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surebought

Jan 9, 2012, 8:37 AM

Post #26 of 45 (2035 views)

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Re: [Minerva909] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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Gosh, nobody even touched on one issue. When you are a person who was lucky to survive some really tough schools in the US, you tend to be a lot more comfortable around the Mayan population which someone on the thread said was around 50%. In Mexico across the border from Belize, the Mayan population is going to be more like 80% or more.

Minerva909

Jan 9, 2012, 3:06 PM

Post #27 of 45 (2003 views)

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Re: [surebought] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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I do not understand what you mean. I work among the Maya. like them and am very comfortable around them. What I could do without are shortages of foodstuffs I am used to, shortages of goods, especially higher quality goods, shortages of entertainment: good libraries, performing arts like symphony or theatre.

If you want to indicate that Maya are dangerous or violent I wonder what Maya are you referring to or how are you treating them.

For your info: Maya constitute only around 10% of population in Belize, although in the southernmost district of Toledo they are about 50% of population - and 79% of them live in poverty, while only about 37% of Belizeans in general live under poverty level. So - in my book - they would be justified to protest the situation a bit more vigorously. While all they do is taking govern ment to court - in a very peaceful and civilized manner.

johanson


Jan 9, 2012, 3:49 PM

Post #28 of 45 (1991 views)

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Re: [Minerva909] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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And I bet that with your great language abilities (Remember that Minerva is from Sweden and therefore speaks at least several other languages.) you have learned a little of the native dialect. (Edit: Sorry not a dialect but a language spoken before the Spanish arrived.)

I sure know that when I moved to NL from the US that a lot of the words spoken there sounded close to what my grandparents used to speak, although I had never been fluent in Swedish, what little I did know made it very easy to learn NL and later with a little of those two languages, it was even easier to learn German when I moved to Oberammergau.

Minerva, that last time I drove to Sweden was when I was in NL and was in the days when the Swedes drove on the other side of the road, like they do in GB. And I was terribly shocked how well even my very young relatives spoke English.

You are very lucky to come from a country where it is normal to be multi-lingual. Although I do not have your abilities, I'm terribly glad my parents motivated me to learn the language of the country I was in even when I was in the military.

I may chastised for saying this, but is very sad how few people in my country even try to learn another language. I know one lady from Oregon, who came to Mexico 32 years ago and still doesn't speak Spanish. I don't speak any language perfectly, not even American English, but what little Mexican Spanish I speak, makes my life so much richer and the maybe 10 words of the local indigenous language I speak is greatly appreciated by those I see at the weekly market.

I promise you folks, that the more of the local language you learn, the more you will love where you were at.

Peter Erik JohansSon (now Johanson)

PS Aren't you glad that Sweden has the Krona and not the Euro :)


(This post was edited by johanson on Jan 9, 2012, 6:48 PM)

esperanza

Jan 9, 2012, 6:02 PM

Post #29 of 45 (1971 views)

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Re: [johanson] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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Pete, Maya is not a dialect. It is a language all its own.




http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com








La Isla


Jan 9, 2012, 6:19 PM

Post #30 of 45 (1965 views)

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Re: [esperanza] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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In Reply To
Pete, Maya is not a dialect. It is a language all its own.[/reply

To be more precise, it's a family of languages. The problem is that Mexicans are apt to refer to non-European languages native to Mexico as dialects. It's a not-so-subtle put-down, with racist and colonialist overtones. Over the years, I've had some discussions with Mexican friends about this use of the word "dialect", and how and why it is incorrect, and insulting to those who speak these so-called dialects.

sfmacaws


Jan 9, 2012, 6:30 PM

Post #31 of 45 (1959 views)

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Re: [esperanza] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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...and a fairly sophisticated one at that. Actually, it is more like a family of languages with dozens recognized and at least 4 commonly spoken in Mexico, Belize and the Guatemalan highlands. Maya here speak Yucatec Maya, in the highlands of Chiapas there is Tzotzil and Tzeltal, Quiché has, I think, the largest group of native speakers in the northern highlands of Guatemala and Kekchi is spoken in Belize and the Peten of Guatemala.

Friends who are native Yucatec speakers have told me that they can understand some of the other Mayan languages, partly because there has been some cross learning between them. They also tell me that it is easier for a native Maya speaker to learn English than for a native Spanish speaker because there are sounds that exist in Maya and English that don't in Spanish. I think they are sounds like the TH and the SH. My personal observation has been that the Maya are good language students, partly that may be that learning a third language is said to be easier than the second, etc.

