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Brian

Jan 20, 2012, 5:42 AM

Post #1 of 20 (2457 views)

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The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Some here may remember the gruesome discovery several months ago of a burial
site of dozens of victims who had been kidnapped from buses headed to the USA.
The lingering question was not who had done it (Los Zetas) but why they had done
it. The victims, mostly folks seeking employment in the north without criminal
records, had nonetheless been tortured and their bodies were desecrated. As hard
as it is to imagine, the reason these poor people died was because they were
made to be guinea pigs in the training of assassins for the cartel. Those
enlisted men who had the stomach to act with such brutality were given higher
wages as sicarios while those who were hesitant were designated as lookouts.
While the death toll continues to mount, the inescapable conclusion is that
Mexican society is so much more violent than even a few short years ago. This
article in todays newspaper suggests that the enjoyment of violence is its own
reward. People often remark with sadness about the current state of affairs but
until their emotions turn to outrage, there is, in my opinion, little hope for
change.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/...do-trial-2612618.php

""The past generation saw corruption and impunity as normal, now there is a
generation that sees violence as normal.â€ El Infierno

Brian

Sent from my iPad

(This post was edited by Rolly on Jan 20, 2012, 7:00 AM)

mensamia

Jan 20, 2012, 8:03 AM

Post #2 of 20 (2396 views)

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Re: [Brian] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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This pandemic of violence is what has kept me from moving to Mexico even though I have land there. There were two more murders of expats last week, and no mention of it on the general forum. One senior American man who had lived in Mexico for 30 years, killed in a truck robbery, the other was a Canadian senior, killed in a home invasion. Why no mention of these murders on the general forum?

The Mexicans have no choice, it is their country and they must stay there. The only way expats can have an influence on the outcome of this culture of violence is to leave, en masse, until a change happens.. The resulting economic downfall might be enough of an impetus to institute change. But many expats don't want to leave, they value their investment more than their lives... or they all say 'it won't happen to me'. But everyday more expats who are not involved in the drug war are killed. And forum readers are not informed of these murders. It should be an obligation of any transparent expat forum to inform its readers of all murders of expats... instead of waiting for an expat to discover the murder in a newspaper and share it.

bournemouth

Jan 20, 2012, 8:15 AM

Post #3 of 20 (2385 views)

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Re: [mensamia] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Is it possible that nothing has been said about these two unfortunate events because no-one posting here has heard about them?

Brian

Jan 20, 2012, 8:19 AM

Post #4 of 20 (2383 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Someone on a San Miguel message list asked a question which reminded me of a local angle to this story.

There are many Mexican families living not far from SMA who have been touched personally by this phenomenon. Not long ago, I wrote about a young woman from Juventino Rosas who I know here in Austin. She knows the families of many of the men from there and Celaya who were abducted from a bus quite recently. The status of the investigation is that the State Attorney in Guanajuato isn't doing anything because the crime occurred in Northern Mexico and his counterpart in NL states questioning needs to be done where the trip originated in Celaya. No closure..no nada.

chinagringo

Jan 20, 2012, 8:26 AM

Post #5 of 20 (2373 views)

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Re: [mensamia] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Maybe if you were to read the geographic section of this forum, you might find both of these incidents discussed? I realize that it requires some knowledge of geography but don't think that requires much thought.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

RickS

Jan 20, 2012, 8:49 AM

Post #6 of 20 (2362 views)

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Re: [mensamia] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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"It should be an obligation of any transparent expat forum to inform its readers of all murders of expats... instead of waiting for an expat to discover the murder in a newspaper and share it."

Obviously mensamia this is just your opinion. And why should the rest of us spend our time researching every unfortunate murder or robbery SOB, as we have you to do that for us!?!

But similar to you I am pissed. While I am visiting SOB for the winter, there are murders going on NOB.... all over the place..... a couple of them right in the vicinity of my peaceful little hamlet in Colorado. And NO ONE had the courtesy to inform me of this in case I wanted to make a decision about returning to that hell hole of spot. And now I'll bet that Money Magazine will never vote it the #1 one spot to live, retire, recreate or in general spend a meaningful life as they have done consistently for the last 15 years! "Oh what am I going to do as I own property there!"

On a less tongue-in-cheek note - and this is just my opinion - I cannot for the life of me understand why one would spend so much effort looking at the dark side of life. I'm pretty sure that my head is not stuck in the sand but I'll be damned if I'll spend the rest of my life on earth TRYING to find the bad. And even if that was my outlook, I don't think I'd be trying to enlist everyone else to assist me with my quest.

