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BluChunx

Jan 15, 2012, 9:05 PM

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Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Although the Mexican government estimates that half of alcoholic beverages (I think they're referring to hard liquor), are counterfeit. I didn't see an estimate of how many are adulterated, but in other countries, there have been serious incidents of poisoning from chemicals in counterfeit alcoholic beverages. So far, I have only heard of one possible (minor) incident in my area. I would like to hear from anyone that suspects that they have had symptoms such as abnormal dizziness, headache, breathing trouble, or anything else besides what you would expect. I'm also talking to medical authorities.

I don't want to be Chicken Little, but this is an important subject. I never hear anyone talking about it, so I'm hoping it's all smooth sailing.

S3AN

Jan 16, 2012, 7:24 AM

Post #2 of 30 (3522 views)

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Re: [BluChunx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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It will be interesting to find out more about this.

Do you think it is a widespread problem in Mexico and is it more likely to occur in certain areas?

I know, here in England there has been a lot of publicity about counterfeit Vodka and the very serious health issues that it can cause.
Regards, S3AN.

Mexico Culture Mexican History

http://www.riviera-maya-holidays.com

surebought

Jan 16, 2012, 8:23 AM

Post #3 of 30 (3483 views)

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Re: [BluChunx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Well since you asked. All legitimate alcohol is tightly regulated by the Mexican Government. Since they make so much money in Taxes they really do keep an eye on it. They don't want any scandals. Many of the Distilleries are quasi-Nationalized like Pemex. Orendain Tequila is one of these. When the distilleries do their bottling, there has to be a Government rep and with Tequila is even more stringent because a rep from the Association has to be there to to monitor quality also. Always look for the hard to counterfeit authorization sticker. Memorize what the sticker looks like. Its hard for me to believe that anyone would try to counterfeit legitimate Liquor, because its so cheap anyway. In many rural areas of the Republica there are Moonshiners making local brew. I would stay away from that. Buy your brew in the Soriana's when its on sale for 25% off. One of the two happiest days the American has as a new immigrant to Mexico is when he finds out how cheap Oso Negro Vodka is. He can't tell the difference between it an Absolute. And a word about drinking in Mexico by the Americans.
Nearly all recent Mexican Movies and some soap operas that I have seen (El Retorno and Tequila) in the last ten years, there is an American Character in the Film that has an incredible falling down drinking problem. That's the way they see us. It is a weakness that they can exploit and they will. Don't drink around the locals. Sometimes jokes don't translate too well and lead to scary scenes. If we depicted Mexicans in our movies the same way, then there would be an uproar. But since I am the only one who watches these movies, to me its just a big joke.
There used to be a guy here in Ensenada that would go around to the Hotels and knock on the door and try to sell you a bottle of Tequila for 50 pesos. They were the right bottle and everything. The Gringo would open the bottle later and it would be full of water. The guy could screw that cap back on so perfectly that you couldn't tell.

chicois8

Jan 16, 2012, 8:24 AM

Post #4 of 30 (3482 views)

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Re: [BluChunx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Great handle for an alcohol related topic!

When you write counterfeit do you mean locally produced liquor like
Racilla in Jalisco and Bacanora in Sonora that does not have a government tax stamp on the bottle or homemade Pulque, Tuba or Tepache?

Or, do you mean some sort of large scale production of national brands sold on the black market?

BluChunx

Jan 16, 2012, 10:03 AM

Post #5 of 30 (3452 views)

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Re: [chicois8] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Hi, I mean fake labels on booze made by an illicit organization. China is a major source. An article mentioned people observing trucks unloading boxes with Chinese lettering into smaller trucks that would speed off to wherever, for example. My main concern is whether it is ever adulterated with chemicals, as has happened in other countries, with serious results. I haven't talked to many people yet, but one of my friends suspects she may have had an abnormal reaction to a bad drink. Some operations can produce very convincing labels.