Here in the Yucatan, it is mainly women who are monolingual in Yucatec Maya. The men leave their villages to work and they are more likely to be sent to school.

**we were posting at the same time.

Jonna - Mérida, Yucatán



(This post was edited by sfmacaws on Jan 9, 2012, 6:31 PM)

johanson


Jan 9, 2012, 6:43 PM

Post #32 of 45 (1952 views)

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Re: [esperanza] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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What a dumb comment on my part. :) How could it be a dialect? :) You are so right. And of course the languages spoken by the indigenous persons already in Mexico are, of course, not dialects of Spanish, but a language they spoke before they were invaded.

You might find this interesting but the conquistadores (spelling) invaded and occupied the Philippines for more than 400 years. If you speak Spanish, you can count in Pilipino, (Tagalog), Because the Filipinos when invaded had names for each of their ten fingers, but above that they had no numbers and now use Spanish, really.

Now, if I could only spell, the Philippines, Pilipino and Tagalog.


mazbook1


Jan 10, 2012, 9:24 AM

Post #33 of 45 (1906 views)

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Re: [johanson] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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Your spelling was just fine, Pete. I may be wrong, but I hear Tagalog as a sort of pidgin Spanish. The rhythm, pronunciation and nearly everything about the language makes it sound just like Spanish (to me). Only when you try to understand it do you realize it is not Spanish at all.

La Isla


Jan 10, 2012, 10:40 AM

Post #34 of 45 (1894 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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According to this Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_language, Tagalog is an Austronesian language, not a Spanish pidgin. However, some Spanish vocabulary has entered the language over the years, as have words from English.


(This post was edited by Rolly on Jan 10, 2012, 10:53 AM)

mazbook1


Jan 10, 2012, 11:57 AM

Post #35 of 45 (1879 views)

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Re: [La Isla] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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Thanks, La Isla. Not being particularly interested in the patois of the Philippines, I hadn't bothered to look it up, just sort of went with my own feelings after hearing it spoken. I'm certainly not surprised that Tagalog has borrowed Spanish words, considering how long the Spanish claimed the Philippines as a territory. And, considering the pervasiveness of English nowadays, it's not surprising at all that English words are now being borrowed.

La Isla


Jan 10, 2012, 12:40 PM

Post #36 of 45 (1871 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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Since languages are my profession, so to speak, I enjoyed looking up that information. And I was pretty sure that Tagalog wasn't a pidgin form of Spanish, but I wanted to be sure. Having the internet at my fingertips makes looking for facts so easy!

tonyburton / Moderator


Jan 10, 2012, 12:52 PM

Post #37 of 45 (1869 views)

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Re: [La Isla] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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The connections between Mexico and the Philippines are far greater than many people realize.
For example, see:
Mexico’s long connection with the Philippines – exploration, seafaring and geopolitics

Cultural exchanges between Mexico and the Philippines ,
and, somewhat more tongue-in-cheek:
Divine sage, the Philippines’ unwanted import from Mexico


(This post was edited by tonyburton on Jan 10, 2012, 12:52 PM)

smokesilver

Jan 10, 2012, 6:24 PM

Post #38 of 45 (1831 views)

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Re: [La Isla] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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Having been stationed with the USAF in the Philippines for 18 months I learned a little about that country. For one thing the more educated people in the country almost universally speak Spanish as well as the local language. Most people speak English either very well or to some degree since it is required in the school systems. The local language most often spoken is Tagalog. In some areas Tagalog is the second language. For a while I was temporarily stationed an Zambales Province which is north of Manila. Zambales was spoken there and the second language was Tagalog. English was a third language and most spoke it to some degree. Many also spoke Spanish. The Philippines has dozens of separate languages.

La Isla


Jan 10, 2012, 6:52 PM

Post #39 of 45 (1823 views)

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Re: [smokesilver] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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Thanks for the interesting post, smokesilver. I wonder if Spanish is spoken by Filipinos of all ages, or is it mostly older people who know the language? Did they learn it in school?

smokesilver

Jan 10, 2012, 7:05 PM

Post #40 of 45 (1818 views)

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Re: [La Isla] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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As I recall not all spoke it. Those who I knew that spoke it were relatively young. Keeping in mind that I did not know many elderly Filipinos. Many punlic schools teach Spanish and all of the catholic schools teach it as do the colleges. As a matter of fact I took Spanish at the University of the Philippines branch at Clark AFB.