You go on trying to figure out what's best for you... just don't expect the rest of us to help you out.

tonyburton

Jan 20, 2012, 9:47 AM

Post #7 of 20 (2345 views)

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Re: [mensamia] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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"The Mexicans have no choice, it is their country and they must stay there."
Many Mexicans clearly do not agree since they have left, or are leaving, Mexico for the US, Canada and other countries. A decade ago, this was only a trickle, but more recently the numbers have grown significantly. Hence, for example, the decision in Canada to introduce visas and restrict the numbers of Mexicans applying for asylum.

"The only way expats can have an influence on the outcome of this culture of violence is to leave, en masse, until a change happens. The resulting economic downfall might be enough of an impetus to institute change."
You greatly overestimate the economic contribution of foreign expats, unless you are also including in that category all (foreign) multinational firms with a presence in Mexico.

It should be an obligation of any transparent expat forum to inform its readers of all murders of expats"
MexConnect is proud to be not only the longest-running but also the most transparent of any expat forum about Mexico. MexConnect is independent, with no ties to real estate, travel agencies, government, hotels or any other commercial enterprise. Our "obligation" is to provide discussion forums for people interested in Mexico, not to be a comprehensive source of information about every murder. That said, I believe that there has been far more discussion of the violence related to Mexico's "war on drugs" here than on any other general forum. Equally importantly, the discussions have, for the most part, been informed and informative.

We thank all our posters for engaging in civil (if sometimes heated) discussions, all of which help to further people's understanding of Mexico, warts and all.

La Isla

Jan 20, 2012, 10:37 AM

Post #8 of 20 (2330 views)

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Re: [RickS] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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In Reply To

On a less tongue-in-cheek note - and this is just my opinion - I cannot for the life of me understand why one would spend so much effort looking at the dark side of life. I'm pretty sure that my head is not stuck in the sand but I'll be damned if I'll spend the rest of my life on earth TRYING to find the bad. And even if that was my outlook, I don't think I'd be trying to enlist everyone else to assist me with my quest.

I couldn't say it better myself, so I'll just add a "hear, hear" to RickS's sensible post!

whynotwrite

Jan 20, 2012, 11:17 AM

Post #9 of 20 (2314 views)

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Re: [La Isla] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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I will add my " hear, hear" to yours. Why anyone would think that they "deserve" to hear about some things or in fact have any business making demands to a country they are not a citizen of, is just plain arrogant.

esperanza

Jan 20, 2012, 11:29 AM

Post #10 of 20 (2304 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Hear hear to Tony, too. Hear hear to RickS. Hear hear to all of the truly informed posters who bother--who take time out of their daily lives to BOTHER--to post information here on Mexconnect. Nothing obliges any of us to take the time to try to help others find information useful to decision-making about how to respond to any of Mexico's many, many vagaries, glories, or current problems.

Naysayers are cordially invited to go elsewhere.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

bournemouth

Jan 20, 2012, 11:47 AM

Post #11 of 20 (2297 views)

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Re: [La Isla] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Thank you to Rick S and Tony for dealing with Mensamia's post in such a good way.

mensamia

Jan 20, 2012, 4:05 PM

Post #12 of 20 (2227 views)

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Re: [tonyburton] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Thank you Tony and bournemouth for your sane, non-sarcastic, non-condescending comments. I even enjoyed Rick's post, thanks Rick. In answer to your question, I dwell on this subject because it seems to be huge elephant in the room that most don't want to discuss. And I am not good at ignoring it.

So Tony, if someone wants to discuss the violent crime level in Mexico, this forum would welcome that discussion? The reason I ask is because most posts about the murders of expats end up being locked rather quickly.

And Tony... you don't think the expats have enough financial clout, as a group, to inspire a change of mindset. What percentage of the economy do you think the expats and tourism amount to?

Just wondering if anyone else has some constructive ideas on what to do...solutions.. whatever... besides crucifying me for bringing up this issue whenever I hear of expats murders.

mazbook1

Jan 20, 2012, 4:21 PM

Post #13 of 20 (2220 views)

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Re: [mensamia] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Well, I don't know what Tony's response will be, but what expats contribute to the economy of México is something far, far less and very different from what extranjero tourists contribute. The things (especially the ignorant reporting NOB) that effect tourism are things that are only very slightly—if at all—important to the expats who LIVE here.

Discussion of drug war violence and murders (even in the rare instances where it does effect expat residents) just are things of little interest to the large majority of the resident expats. As RickS said, this isn't a "head in the sand" attitude, just a thoroughly thought out opinion of the large majority of those resident expats that I know, both personally, through correspondence and via posts on this forum and others.

We live better and more fulfilled lives in México than we could possibly live NOB, where the buying power of our pensions and/or savings wouldn't go nearly as far and might even force us to live in NOB areas considered dangerous, i.e., many low-income areas.

All you do with your life by worrying about these sorts of things is shorten that life…something few of us are willing to do.