BluChunx

Jan 16, 2012, 10:09 AM

Post #6 of 30 (3449 views)

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Re: [BluChunx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Check this out, this is the source of the 50% figure I quoted. The English is software translated plus me tweaking it based on my imperfect Spanish. Original Spanish follows:

La Frontera
Proposal to Make Adulteration of Alcoholic Beverages a Felony
July 25, 2011

The Assemblyman of the PRI, Leobardo Urbina, proposed reforms to the Federal District Penal Code to criminalize serious adulteration of alcoholic beverages and their marketing. The legislator of the institutional Revolutionary Party pointed out that there are about 2 thousand 200 places that sell adulterated liquor, which puts at risk the health of the population, especially young people.

He stated that mafias engaged in recycling of empty bottles, counterfeiting holograms, and "authenticity labels" operate in the capital.

In an interview, he indicated that the reforms to the Criminal Code of the Federal District include adulteration of beverages among the offences under the Federal Act against Organized Crime.

Also, those that sell adulterated liquor knowing it is illegal in origin, will be tried for culpability in a homicide attempt, and exercise "extinction of domain" for the buildings that are used to produce it, store it, and sell it, he added.

URBINA said that the Federal Commission for the Protection Against Health Risks (COFEPRIS) can't stop the informal market of alcoholic beverages, which is a serious risk to the health of young people who consume it, and that can cause death.

He explained that in the past five years, organized crime has increased the production of alcoholic beverages adulterated with substances known as methanol and ethylene glycol, that can cause intoxication, nausea, seizures, loss of sight and even death.

It is more lucrative in the domestic market of alcoholic beverages, to adulterate and falsify them, with the consequent risk to the health of consumers, despite "the lukewarm efforts" made by the authorities, he added.

According to the Industry of Wines and Liquors, half of the alcohol consumed in Mexico is false. The mafias involved in these illicit create ghost companies use fake labels. "These are high quality and are said to come from producers and exporters that remove the tagging and then disappear," explained.

El asambleísta del PRI, Leobardo Urbina, propuso reformas al Código Penal del Distrito Federal para tipificar como delito grave la adulteración de bebidas alcohólicas y su comercialización. El legislador del Partido Revolucionario Institucional señaló que existen alrededor de 2 mil 200 lugares que venden licor adulterado, que pone en riesgo la salud de la población sobretodo a los jóvenes.

Aseguró que en la capital operan mafias dedicadas al reciclaje de botellas vacías, falsificación de hologramas y de "sellos autenticidad".

En entrevista, informó que las reformas al Código Penal del Distrito Federal contemplan incluir la adulteración de bebidas en catalogo de delitos previstos en la Ley Federal contra la Delincuencia Organizada.

También se plantea que quien venda licor adulterado sabiendo su procedencia ilícita, sea juzgado por tentativa de homicidio doloso, y que se le aplique la figura de extinción de dominio en los inmuebles que ocupan para producirlo, guardarlo y venderlo, añadió.

Urbina aseguró que la Comisión Federal para la Protección Contra Riesgos Sanitarios (Cofepris) no puede detener el mercado informal de bebidas alcohólicas, lo que es un grave riesgo a la salud de los jóvenes que las consumen y que pueden causar la muerte.

Explicó que en los últimos cinco años el crimen organizado ha incrementado la producción de bebidas alcohólicas adulteradas con sustancias conocidas como metanol y etilenglicol, que al ingerirlas ocasionan intoxicación, náuseas, convulsiones, pérdida de la vista y hasta la muerte.

Al elevarse el valor en el mercado nacional de las bebidas alcohólicas, se hace más lucrativa su adulteración y falsificación de éstas, con el consecuente riesgo para la salud de los consumidores, a pesar de "los tibios esfuerzos" que han hecho las autoridades, agregó.

Según la industria de vinos y licores, la mitad del alcohol que se consume en México y que las mafias dedicadas a estos ilícitos crean empresas fantasmas que utilizan etiquetas falsas, 'se dan de alta y se dicen productoras y exportadoras, sacan los marbetes y luego desaparecen', detalló.