La Isla


Jan 10, 2012, 7:19 PM

Post #41 of 45 (1815 views)

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Re: [smokesilver] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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When were you there? I ask because Filipinos I have known in the US have told me that it is not spoken as much as it had been and that it was much more common for people to know English.

smokesilver

Jan 10, 2012, 7:32 PM

Post #42 of 45 (1810 views)

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Re: [La Isla] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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I was there in the early 60's. However as I said earlier it is still taught in many schools as well as college. If you read any Blogs fm the PI you will very quickly realize that many Filipinos will know some spanish. Granted it is no longer the second language as that is now English.

eyePad

Jan 12, 2012, 6:05 PM

Post #43 of 45 (1743 views)

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Re: [smokesilver] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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I actually work with some filipinos and I am pretty sure that Spanish is not spoken to any great extent nowadays (meaning in 2011) in the Phillipines. I'm pretty sure it is not spoken by the upper classes. Basically it is not spoken in the phillipines any longer. English is the second language people learn in many schools. There are loan words galore from Spanish but to my ear it is definitely NOT a creole by any means. I periodically have this discussion, usually with people who don't really know the phillipines and insist spanish is common (not that I'm an expert, I just work with a couple dozen people from the phillipines, most of whom are young and none speak Spanish). As I recall wikipedia has Spanish in the phillipines down in the low single digits, or maybe lower.

for example, "wallum problema" == no problem. But this is a loan word, not a common enough construction to be a creole.
apáñatelas como puedas


(This post was edited by eyePad on Jan 12, 2012, 9:02 PM)

Minerva909

Jan 14, 2012, 7:36 AM

Post #44 of 45 (1662 views)

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Re: [johanson] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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Actually, Johanson, Esperanza, as La Isla and Sfmacaws rightly noticed, there are several Maya languages: read somewhere there are now 32 of them still alive and spoken.

I hoped they were similar, so speaking some Q'eqchi' (predominant among Maya languages in Belize, next frequent being Mopan and the least frequent Yucatecan, the language of Mexican Maya fro Yucatan) I would be able to understand some Yucatecan.

I learned i was wrong when I got a Yucatecan Maya colleague. She had to learn Q'eqchi to understand it, just like any non-Maya. And I know a Q'eqchi-Mopan married couple complaining that none of them can understand their mother-in-law, as the mothers do not speak English.

Well, what's another language? I shall pick up some Yucatecan Maya with pleasure ( I am already learning some from Anita, my colleague).

It shall be fun, as learning a new language always is. Goethe, the famous German romantic poet said it best: Soviel Sprachen du sprichsts, sooftmal bisst du Mench" (or rougly: You become a different human being with every language you speak)

Although one important phrase in Q'eqchi: "Ma wan li ahin sa li nima?" ( or: are there crocodiles in the river? ) I won't have to learn in Yucatecan... since there are no rivers in northern Yucatan.

Yes, Johanson, spoken Dutch is quite easily understood by a Swedish speaker, even a non-native Swedish speaker like me: I am Swedish by citizenship and have been for the last four decades, spoke Swedish with my Swedish spouse, and my daughter ( now it being Swenglish sometimes), but I am ethnically Polish-German, born and raised in Poland, with German as a second language, Russian third ( as it was compulsory from the fifth grade of elementary school) English fourth, Latin fifth (two languages I had in high school: four years of each) then my now "native" (lol) Swedish and so on: a bit of French, Italian, Spanish, a smattering of Arabic... all picked up while in early retirement living and traveling extensively around the western part of the Mediterranean Sea... People bilingual from birth have the least difficulties learning new languages.

And, yes, I am glad krona is not an euro, when I am to exchange it for euros, but if I have to exchange it for US dollars, it does not make much difference. Which is good, as I have more dollars to possibly exchange to kronas than vice versa. :-)


(This post was edited by Minerva909 on Jan 14, 2012, 8:22 AM)

michoacan

Jan 24, 2012, 11:53 AM

Post #45 of 45 (1494 views)

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Re: [Minerva909] I wonder... how much more comfortable is southern Mexico comparing to Belize?

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Thx everyone for the interesting discussion. Wow I had no idea that Belize was so marginal for shopping.
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