(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Jan 20, 2012, 6:49 PM)

tashby

Jan 20, 2012, 5:03 PM

Post #14 of 20 (2211 views)

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Re: [mensamia] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Quote

I dwell on this subject ...

Yes, you do.

Quote

.... because it seems to be huge elephant in the room that most don't want to discuss.

I disagree. It seems to me security is the most talked-about subject in Mexico right now, both on internet forums and out there in the real world. But since you don't live here, mensamia, you couldn't possibly know about the latter. Also, the conversations I have aren't limited only to incidents of violence against expats, though that seems to be your primary focus.

Just look at the evolution of this thread.

tonyburton

Jan 20, 2012, 6:02 PM

Post #15 of 20 (2192 views)

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Re: [mensamia] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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"So Tony, if someone wants to discuss the violent crime level in Mexico, this forum would welcome that discussion? The reason I ask is because most posts about the murders of expats end up being locked rather quickly."
MexConnect has ALWAYS allowed such discussion. Threads are locked only when the discussion wanders so far off the original topic as to be confusing, or when the "discussion" becomes overly personal, aggressive, offensive or confrontational in nature. (MexConnect is a "family forum")

"What percentage of the economy do you think the expats and tourism amount to?"
As mazbook1 has indicated, there is the world of difference between the concerns and contributions of expats resident in Mexico and foreign tourists (notwithstanding the difficulties of defining these categories precisely). According to the Tourism Secretary, tourism (that's ALL tourism, not just foreign tourists) accounts for about 9% of Mexico's GDP. The contribution of resident expats to Mexico's economy may be important in some smaller communities (such as Ajijic) but is a drop in the bucket from a national perspective.

mensamia

Jan 20, 2012, 6:51 PM

Post #16 of 20 (2169 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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Discussion of drug war violence and murders (even in the rare instances where it does effect expat residents) just are things of little interest to the large majority of the resident expats

I guess that is understandable. Residents are already there, have made the decision to move there and most choose to live with that decision. I am in the process of making a decision and perhaps that is why this topic is much more relevant to me. When making a life decision one does weigh everything, and the good about Mexico is very apparent. For me, it is just figuring out if the expat murders and drug violence are worth the good parts.

karenanron

Jan 20, 2012, 7:16 PM

Post #17 of 20 (2158 views)

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Re: [mensamia] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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The way we are doing this move is by going down and living for a few weeks at a time in the area we are interested in. In our case, it's the Merida, Chelem area. I feel you can get a good feel for an area this way. This is our second trip there. Loved the first time we were there last Aug and are looking forward to March. In Aug we stayed in Merida in the Centro district. Loved it. We walked all over the place even though we had a car, even at night. The main thing you have to do is pay attention to whats going on around you just like you should NOB. This way you can form your own opinion of an area. Just my $.02 Good luck to ya in your decision.

Altahabana

Jan 21, 2012, 6:22 AM

Post #18 of 20 (2096 views)

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Re: [mensamia] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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The only way expats can have an influence on the outcome of this culture of violence is to leave, en masse, until a change happens

That comment strikes me as incredibly naive at best if she is suggesting that foreign ex-pats can somehow influence the outcome of a serious and peculiarly domestic social problem. My impression from the outside looking in is that even the most stubborn resident ex-pats acknowledge the elephant now and if it's not discussed it's because they feel uneasy doing it and realize discussion is futile because they can effectively do nothing ro change the situation.

One comment about the killing fields of Tamaulipas. The murders in San Fernando the witness was describing in his testimony in the Zeta murder conspiracy trial in Laredo federal court allegedly took place in 2005. He was not describing the (still) unexplained murder of bus passengers that apparently took place there in March 2011.

mensamia

Jan 21, 2012, 6:26 AM

Post #19 of 20 (2097 views)

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Re: [karenanron] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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that is great advice. I have spent several months in Mexico each year for the last seven years. In the Yucatan, in SMA region and Chapala.

Brian

Jan 21, 2012, 8:45 AM

Post #20 of 20 (2064 views)

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Re: [Altahabana] The killing field of Tamaulipas

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In Reply To

One comment about the killing fields of Tamaulipas. The murders in San Fernando the witness was describing in his testimony in the Zeta murder conspiracy trial in Laredo federal court allegedly took place in 2005. He was not describing the (still) unexplained murder of bus passengers that apparently took place there in March 2011.

The impression I got from the article is that the Zetas had been using the site for "training purposes" going back as early as 2005. Its recent discovery last year necessitated their using other locations such as those recently unearthed in Nuevo Leon. That is where the bus containing the passengers from Celaya was seized.

(This post was edited by Brian on Jan 21, 2012, 8:49 AM)