(This post was edited by BluChunx on Jan 16, 2012, 10:23 AM)

DavidHF

Jan 16, 2012, 10:17 AM

Post #7 of 30 (3446 views)

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Re: [surebought] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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What do you mean by "quasi-nationalized?"

BluChunx

Jan 16, 2012, 10:25 AM

Post #8 of 30 (3445 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Paraestatal, like PEMEX. Very tightly regulated.

joaquinx

Jan 16, 2012, 10:38 AM

Post #9 of 30 (3442 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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In Reply To

What do you mean by "quasi-nationalized?"

I'd like the know how "quasi-nationalized" is defined by the poster. Plus, PEMEX, is nationalized and not quasi-nationalized.

Quasi-nationalized says to me that the poster didn't know if it was nationalized or not and opted for quasi.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

jrpierce

Jan 16, 2012, 1:50 PM

Post #10 of 30 (3398 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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I know for sure that a large percentage of alcohol sold in bars in major US cities is counterfeit and made by the mob. That is less true when one is buying liquor from retail stores in the US.

I wouldn't doubt for a minute that Mexican organized crime would adopt similar strategies in a heartbeat. If the counterfeiters make their customers sick, they will soon be discovered and out of business. I bet they are fairly cautious about that.

Jim

In Reply To

Vichil

Jan 16, 2012, 9:38 PM

Post #11 of 30 (3331 views)

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Re: [BluChunx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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I think it depends on the definition of counterfeit..
I have a hard time believing that major brands in Mexico woud be counterfeited and sold in Mexico. Now if you go to Asia, I would not have a major problem believing someone telling me that some of the major brands are counterfeited. You find counterfeit of everything over there.
I do not believe there is counterfeit of major Tequila brands in the States or Europe either.
Now if you tell me that a lot of the bottle of well known brands in some bars or restaurants have been refilled with another brand, that would be a whole lot easier to believe although you would have to remove these tops and replace them, but that would be easier to believe.
Last time I was in France I bought a Tequila from some supermarket and the product was barely drinkable. It was the only Tequila so no choice. It was so bad that I started reading the label and the stuffed had been bottled in the Netherlands. I do not believe it was Tequila and that could have been any crap from anywhere. if you asked me the question then I would have said it was not Tequila but we did not get sick.

If you mean alduterated when you say counterfeit it would not be that difficult to believe that is could happen to a lot of the stuff sold by the side of the road in plastic jugs but I do not know that for a fact.
I have not been sick from drinking Tequila in moderation so far so I guess I never had the bad stuff.
Dizziness, headaches I have had from having one drink too many. Trouble breathing never

joaquinx

Jan 17, 2012, 6:04 AM

Post #12 of 30 (3292 views)

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Re: [jrpierce] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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In Reply To

I know for sure that a large percentage of alcohol sold in bars in major US cities is counterfeit and made by the mob.

I'd like to give you the opportunity to revise this statement. I will agree that in some bars cheaper liquor is substituted for the more expensive stuff. Simply, after a few drinks or as the night grows late, people can't tell the difference between the good stuff and the bad or even if they are drinking nothing but water. Yet to say that it is counterfeit and made by the mob waxes hilarious. The mob wouldn't make liquor, but simply steal it and sell it under the original labels.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.

jrpierce

Jan 17, 2012, 8:42 AM

Post #13 of 30 (3259 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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I had a unique opportunity to become acquainted with a high-level mafioso while living in New York city. Our lives were very different of course, and I was young and naive, and as I asked him question after question, he offered to "teach me" about his world. Regarding restaurants and bars, he said the wise guys collected pay-offs from most of them in New York City. Those who didn't pay found themselves cut off from services like window washing, laundry, trash collection, delivery of food, delivery of alcohol, etc. He also said that they counterfeited several of the major popular premium brands of liquor, and that their liquor distributors sold those brands to the restaurants/bars. He said the same pattern was true for many other big cities in the US. Never once did I find him to be untruthful, and many things he told me about were later verified. Thus, I believe what he said. That was a number of years ago, but I suspect it is still true today. I guess my saying "for sure" might have been a bit strong, but IMHO there sure is a good basis to believe it.

