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Moisheh

Dec 3, 2011, 10:02 AM

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Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Really? Do you know anyone who is leaving?? Read this from El Universal:

MEXICO, D.F., diciembre 3 (EL UNIVERSAL).- Alrededor de 60% de estadounidenses retirados que viven en México contemplan la posibilidad de emigrar ante los problemas de inseguridad que enfrentan algunas zonas del país, revela un estudio de la International Community Foundation (ICF).
El documento puntualiza que ese sector deja una derrama anual aproximada de 15 mil millones de dólares (mdd) a 18 mil mdd, con un gasto promedio de mil a dos mil dólares mensuales por cada uno de ellos.
De acuerdo con la ICF, en México radican un millón y medio de estadounidenses retirados, de modo que si el 60% decide emigrar, se quedarán en el país alrededor de 600 mil turistas y la derrama anual caería a 10 mil 800 mdd.
Gloria Guevara, titular de la Secretaría de Turismo (Sectur), quien encabezó la inauguración del Primer foro nacional de jubilados norteamericanos: Expectativa y Soluciones de Vida en México, expuso que la dependencia impulsa segmentos como el turismo médico y de descanso, que fortalezcan la llegada de jubilados de Estados Unidos.
Agregó que son dos millones de estadounidenses jubilados los que viven en México y que la cifra va en aumento por las condiciones económicas favorables, el clima y los atractivos que ofrece el país.
Richard Kiy, presidente de la ICF, dijo que la investigación hecha este año arroja que 79% de los retirados que residen en México tomaron la decisión de venir aquí debido al crecimiento en su estilo de vida, y a los bajos costos con respecto a su país.
Explicó que la tendencia de los estadounidenses al jubilarse a los 55 años es poner su propia empresa encaminada a turismo, salud, apoyo para aprender idiomas y restaurantes.
Las ciudades que más beneficiadas con los proyectos de esas nuevas generaciones de jubilados son San Miguel Allende, Puerto Vallarta, La Paz y Los Cabos.
Guevara reveló que en 2012 el mundo maya y su profecía del fin del mundo será un eje muy importante sobre el que girará las estrategias para atraer más turistas al país.
Estimó que ese atractivo puede atraer al menos 55 millones de turistas en los próximos dos años y 500 millones en la próxima década.



mazbook1


Dec 3, 2011, 10:31 AM

Post #2 of 43 (9301 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Typical Mexican "yellow press"!

Having been the proprietor of the only English-language bookstore in Mazatlán for 14 years, I know a LOT of the expats here, and I participate (to a limited extent) and read the 3 local Internet forums daily. I won't say that none of the retired expats here have left due to "insecurity", but it has probably played a part in the reasons that newcomers, who have ended up leaving, give for leaving. Although this mostly happens because of failure to overcome the "cultural shock" of living in and inability to adapt to a completely different culture, the "perceived insecurity" seems to be a factor in their decision to return NOB.


AlanMexicali


Dec 3, 2011, 11:52 AM

Post #3 of 43 (9269 views)

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Re: [mazbook1] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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I feel there are reasons that can be calculated into this formula. Definitely cultural shock would be hard on many people who make the move and rent. Another could be the cost of buying and selling homes in Mexico. Another could be aging and the need for more care by their children and loved one back home. Another could be finances and the cost of staples rising higher in Mexico and rents rising in some expat areas. Another could be health care. Also the fact that less retires come as others leave as before the problems of security which is now widely publicized. The above article does seem to leave out many factors and does concentrate on the obvious slant it wants to project. How many are not registered with the immigration? Who said a commentator has to know his subject intimately to decipher statistics to make a living. Does this happen often in any country? Mexican news seems to be status quo in most cases.


(This post was edited by AlanMexicali on Dec 3, 2011, 11:59 AM)


morgaine7


Dec 3, 2011, 11:59 AM

Post #4 of 43 (9263 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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I'd read the ICF report some time ago and didn't recall it saying any such thing. Here's the link to a summary:
http://www.banderasnews.com/...icfretireetrends.htm

I suspect that here's where they got the 60%:
"When asked what key factors would lead U.S. retirees to leave Mexico, the #1 reason noted by 57.6% of respondents would be a noticeable increase in crime targeted towards U.S. retirees or tourists, followed by 44.5% who identified declining environmental quality of their adopted community due to increased sewage runoff, litter, and water pollution)."

Earlier in the summary, it's stated:
"In spite of growing concerns in the United States about narco-violence in Mexico's border cities, only 7% of retirees surveyed reported that public safety and security concerns have reduced the frequency or duration of their trips to Mexico."

Just sayin' ...

