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Chapala Payaso

Dec 1, 2011, 1:45 PM

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Chapala City Hall demonstration

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The natives, mainly Ajijic types, had a protest demonstration at City Hall today at noon. One of the spokespersons announced to the gathered throng that the meeting was over and that she would relay to them what the president of Chapala told her. My impression is that she had some smoke blown at her and bought into it. But after she had no interest in talking to me at all, shutting me down, I just left. So there could be more to the story.

The facts are that cops cannot be everywhere all the time and, using Willy Sutton's reasoning, the crooks rob in Ajijic because that's where the money is. I figure the cops will appease the folks in the short term and then, little by little, things will revert to status quo. I hope I am wrong.



Axixic


Dec 1, 2011, 4:00 PM

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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I think you are right. Crime happens in the U.S. too. Cops patrol all day and supposedly there is not graft protecting the criminals. People get robbed and sometimes killed. It happens everyday in the U.S. What can the police do? The criminals will hide from the police until they see an all clear and a target. The police can't be everywhere all the time.

If people are that worried they can hire their own personal 24 hour security guards.


FHBOY

Dec 2, 2011, 1:27 PM

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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I found you, and I am glad.

I agree, but what is the status quo? From what I have heard, these types of crime are atypical, and would you say we only hear the "Chicken Littles" when they happen? Since I am not there (yet) I can only go by what I read, and in general, people do not seem overly upset: that is, the sky is not falling, it is just a few drops. What do you think?


Chapala Payaso

Dec 2, 2011, 3:24 PM

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Re: [FHBOY] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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I am not sure what it is that you are asking but will give it a shot. A crime ending in the death of the victim is either 100% or 0%. When I was assaulted and robbed in my home, I found it very distressing for a number of reasons we do not have to go into. I wrestled with one of the 4 and was clunked on the head with a pistol and my thought processes are not what they used to be. No, the sky is not falling and it is safer here than in many US or Canadian neighborhoods. But it is not as safe as it was 5 or even 10 years ago. Addicts are more and more turning to crime to pay for their addictions. They seem to have less and less regard for life. I never thought that this stuff would come lakeside and when it did I thought it would go away. I was wrong. As I see it, the neighborhoods will have to police themselves and that is what we are doing here. A few of these types hanging from trees would send a message in a language they understand. If not, then escalation would be the next step. People must take care of themselves and their neighbors. Depending on any 3rd party is futile. The bottom line for me it that although it appears to be getting worse it is still better than elsewhere. At least for now.


chinagringo


Dec 2, 2011, 3:33 PM

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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Copy of a post that I made on another forum:
It is an absolute tragedy that someone had to die to wake up the Gringo community! Up until this point, it has been easier to play ostrich and deny there may just be a problem developing since people haven't been directly affected. How many times has each of us heard the mantra: "I haven't been personally affected by crime"? The real tragedy is that Mexican upon Mexican or cartel on cartel crimes have been easy to dismiss. Crime isn't something that goes away by itself and in reality, it is something that escalates exponentially.

In reading through the various conversations being conducted both on this forum and TOB, many solutions being offered up are NOB type. There is an apparent lack of understanding of just how the system works or doesn't work in Mexico. It is all well and good for people to suggest paying higher property taxes or creating a fund to finance the hiring of additional police but is that even a feasible concept given the workings of the "system". I would venture a guess that the Municipality of Chapala might get penalized on their normal State and Federal funding when the realization hit that they were receiving assistance from outside sources. The Mayor has already stated that funding is tight and politicians are famous for robbing Peter to pay Paul.

One concept that might be effective is a setup similar to: Crime Stoppers - http://www.crimestoppersnm.org/
This originated in Albuquerque in 1976 and has since expanded to cities across the US. Albuquerque's demographic is that there is a high number of Hispanics and American Indians, two groups who have traditionally lacked trust in law enforcement. This organization is a non-profit and receives no tax dollars. It certainly wasn't a instant success but over time gained credibility. Funding is from private donations, corporate sponsors and private businesses who have a vested interest in the community. Certainly, there will be issues with gaining the trust of all citizens and then getting the various responsible law enforcement agencies to react to the tips.

Just throwing an idea out there!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



FHBOY

Dec 5, 2011, 10:09 AM

Post #6 of 45 (6895 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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Your post and answer were very good. I, too, would not call this the sky falling by any means, and it certainly appears to be a lot safer in Ajijic than even in Baltimore. The post following yours is interesting also. I do not know if any NOB solution [although yours is a bit extreme :)] can work. I mean there are already gated communities, houses built behind walls and gates, what more can you ask for, moats and alligators?