Jim

Vichil

Jan 17, 2012, 7:06 PM

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Re: [joaquinx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Funny I was in the liquor and wine business and many to the current distributors are kids and grandkids from old mobsters and some distributors have gone "corporate" . Maybe some hoodlums are in the counterfeit business but the mob is in the above board liquor business.
To this day the large liquor manufacturors are owned by old Jewish families and many distributors are from Italian descent and sometimes Irish. It is a different culture all together.
Counterfeit business for them I do not think so they have a name to protect.

YucaLandia

Jan 19, 2012, 6:05 AM

Post #15 of 30 (3099 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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I think jrpierce's insights are like putting your finger to your nose back in the '60s, 70's, and 80's when talking about the trash collection and then recycling businesses in NYC. If you were in that business, you were connected.

No way to prove it with internet references or independent sources, but borrow money from a different arm of the trash hauling firms parent companies, be slow to repay - argue about it - and you found yourself in the hospital for a month. I was a part of a legitimate wholly owned subsidiary - an environmental lab in Colorado - and I was working my way up the chain in international joint marketing projects with engineers in the companies above us, until I heard who our real parent company was and where they were located. Then - after evenings of drinking with new friends - the personal stories would come out at the end of the night about how specific individuals whom we mutually knew had gotten cross-wise with our corporate parent.

Whether it's sports betting, the numbers, permitting (health department, plumbing inspections etc), liquor supply, etc, it's helpful to realize that these operations are often not pure as the driven snow.
-
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Jan 19, 2012, 6:05 AM)

Sculptari

Jan 19, 2012, 6:58 AM

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Re: [BluChunx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Home distillation of alcohol has been a hobby for many people around the world for thousands of years. The largest and most successful company in the U.S.A. is http://www.brewhaus.com, and they have been thriving for over twenty years now. The flavoring industry started in Sweden, when they raised an extraordinarily high tax to curb alcohol consumption. The authorities everywhere, seem to ignore it, unless there are sales involved. There have been busts in Canada - they almost always involve smuggled truckloads, or the sale of bulk red wine to restaurants, mostly Italian restaurants. The restaurants buy bulk red wine from the official stores, it is awful stuff but cheap, they pour that away and dispense the homemade stuff, which is pretty good. This happened to me once - I tried a house red in a restaurant, not bad!, bought an 'official' bottle later - yuck. This restaurant has been in business many, many years. I think this is quite common.

The methanol is a very small squirt at the beginning of the distillation, it is always thrown away, it tastes extremely bad. Ethylene glycol has been added to smooth white wine, and is very poisonous. Glycerine is only slightly more expensive, and does a much better job. As you will see on that website, there are two types of distillation. The first one is to distill the cleanest, "neutral spirit", from the lowest cost source (usually white sugar). This is carbon filtered and then the flavorings are added. Some are excellent, many are mediocre, none are awful. Five gallons of ferment, will create about 1 gallon a alcohol. The more serious distillers are looking for a broader 'target' when they distill, picking up flavors from the ferment. For example Scotch and Irish whiskies are made from fermented 'beer', but with no hops in it. Some of these distillations are outstanding, I'm sure there are commercial products out there with the same quality, but they would be very expensive.

So when you hear 'counterfeit' it could very well be these neutral spirits with the commercial flavorings. The flavorings are available in bulk. This would be labor intensive and legally risky though. Saying that, there are stills in the hills all over Mexico. Many of them feed an "El Patron" barrel, a family wooden barrel topped up and gifted on special days. Again, these might be some of the finest tequilas, raicillas, and mezcales you ever tasted. The cheap adulterant used in Mexico is Aquardiente - cane alcohol - neutral spirit. It is used, for example, to dilute tequila (then no longer 100% Agave) or to make a big, alcoholic punch bowl, variations of which are all over Mexico. I just checked -five litres is 68 pesos! This is same as what the Brazilians call Cachaca - a very trendy swill in the North right now. Brazilians also run their cars on a variation of this stuff. No wonder they are masters of Carnivale!