Kate


Moisheh

Dec 3, 2011, 3:29 PM

Post #5 of 43 (9202 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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I was quite surprised by the article. I certainly do not know any who have left for the reasons mentioned. If they were talking about tourists that would be different. The ICF seems like a legit org. with no anti Mexico agenda. Rather they promote helping people in Mexico!

Moisheh


stevebrtx

Dec 4, 2011, 5:54 AM

Post #6 of 43 (9103 views)

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Re: [Moisheh] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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My neighbor who rents my casita has been coming to MX for 20 years and this is her last, she's even considering leaving early. She talked to a lady yesterday in PV who is pulling out. We know two ladies who have come here the past 3 years who will not come this year.

People often contact me through the weather site and ask about coming down, one came in June and has decided against moving here, another came down in Oct, has decided the same, a lady from FL was coming in Sept, delayed until Jan and now has delayed again, mostly out of concern, so yes, I see and hear the sounds of goodbye to a country we all love, but has quite simply become dysfunctional and unsafe.

I've often compare the current situation to Prohibition days in the States, they cleaned it up because they had three necessary things, the FBI who would kill or capture the bad guys, a judicial system that would convict them and a prison system that would hold them in less than lavish accommodations - sadly MX has none of the above.

Bad things happen in the US and Canada, but you have a reasonable expectation of something being done to catch the bad guys and convict them. When you read comments on the boards and Lakesidecrimewatch.com, there is no expectation of that here and that's exactly what happens in many or most cases, nothing.


YucaLandia


Dec 4, 2011, 8:19 AM

Post #7 of 43 (9051 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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I've often compare the current situation to Prohibition days in the States, they cleaned it up because they had three necessary things, the FBI who would kill or capture the bad guys, a judicial system that would convict them and a prison system that would hold them in less than lavish accommodations - sadly MX has none of the above.


If we assume that expats are leaving Mexico in larger numbers than in the past, and if we further assume that a presumed loss of security is the main reason, then it's worth looking at the realities and potential solutions.

Does anyone really believe that USA's violent crime rates related to Prohibition ended because of some mythical cleanup by J. Edgar and the Judiciary? Hoover worked relentlessly to promote this mythology that ignored the effects of legalizing booze - ending the lucrative illegal trade by mobsters. The mob and mobsters continued, expanding into Vegas, prostitution, extortion, heroin and cocaine trafficing, corrupting police and judges from LA to NM to KC to Louisiana to Chicago to New York and on and on.

The main change in reducing crime was their loss of revenue - by ending Prohibition.

This shows that as long as the US demand for illegal drugs remains strong, then gangsters, mobsters, petty thugs, and narco traficantes will prosper, expand, and continue to meet that demand with obscenely high profit margin products.

Glitzy, high-profile law enforcement efforts are little more than shows put on by government to justify ever-larger budgets and more power.

A second key to improving security for ordinary people is for public opinion to rise up to excoriate and dishonor thuggery. As happened in Sicily and Italy, it takes a public who finally becomes intolerant of their sons and grandsons and nephews becoming criminals - disowning these men and shaming them - versus Bonny & Clyde / Narco Corrido adulation and admiration of these truly horrible behaviors.

As long as illegal drugs and US consumption drive $10's billions of illegal drug profits, and until both the US populace and Mexican populace overwhelmingly excoriate the various mobs, gangs, narco traficantes, their lifestyles, express secuestros, etc. and shame, revile, and disown these bums, their girlfriends, & their scummy ways, only then will support for police, military, and judiciary actions against them succeed. Recreating J. Edgar & his boys is not the answer.
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(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Dec 4, 2011, 8:20 AM)


joaquinx


Dec 4, 2011, 8:33 AM

Post #8 of 43 (9038 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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I've often compare the current situation to Prohibition days in the States, they cleaned it up because they had three necessary things, the FBI who would kill or capture the bad guys, a judicial system that would convict them and a prison system that would hold them in less than lavish accommodations - sadly MX has none of the above.


These three items were and are necessary, but not to combat crime alone. Their presents was and is necessary to give the people moral support in their resistance. If a person is subject to extortion and the government (police) offer no protection and the courts no prosecution, the people will simply sit back and pay the piper.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.


YucaLandia


Dec 4, 2011, 8:58 AM

Post #9 of 43 (9023 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Quote
I've often compare the current situation to Prohibition days in the States, they cleaned it up because they had three necessary things, the FBI who would kill or capture the bad guys, a judicial system that would convict them and a prison system that would hold them in less than lavish accommodations - sadly MX has none of the above.