Could it be that people, gringos and natives, just have to learn that the 21st century brings with it new things, that what was no longer is? Perhaps even in Lakeside, people will have to become more aware of where they go, when they go there and what they do. Look, in the US, you don't go flashing your cash unless you are real naive. You say it is not like it was 5 or 10 years ago, you are right, nothing is. Still and all, I am not deterred to move there, it has got to be better than here, just gotta bring some street smarts is all.


(This post was edited by FHBOY on Dec 5, 2011, 10:16 AM)


Chapala Payaso

Dec 5, 2011, 11:15 AM

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Re: [FHBOY] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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In my not so humble opinion, to survive in life adaptation is a must. As that fact relates to this problem, how people respond to a very real threat depends on the degree and nature of the threat. The mindset of the enemy must be assessed and dealt with accordingly. Western hemisphere people are not accustomed to dealing effectively with barbarism and senseless violence. These people must be dealt with in a method they relate to. Otherwise they perceive you as weak and not willing to confront them. And therein lies one of the problems.

The Byzantine mindset and that of those in the middle east would be examples of cultures understanding and relating to barbarism. Life is cheap. If they want something, they will take it from you. If you need to be killed, then so be it. This mind set has been incorporated into the drug cartels, probably originating in the middle east.

You believe that my methodology is extreme. I see it as a willingness to apply whatever solutions are necessary to alleviate the problem. The namby pamby human rights methodology may be politically correct but is not effective. As it relates to Mexico, for instance, the only ones with guns are the bad guys and police many of whom are the bad guys. Protect yourself with extreme prejudice. Walls, moats and crocodiles won't protect you. You will protect yourself or you will perish.


FHBOY

Dec 6, 2011, 7:10 AM

Post #8 of 45 (6787 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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I see your point and understand it. How you go about adapting is a personal choice, yours fits you but it may not fit me. Neither of them are "wrong", it is just how we choose to cope. Will non-confrontational put me more (or less) at risk than you? Neither of us can say until it happens.

Not that it matters, but I respect how you view the world and that does not exclude us from meaningful dialog.


Chapala Payaso

Dec 6, 2011, 7:21 AM

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Re: [FHBOY] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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Everything we do in life is risk taking to some degree. There is a saying, from where I forget, that goes, "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees." More or less how I feel depending on my odds of living on my feet once again. Your position is better fitted for you but having come from a long family of warrior class folks, while I may have to take your position because of the odds and circumstances such as risk to others, I would always be looking for a way to get the upper hand and end the situation with prejudice.


Gringal

Dec 8, 2011, 8:23 AM

Post #10 of 45 (6620 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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The recent murder of a lawyer in central Ajijic village is a case in point. The last report I read said that the man turned and attempted to subdue the robber, at which time he was fatally shot in the chest.

Now his wife is a widow. IMO, hands raised and "no problemo" while allowing the robber to take his wallet might have been a more life-extending approach. This is in no way excusing the senseless murder (the wallet was found on the body after the perp ran) or blaming the victim for what was probably an instinctive act on his part.

Men have been raised in Western culture to have a horror of behaving in a "cowardly" manner. This may or may not make any sense. Most women know better than to attempt a counter-attack to protect their property, but then, they have been raised to be pragmatic rather than heroic. They will often risk their lives to protect their family, however.


stevebrtx

Dec 8, 2011, 8:43 AM

Post #11 of 45 (6607 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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I agree, I'd have no problema giving up my money clip and might even invite him in to to pick and choose from my inventory of goodies - such as it is?

What little I have is not worth even a scuff or scrape. Sadly, it was probably more a "gut" reaction without consideration and given a moment to think on it the results would hopefully have been dramatically different.
http://www.chapalaweather.net


Vichil

Dec 8, 2011, 8:45 AM

Post #12 of 45 (6607 views)

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Re: [Gringal] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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A lot of things are being said about what happened and one of them is that there was no witness, I think I read that in the GR so how do we know what really happened?
Who saw the victim fight back?
Some people who were on the street saw two young men take off, the MP says there was only one.
We really have never a credible official accounting of what happened. The MP did not bother to show their face at the meeting and the Chief of police offered no follow up either. Mum is the word. I sure hope they catch these criminals but I am not hopeful.


bournemouth

Dec 8, 2011, 9:45 AM

Post #13 of 45 (6592 views)

