go smoother in MX.

(This post was edited by playaboy on Feb 10, 2012, 5:38 AM)

YucaLandia

Feb 10, 2012, 5:44 AM

Post #9 of 11 (4309 views)

Shortcut

Re: [richmx2] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

Re consistent internet requests for English speaking doctors, plumbers, Notarios, architects, et at: It's tough to argue with this logic.

But I'll try anyway ;-}

Even if one speaks passable Spanish - having clear unambiguous technical discussions on important complex issues is hard enough in one's native tongue. When the stakes are high, and mistakes are costly (especially with health matters), it can make sense to search for an expert who also speaks your language. - or even when you take along a fluent friend.

My personal experience is that I'll listen to the expert's opinion (spoken in English), and then I'll repeat back the key bits to them in Spanish, for them to verify my understanding. By forward-translating - and then back-translating that initial translation, and then listening carefully to their final response/repeated explanation, we can quickly figure out if they understood and translated it well into English, and test if we understood their English explanation.

This process almost always teases out some subtle additional meanings, and often reveals some underlying, previously-unspoken details. As we bounce the English-Spanish-Spanish-English ball back and forth, a more finely detailed final picture emerges. e.g. Discussing the merits and drawbacks of one therapy or drug over another is complex enough in one's native tongue, that I hesitate to trust my less-than-complete knowledge of Spanish.

Mexican professionals who speak English are also frequently quite articulate in Spanish - which means they often know how to describe complex things in several different ways in Spanish - while monoglots in both English & Spanish tend to be less-bright - and monoglots tend to have more-narrow perspectives, don't understand cross-cultural communication issues, and are less able to express themselves in a multiplicity of ways.

Said another way: Bright English-speaking Mexican professionals can be a lot of fun to get to know.
One of my best friends is a Maya guy, who speaks pretty good English & German, and just happened to be the former head of Cardiology at our local university and at a local hospital. He's a charmer, and a kick to be around.
steve
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

La Isla

Feb 10, 2012, 9:38 AM

Post #10 of 11 (4265 views)

Shortcut

Re: [richmx2] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

In Reply To

Well, I don´t know if they're a better class of people :), but they're probably younger than your fellow expats and are here for different reasons. The lack of a decent education in foreign languages is one reason why some of your friends think they can pick up Spanish by osmosis. In reality, they have little idea of what you need to do to learn a second language. And being older makes it that much more difficult.

surebought

Feb 10, 2012, 1:57 PM

Post #11 of 11 (4227 views)

Shortcut

Re: [La Isla] To bribe or not to bribe, a study on mordida

Can't Post | Private Reply

La Isla, I couldn't have said it better myself. You do run with a better class of people and its really an inspiration for me. There is a movie playing right now in the Mexican Cine called Rum Diary's with Johnny Dep. To get the best idea of the characters that I run into, I just laughed through the whole movie, because it seemed that I knew all those people personally. I recommend that movie to the Mex Expats.