These three items were and are necessary, but not to combat crime alone. Their presents was and is necessary to give the people moral support in their resistance. If a person is subject to extortion and the government (police) offer no protection and the courts no prosecution, the people will simply sit back and pay the piper.


I agree. Which is why I said that broad public support of police, prosecutors and judges is necessary, along with legal reforms, like ending Prohibition to eliminate the source of $$$.

Saying it a different way: Crowning / anointing another J. Edgar Hoover and giving him his own private internal police force is not the answer. People who have found themselves or family members as targets of the FBI's 7 decades of on-going criminal activities and incompetence, are not eager to see J. Edgar's fiefdom re-created here in Mexico.

It seems better to address the real causes of the problems and to pursue proven solutions, than to create new personality-driven and ideology-driven special police agencies.
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stevebrtx

Dec 4, 2011, 9:22 AM

Post #10 of 43 (8999 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Ok Steve, address it, what are you going to do today, tomorrow, next week and next month to suddenly alleviate a problem that is systemic and cancerous on the sovereignty of Mexico?


YucaLandia


Dec 4, 2011, 10:02 AM

Post #11 of 43 (8987 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Steve,
It's easy to throw down the gauntlet: Challenges are easy to make, but harder to respond-to. I encourage you to also offer fact based workable and productiive approaches and solutions. J. Edgar & the FBI's actions did not end or even substantially curtail criminal activities during Prohibition, so, the creation of ideology-driven secret police organizations are not a good solution to today's problems.

"... address it, what are you going to do today, tomorrow, next week and next month ..."
First: Identify the actual problems.

Second: Identify realistic solutions to those problems, examining factual history to identify and choose ones that have worked.

Third: Match workable solutions to the current problems, and identify the specific characteristics that are unique to the current crisis which require custom-fit solutions that are politically and culturally appropriate.

Fourth: Publicly report and describe both problems and solutions accurately and factually

Fifth: Identify false, flawed, and problematic counter-proposals that have not worked or that have unintended negative consequences. Publicly report and describe the flaws and fallacies in the inappropriate counter-proposals, to focus efforts on appropriate workable solutions.

Sixth: Support Mexicans who build consensus with essential groups, including the press and public.

Seventh: As an expatriate who has no legal right to participate in anything that affects Mexican political activities, I can only support and encourage my Mexican family and friends who ae working on these issues. I can write letters and converse with my US Congressional Reps and Senators to describe Items 1 - 5, and to encourage them to support effective legislative and policy changes.

Eighth: Vote for candidates who promote workable solutions.

Ninth: Encourage others to focus their energies on productive, effective, appropriate, workable solutions.

The good news? I have been doing all 9 items - a bit of which you can read in months of earlier posts.

Your turn,
steve
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stevebrtx

Dec 4, 2011, 10:48 AM

Post #12 of 43 (8964 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Seventh: As an expatriate who has no legal right to participate in anything that affects Mexican political activities, I can only support and encourage my Mexican family and friends who ae working on these issues. I can write letters and converse with my US Congressional Reps and Senators to describe Items 1 - 5, and to encourage them to support effective legislative and policy changes.

You could have left out all the rest, as a gringo you ain't squat, get used to it.

The only way things will get better is when Mexicans decide to take back their country - if ever, and it dang sure ain't going to be from any cheerleading we do from the sidelines. We're just a part of their food chain, an easy source of revenue when needed. Here we've had a rash of ATM card thefts, the banks can't figure it out? - wow, how bankerly of them, but they have noticed it's only US and CA cards being hit - duh, maybe they don't see that as stealing as they know the NOB banks will reimburse, who knows, but I can tell you I've lived here long enough to take it as it is and don't expect any more than it is.

And trust me, no one, absolutely NO ONE in the American Consulate, in DC or anywhere NOB is going to lift a finger to help. When we cross the border - we're on our own and if you imagine it any different, I've got 20 acres of land in CO to sell you.


Gringal

Dec 4, 2011, 10:49 AM

Post #13 of 43 (8963 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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There was an excellent series on PBS in recent months about the Prohibition era.......I watched it and learned more than I had known, to say the least. It seems that when liquor of all sorts was being sold, a huge part of the U.S. govt.'s revenue came from......surprise.......taxes on booze. Wine, beer and spirits. My oh my. So much for the WCTU.

Too bad the Mexican government doesn't legalize all the stuff and tax it. Some good could come out of that, since nobody is doing without it as an illegal substance, any more than they did during Prohibition. Just saying.

Meanwhile, the hot heads NOB are obviously waiting with bated breath for an excuse to establish a new Monroe doctrine and "clean up" Mexico. More like clean up on Mexico in various ways. Aargh. Where will it end?