Vichil

Jan 19, 2012, 10:46 AM

Post #17 of 30 (3025 views)

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Re: [BluChunx] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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I guess countefeit could be agave alcohol made out side of the appellation controlée of Tequila and sold or exported as Tequila for exemple.
The government knows from their tax reords how much is produced and how much is exported so they must have an idea of the home consumption and maybe they are coming up with something over the production numbers when they add the 3 figures.

In France there were a couple of huge busts when the government found out there was more Pouilly Fuisse exported than produced...
...

BluChunx

Jan 19, 2012, 11:23 AM

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Thanks! ...and Tepito PROFECO research

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Wow - thanks all for the insights!

So far, I have not found or heard anything about people getting symptoms from adulteration. That makes me feel more confident about having a drink in a bar. I already have radiator fluid at home, and it's much cheaper!

Here's something else I picked up, lending credibility to the assertion by the industry regarding the high level of "falsos." It's old (2004), but it's interesting that 100% were fake:

PROFECO analyzed twenty nine randomly selected alcoholic beverages sold in Tepito and results indicated that all were counterfeit and adulterated, not matching the brand of the packaging.

^ "Las bebidas alcohólicas que venden en Tepito son falsificadas [Alcoholic beverages sold in Tepito are counterfeit]" (in Spanish). Mexico: PROFECO. 2004-11-01. Retrieved 2009-11-11.[dead link]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tepito

...and the Tepito entry is intersting in its own right.

Sculptari

Jan 19, 2012, 1:28 PM

Post #19 of 30 (2983 views)

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Re: [BluChunx] Thanks! ...and Tepito PROFECO research

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Ah - drinking in a bar, that is something quite different. Here the aquardiente plays a role too. When you see those two-4-1 specials, they are sometimes mixed with the cane alcohol. Once again -there are many people who actually prefer aquardiente over vodka, like there are those who prefer Mexican soft drinks sweetened with cane sugar, not corn or beet sugar.

And tequila - I am sorry I am not a big tequila drinker, so maybe I'm not the best source. But I asked the owner of the big (and oldest) liquor store here in Puerto Vallarta, what was the best 'all purpose' tequila to order. He told me "El Compadre" was real popular, so he included a bottle with my order (I like free delivery!). When I tasted it, I found it was surprisingly smooth, but it did not have the intense flavor that some tequilas have. I did some research and found that it was not technically a 'tequila" because it was from Oaxaca, but it was reposado and 100% Agave. Then I found it's secret - I had not checked it's price - I could have bought a case of 12 - one liter (quart) bottles for around $50 U.S. No wonder the bars like it, and it is the number one tequila in Mazatlan!

So there are no bars that would poison their customers. The watering and substitution of liquor has been going on for many a year (thinking of those old west saloon movies!). As is having a bunch of exotic bottles that no one knows what they are, how old they are, are even if they are even genuine.

A funny business - vichil would remember everybody buying those Italian Chianti bottles, not for the lovely wine that it is, but for the straw basket bottles that were so chic with a candle stuck in them! Or another one - the 'ultra -hip, gotta have' California Coolers - cheap white wine and Squirt!

(This post was edited by Sculptari on Jan 19, 2012, 1:56 PM)

Vichil

Jan 19, 2012, 5:05 PM

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Re: [BluChunx] Thanks! ...and Tepito PROFECO research

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I do not know if Tepito is all the same but it has some of the roughest characters in Mexico City so I would not be surprised that you could find some really bad stuff there but then I would never buy alcohol in that type of areas .If you go to a nice place you should not worry about it . If you frequent rough cantinas , you are on your own and I bet there is more to woory about in that type of plavce than the counterfeit and dangerous alcohol.

