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Brian

Jan 31, 2012, 4:43 AM

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Human Rights Watch

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In another thread, I brought up the subject of forced confessions, often by torture, elicited from arrestees in Mexico. That, and other similar issues, are addressed in this recent report:

http://www.hrw.org/...o1111webwcover_0.pdf

cookj5

Feb 1, 2012, 10:06 AM

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Re: [Brian] Human Rights Watch

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Fairly regularly, folks leave comments on this and other Forum sites about the conduct of the drug war in Mexico. Many of these people, IMHO, appear to have an excess of testosterone and a deficit of good sense.

They urge that the military "get tough", take off the gloves, and engage in a shoot-on-sight policy against cartel members to supposedly wipe them out. I don't suppose these commenters will, but they should read this report and remember it could happen to them.

The Human Rights Watch report carefully documents what anyone with a scrap of good sense could have predicted would happen when the military is put in charge of law enforcement and given impunity for its actions.

Axixic

Feb 1, 2012, 10:26 AM

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Re: [Brian] Human Rights Watch

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Didn't (doesn't) the U.S. also illegally torture, imprison, and elicit confessions? How many innocent people did we, the U.S., imprison at Gitmo or render to other countries so they could be tortured? Funny that the U.S. is quick to report any former prisoner who was found innocent after being imprisoned for years is later found fighting against us. Who wouldn't hate whoever kidnapped and tortured us.

joaquinx

Feb 1, 2012, 11:16 AM

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Re: [Axixic] Human Rights Watch

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I was just going to give a similar comment. How can the US issue human rights violations and rating when we have Gitmo?
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My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

(This post was edited by joaquinx on Feb 1, 2012, 11:17 AM)

richmx2

Feb 1, 2012, 12:07 PM

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Re: [joaquinx] Human Rights Watch

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HRW is (at least theoretically) a non-governmental agency (although in some countries, it is overtly political, and is always subject to political influence). That said, those that have just been cheer-leading for the "mano duro" approach to the "drug war" ... or in the U.S., the "war on terror" for that matter... seem to have forgotten the old saw that those who prefer safety to liberty will get neither.

Add to the export of weapons, trucks, helicopters, computer surveillance equipment and all the other goodies the U.S. government is underwriting in its claim that channeling taxpayer dollars to U.S. industries is assistance to Mexico, add "consultants" and "advisers" who are refining the crude techniques used by the police to "solve" crimes.

Once we buy off on the idea that "narcos" are better off killed than coming into court, there's no reason to expect other socially undesirables won't meet the same fate. Or worse.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

surebought

Feb 2, 2012, 10:12 AM

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Re: [Brian] Human Rights Watch

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According to Wikipedia the Mexican Army was 192,000 thousand strong (estimated) in 2008, the most recent figures. I hope I am not revealing a State secret when I give the opinion that it is not even half of that. On my 5500 road trip through Mexico in December 2011, we rarely encountered any Military anywhere south of Sonora. The Mexican Military is concentrated on the border. Why? They don't have the personal is one reason. Another reason is that it is close to the publicity. The real zinger is that the aid package paid for by the US Tax Payers to fund this Mexican Military offensive against the Drug Cartels is probably based on the Wiki number. Mexico needs to show results. It needs headlines to keep the windfall funds from Uncle Sam coming. The secret that Japan and Germany got so far ahead economically after WWII was they didn't have to spend a nickel on defense for 12 years. If they can keep the US funding the Military, its good for everybody in Mexico. Most Mexicans don't care at all about the Drug Cartels or who is getting rich from them. So they don't want their taxes going to fund something that is not a problem in Mexico. They have random Drug Testing in the Mexican Schools my daughters attend. Sure its here, but nothing like it is in the US and the media doesn't make use a big priority or try to shock Mexican into anger. The US cannot have it both ways. It can't fund the Military and want immediate results and think that this is all going to be Jeffersonian due process. This is a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY and nobody should ever forget that. It is trying to send two messages and nobody is listening. Mexico just doesn't want to pay for its own Military(si to transan - no advancen)..

Altahabana

Feb 2, 2012, 12:50 PM

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Re: [richmx2] Human Rights Watch

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those that have just been cheer-leading for the "mano duro" approach to the "drug war" . . . seem to have forgotten the old saw that those who prefer safety to liberty will get neither.