AlanMexicali


Dec 4, 2011, 11:03 AM

Post #14 of 43 (8955 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Great insight you have. I see you have a capacity to rationalized from a "big picture" point of view. I also see the federal govt. in Mexico TV ads doing the same with criminal gangs and corruption and drug use. The parading of the captured criminals on TV and their seeming fearless confession, very popular once caught, and showing videos of crime scenes with decent statistics does have an effect on the general population and the publicized statistics of what gang and who heads it and what is still out there as far a leaders of these gangs that are the current target to get and offering large rewards is in step with what you describe but also does have the populas on guard looking for these guys as their photos are on TV quite often. The federal govt. seems to me doing what I would term, concentrating their resources on cutting the head off of the snake and whenever crime gangs act respond in a police typified manor and use the publicity to alert people what they are doing.


(This post was edited by AlanMexicali on Dec 4, 2011, 11:12 AM)


richmx2


Dec 4, 2011, 11:38 AM

Post #15 of 43 (8934 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Chill, dudes, as we used to say.

There is a lot of research, and there was a lot of discussion a few years back, on how polling data is affected by the way a question is worded. Just asking whether security is a concern among retiree expats is bound to affect the outcome of the poll, and how exactly it was worded is something I don't know. I do know how news stories are written: The headline and lede were written as attention grabbers, and from the discussion here, it worked.

Both the polling results and the news article show that presentation affects perception. That so many of our foreign correspondents in Mexico are from a background in reporting on conflict (look at how many were previously posted to Iraq or Afghanistan) has a lot to do with the overwhelming coverage of the so-called "drug war" in the foreign press. That stevebrtx, from his discussion of replies to queries about dangers in his area, seems to stress the possibility of violent conflict, it's no wonder his feedback is from people put off by that violence.

That's not to say that there is not a perception of insecurity in this country, nor that we are as secure here as we could be. The police state response, as championed by stevebrtx, does have its supporters in Mexico, as does the assumption that a "better" police would somehow resolve the issue. In either case, I'm always reminded of the old saw (attributed to Benjamin Franklin) that those who would trade liberty for security will get neither.

My biases and my perception lead me to consider yet another "resolution" (as if I have anything to say about it) that may just have majority support within the Republic. Given that the "drug war" is primarily a reflection of the present administration's policies, one sees strong support for a change in administration at the ballot box. That many of those looking for policy changes also see the violence as a symptom of social and economic problems, there is also wide support for changes in policies that do not directly relate to narcotics exports but are seen as more effective means to a long-range solution to the present security situation.


http://mexfiles.net
http://mexicobookpublishers.com


YucaLandia


Dec 4, 2011, 3:20 PM

Post #16 of 43 (8898 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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"You could have left out all the rest, as a gringo you ain't squat, get used to it."

Interesting. My Mexican friends and family members would laugh. Maybe you've found that Mexicans treat your views like they "ain't squat", but to generalize that to all expats would mean that Mexicans don't listen to or respect what expats say or think. Since I don't hang out with expats much, maybe "gringo" views in general "ain't squat"?

The expats I hang out with are married to Mexicans, are heavily embedded in their (our) Mexican communities, and I can say that our families and friends actually go out of their way to ask our opinions, understandings, and perspectives. I've heard these same family members and friends repeat the insights and gems they've picked up from their Canadian and US friends.

Maybe it's because we're not "gringos"?
steve
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smokesilver

Dec 4, 2011, 7:02 PM

Post #17 of 43 (8843 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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The US govt won't really try and stop the cross border drug problem. Why? The cartels launder $10's of Billions yearly into US banks. The End.


Axixic


Dec 5, 2011, 4:29 AM

Post #18 of 43 (8797 views)

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Re: [smokesilver] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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The US govt won't really try and stop the cross border drug problem. Why? The cartels launder $10's of Billions yearly into US banks. The End.


That money ends up leaving the U.S. eventually, but the U.S. has a very large prison industry and if drugs were legal or completely stopped, localities would lose billions of dollars. Prisons would close, federal officers would lose their jobs, local law enforcement would lay off, hundreds of courtrooms would close getting rid of hundreds of judges, prosecutors state and federal would lose jobs, criminal lawyers would lose billions in defense fees.

Drugs keep people employed and money flowing North and South of the border.


stevebrtx

Dec 5, 2011, 6:04 AM

Post #19 of 43 (8774 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Steve, you misunderstand my comment, I fully understand how my views are perceived and what part I play in this society, see kaching - I believe I put a rather sharp point on it. The problem here is that apparently you haven't accepted how you are perceived and realized that you are just a gringo, you will always be, you could live here 40 years and become a citizen and you will always be just another old gringo, it's just the nature of the beast, live with it, deal with it as necessary. You may be well received, but when push comes to shove and the bacon is in the fire, you my friend will be what you always have been - odd man out.