Yes there are lots and lots of gimmick in the business, someone should write a book and have some great pictures

(This post was edited by Vichil on Jan 19, 2012, 5:08 PM)

chicois8

Jan 20, 2012, 6:17 PM

Post #21 of 30 (2853 views)

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Re: [Sculptari] Thanks! ...and Tepito PROFECO research

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And tequila - I am sorry I am not a big tequila drinker, so maybe I'm not the best source. But I asked the owner of the big (and oldest) liquor store here in Puerto Vallarta, what was the best 'all purpose' tequila to order. He told me "El Compadre" was real popular, so he included a bottle with my order (I like free delivery!). When I tasted it, I found it was surprisingly smooth, but it did not have the intense flavor that some tequilas have. I did some research and found that it was not technically a 'tequila" because it was from Oaxaca, but it was reposado and 100% Agave. Then I found it's secret - I had not checked it's price - I could have bought a case of 12 - one liter (quart) bottles for around $50 U.S. No wonder the bars like it, and it is the number one tequila in Mazatlan!

After reading your post about El Compadre I had to see how it compares to Tequila and there is no comparison ...First of all you have to remember all tequila is mescal but not all mescal is tequila...there are over 2 hundred types of agave that mescal can be made from, tequila is made from the Weber Blue Agave and unless it states 100% Blue Agave on the label it is not pure tequila...Repasado is aged in old oak whiskey barrels and appears honey colored while El Compadre looks like urine, it is not even a good mescal much less a copy of tequila...]

mazbook1

Jan 20, 2012, 9:08 PM

Post #22 of 30 (2832 views)

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Re: [chicois8] Thanks! ...and Tepito PROFECO research

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Well, I was never a tequila fan and still am not a fan of the tequilas with a very strong agave flavor, but then I was introduced to Tequila Cabrito 100% blue agave tequila and became a fan of its mild flavor. It's the seventh best-selling tequila in México.

Cabrito is still my favorite, but the El Compadre 100% agave from Oaxaca is the one I choose when the pocketbook is nearly empty, as I find it a reasonable, mild agave flavored liquor that makes a good substitute for Tequila Cabrito, and it's darn inexpensive at Sam's Club.

If you're a fan of the strongly flavored tequilas, it's no wonder you found the Compadre not to your liking. For me, it's a better drink than many of the popular, much more expensive, 100% blue agave tequilas.

Different strokes for different folks! It's ALL subjective!

(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Jan 20, 2012, 9:10 PM)

esperanza

Jan 21, 2012, 7:23 AM

Post #23 of 30 (2792 views)

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Re: [BluChunx] Thanks! ...and Tepito PROFECO research

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A couple of recent links from El Universal addressing this topic:

December 2011: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/817970.html

January 20, 2012: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/ciudad/109919.html

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

surebought

Jan 21, 2012, 7:51 AM

Post #24 of 30 (2778 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Quasi_ Nationalized. Well, I don't mean that they were expropriated without compensation. In the case of Orandein, the taxes got so high the owners couldn't pay their union workers, so the Government traded 7000 acres of raw land in San Quintin for his shares in the company. The Government gradually bought out the other owners. It appears to be a private company with the S.A. de C.V., but there are no private shareholders. This kind of neutralizes the unions to. I suspect that Kahlua is under some kind of similar arrangement inside of Mexico. The guy to be here is the US distributor. Mexico taxes very lightly the Liquor that gets exported. And Liquor Imported into Mexico is subject to NAFTA. Forget it if you are a local producer, selling into the Mexican Market. Its only a good business for the Government. If any of this interests you as a potential business opportunity, send a private reply.

jrpierce

Jan 21, 2012, 9:15 AM

Post #25 of 30 (2758 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Counterfeit Alcohol: Your Experience

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Right you are Steve. This information did come to me some time ago, and perhaps it has been largely cleaned up. But I have also heard that newer restaurants and bars in NYC are still being hit up for "protection" money.

Jim

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