I doubt many people in Tamaulipas want to see the military in charge of law enforcement on a permanent basis, but the alternative is even less appealing when municipal law enforcement agencies are simply extensions of the dominant cartel. And what is going on in the Tamulipas frontera is more like an actual civil war than an extra-territorial extension of US foreign policy. However the situation may appear to those living outside the area, the uninvolved civilian population in Nvo. Laredo doesn't view the military as the bad guys.

surebought

Feb 2, 2012, 4:11 PM

Post #8 of 15 (3323 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Human Rights Watch

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I went over to the Human Rights office as its only a few blocks from my house. I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. Why did the cops use that excuse when I wanted revenge for the people who stole my car. He was this little old White Haired Gentleman whom you could tell was a career Mexican Government Employee who was given this last one assignment before drawing its pension. No private funding here. The Mexican Human Rights Agency is a dependance of the Government. I bet my wife's Humane Society for better treatment of Animals has more funding. You are not going to change Mexico.

richmx2

Feb 2, 2012, 7:26 PM

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Re: [Altahabana] Human Rights Watch

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I'm talking more about the cheer-leaders on forums like this... and the talking heads, politicos, corporate honchos, etc. that they listened to. If narcotics had ever really been a problem, there were plenty of other ways of resolving that issue. Or, was it "corruption", something that can also be ameliorated through long-range things like... oh... economic development, better pay and training (and maybe organizational structure) in the justice and law enforcement sector. Or was it that the the agricultural and small business economy had collapsed due to ill-conceived economic policies and "free trade agreements"? That too was dismissed. The cheerleaders never gave a thought to the social or economic or security concerns of people in NL or elsewhere, leaving the locals with no choice really. Are having human rights stomped on my the military preferable to being held prey by gangsters? Arguably yes, but there were alternatives that were dismissed out of hand in a rush to find an immediate solution to a chronic problem, and I'm very much afraid it made the situation much worse for people caught in the middle.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

YucaLandia

Feb 2, 2012, 7:46 PM

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Re: [richmx2] Human Rights Watch

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Are you hinting that 16 years of $4 billion to $5 billion a year in US taxpayer-paid subsidies to forcibly dump artificially-cheap US corn onto the Mexican markets played a role in forcing millions of poor Mexican farmers and their children off their land - and out into "other ventures". (Total US taxpayer corn subsidies = roughly $10 billion a year.)

Really, before Mexico-bashers get too much steam built up, it's worth considering the effects of 10's billions per year in US taxpayer-paid US Govt. farm subsidies. US taxpayers have effectively paid $8 billion a year in farm subsidies that have wrecked entire sectors of the Mexican economy - driving Mexico to import 45% of her food - primarily as US taxpayer subsidized products. Real free-trade and economic development of Mexico are the best keys for Mexico to complete the transition to being a first world country, up from being a second-world country.
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E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

cookj5

Feb 3, 2012, 7:55 PM

Post #11 of 15 (3201 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Human Rights Watch

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In Reply To

I was just going to give a similar comment. How can the US issue human rights violations and rating when we have Gitmo?

Human Rights Watch is not affiliated with the US or any other government. They are an independent organization that reports on abuses committed around the world. The report that began this thread is one they recently issued on Mexico and its drug war. This, like all their other reports, is very well documented.

For some of their reports on human rights abuses within the US, see this site: http://www.hrw.org/...search/U.S.%20abuses

(This post was edited by Rolly on Feb 3, 2012, 8:05 PM)

richmx2

Feb 3, 2012, 8:35 PM

Post #12 of 15 (3195 views)

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Re: [surebought] Human Rights Watch

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I went over to the Human Rights office as...

I'm not sure why this was addressed to me (probably just the first "reply" button you hit), but I never said the CNDH (the Mexican government Human Rights "autonomous judicial organism") and Human Rights Watch were one and the same. Human Rights Watch is an international NGO, nothing to do with whatever it is you were talking about. Whether it is completely independent, or does -- to some extent -- bend to political pressure (either from its donors or from its host country) is an open question. In at least one country (Venezuela), the local HRW office was run by people openly collaborating with one political party and did call their objectivity into question.

As to the size of the Mexican Army, it's still one of the smallest per capita in the world. And, much of the army's resources and manpower (personpower?) is dedicated to other activities than internal policing... environmental protection, disaster relief, the military bank, etc.

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

surebought

Feb 9, 2012, 9:00 AM

Post #13 of 15 (3071 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Human Rights Watch

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Neither is the Cruz Roja affiliated with the Red Cross of Switzerland. Your international organization should have copyrighted the name, because everybody here thinks its some kind of international organization that operates in every major city in Mexico, but it is really just like I said, a dependance of the government. It has been Mexicanized.

richmx2

Feb 9, 2012, 9:13 AM

Post #14 of 15 (3065 views)

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Re: [surebought] Human Rights Watch

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NO.. CNDH is a constitutionally mandated body, part of the judiciary. I've never seen it confused with HRW, or heard of anyone who does so. My point was only that HRW has, in some places, people with a political agenda, and their reports sometimes reflect political biases.

What's different about Cruz Roja receiving government funding, or receiving subsides to provider certain public services than national Red Cross groups anywhere else on Planet Earth?

http://mexfiles.net
http://voiceofmexico.com
http://editorialmazatlan.com

Rolly

Feb 9, 2012, 9:28 AM

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Re: [surebought] Human Rights Watch

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In my area, Cruz Roja is supported by a fee on vehicle license plates.
There seems to be a running battle between Cruz Roja and the state of
Coahuila because the state is very slow in delivering the funds to Cruz Roja.
Recently in Torreón, they had to shut down for several days because
they ran out of money when the state failed to deliver.
It's a shame that such a worthwhile organization is at the mercy of politicians.

Rolly Pirate