In the US and Canada we are nations of immigrants from all over and every society and culture, we see people first as Americans, then of ethnic or geographic decent. Mexico has not been that kind of culture so they see you first as a gringo, then one who lives among them. You often hear it or see it in print; "oh, they are an American who has lived in MX all their adult lives etc". They aren't Mexicans who originally came from New Hampshire. It's not a bad thing as long as you read the rule book and understand where the playing field is flat and where it is not and never will be.

I accept that reality and live accordingly, I stopped pushing against the mountain some time ago. I for one came here to be left alone, for the most part it's working out just fine, I've learned to accept things at this end of life that I would have fought against and tried to change in earlier years, no mas.


smokesilver

Dec 5, 2011, 9:44 AM

Post #20 of 43 (8709 views)

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Re: [Axixic] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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That's correct. Everyone wins but those who are incarcerated and the US taxpayers.


AlanMexicali


Dec 5, 2011, 1:47 PM

Post #21 of 43 (8661 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Steve.

I went to your site. nice. I am wondering if you speak Spanish at least at an intermediate level? I have not noticed anything regarding Mexicans being at times acting odd towards me, except a few times, however I do not live in an expat setting. There may be a few factors involved that I have not had to deal with.


YucaLandia


Dec 5, 2011, 2:17 PM

Post #22 of 43 (8651 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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I guess stevebrtx's and my different experiences may explain that some expats consider themselves as outsiders, and that they are better-off leaving Mexico. It describes how some expats integrate and make Mexico their home, and how others see themselves as permanent outsiders / permanent foreigners.

Stevebrtx says he "came here to be alone".
Instead, I - and other expats with Mexican spouses - came here to be part of a family.

Stevebrtx says that he thinks that because he believes that he is a gringo and a perpetual outsider, then he believes that:
" you are just a gringo, you will always be, you could live here 40 years and become a citizen and you will always be just another old gringo,"

In contrast to his beliefs, my mother-in-law calls me son ( hijo ), and mis tres cuñados y mi cuñada affectionately call me hermano, just as they call each other. My little neighbor Eric (5) yells out "Tio Esteve! Tio Esteve!" every time he hears my voice. My 101 year old tia Candy calls me sobrino and eagerly asks my wife when I'm coming back to visit. Does this sound like I am "just another old gringo", like some old shoe?

My family has sent their children to visit and travel with us while we were in the USA - hardly the act of how you treat an outsider. My family's warmth and concern for me and for my American daughter consistently far surpass perfunctory courtesies.

"... I've learned to accept things at this end of life that I would have fought against and tried to change in earlier years,..."

We do have choices about what roles we play in other people's lives.
You say you want to be left alone and be alone.
You describe your paths that are either: to fight about things and to try to change things - or give up in resignation?

I choose to increase the size of the circle of people I love and care about, and to carefully make connections without either fighting or changing things.

This seems to loop back around to some explanations of why some expats stay, and why some never quite put down roots and consider leaving. We each seem to have gotten what we expected and chose,
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


Rolly


Dec 5, 2011, 2:24 PM

Post #23 of 43 (8649 views)

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Re: [AlanMexicali] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Many years ago, before I retired to México, I visited Manzanillo as often as I could. I was friends with a family of taxi drivers. One of them told me I was the first nice norte americano he had ever met. WOW

Here in Lerdo, the only even slightly negative thing that has come my way was a mild comment from a tránsito who thought my Spanish should be better since I had several years here. I agreed with him.

Rolly Pirate


Moisheh

Dec 5, 2011, 3:02 PM

Post #24 of 43 (8633 views)

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Re: [Rolly] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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What has happened to this site? No matter what the subject matter of a post it gets lost in a battle in no time at all. Having been on this site since the days of Windows 95 I hold Mexconnect to a higher standard. Although there are a few who really have a vast knowledge of Mexico there appears to be a lot of know it alls. I long for the "Jennifer" days! If not for Yucalandia and Rolly I would remove mexconnect from my fave list. This used to be a site where people came to share or gain knowledge.

Moisheh


stevebrtx

Dec 5, 2011, 3:31 PM

Post #25 of 43 (8626 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Retired people leaving Mexico???

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Steve, I'm happy for you, in fact, I'm happy for me. Each of us has our vision and version of reality as it applies to us, I wish you happiness and fulfillment of yours, mine has a bit of built in insurance which, like all insurance, I hope I never have to use or test.
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