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Re: [Vichil] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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The story in the Guad. Reporter said the two "suspects" are Ajijic residents and known to have a bad record - but not another word anywhere about that - just officialdom trying to blame non-locals - it's truly a sad and sorry time.


don pedro


Dec 8, 2011, 3:33 PM

Post #14 of 45 (6548 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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i just got back from cuba but that has nothing to do with the goings on around here based primarily on a very nasty robbery that happened just before i left and involved the murder of one of the victims. i've been spending a bit of time catching up on all the boards. quite frankly all i see is a bunch of shrieking ferners thinking their foreign ways are going to be accepted here.
that includes some people that don't even live here that believe neighbourhood watch crap is going to work too. that's been here complete with signage for at least 4 years. them signs don't cost much-jaja! been real effective too-SNORK!
so have yer huge meetings and a few follow ups-feel better now? these muni, state and fed gummints gonna do it their way-not yours. payaso pretty much got it right except using the word barbarism perhaps. there's gonna be a flurry of activity fer a while-but then?
this is a sovereign country ain't it!
one board even suggested us bikers put on special vests and police the neighbourhoods for the cops until there's more of them.
ain't gonna happen dreamers. our club has 12 members and 8 of them is mexican. wadda buncha silly people that ponder all this really dumb crap.
so far payaso got a good handle.a robber using violence makes sense to him though, anywhere ya go when the victim won't give up the goods.
http://chapalamexicoinfo.createforumhosting.com
naivete is a chronIc disease and by its very nature;the afflicted never know they have it.-SNORK!


Chapala Payaso

Dec 8, 2011, 4:35 PM

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Re: [don pedro] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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You stated, in part, "...a robber using violence makes sense to him...."

I am not sure how you meant this. Violence makes little sense unless it is a reaction to potential damage to you or those you love. I understand the mind set of the robber and that violence is an option he will use without hesitation. It is not that it makes sense to me, it is merely that I accept that it is a part of his modus. Act accordingly as circumstances dictate.


(This post was edited by Chapala Payaso on Dec 8, 2011, 4:37 PM)


Vichil

Dec 8, 2011, 5:29 PM

Post #16 of 45 (6520 views)

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Re: [bournemouth] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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If they are the original 2 guys they stopped they probably did not murder Chris K. They are bad news but they are not in their 20´s and not well dressed either. They are cholos from 6th corner in their 30´s and dressed as cholos. One of the lived in the States but is limping and cannot run very fast,so they probably did something but not what they are arrested for.. They are part of the usual suspects around here.
Meanwhile it sounds like a bunch of 20 year old were being arrested today so hopefully one if not it is good they are off the street for a while.
You are right pretty sad time.


Bennie García

Dec 9, 2011, 6:43 AM

Post #17 of 45 (6453 views)

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Re: [Chapala Payaso] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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In Reply To
Your position is better fitted for you but having come from a long family of warrior class folks,


What exactly are warrior class folks?


Chapala Payaso

Dec 9, 2011, 7:10 AM

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Re: [Bennie García] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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Bennie, I guess it is a term that we have used in my family as long as I can remember. All of the male children served in the military as far back as family records reveal. The term is pretty much home spun but I interpret it as follows. As you are aware, there are pacifists who serve their country in different modes than fighting in wars. They also serve. Then there are the folks who pick up the gauntlet serve a stint or more in the time of need and in the manner selected by the military. Others, not fit physically or mentally, serve such as in factories, bomber plants, etc. supporting their country in a time of need. Was our country always right? Not only no, but hell no. The citizens voted these decision makers in and I believe, with some exceptions like now, that they were acting in good faith and we served our country under their leadership.

Think of an ant colony. Workers, soldiers, etc. Our family served as soldiers or, if you will, warriors. Why? That's a good question too. I think it is a part of the family mind set. But that is for another day.


FHBOY

Dec 9, 2011, 7:40 AM

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Re: [Gringal] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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I am reading this with great interest. Chapala Payaso and I do not agree on methods but agree that this is a problem. I would not question his values or his reactions and should move on from there.

There is no doubt that the good ole American "Let's form a neighborhood watch" is too Andy Hardy in another place, with another culture, unless you are more like CP and could to become vigilantes. I can see it now, a group of "more mature" gringos patrolling a municipality, without weapons...never work.

I do not blame the victim either...those who did this are the murderers and need to be found and punished. Gringal is also correct. Resistance in the face of overwhelming odds is futile. It is a question of values. I think of the old Jack Benny joke, "Your money or your life?" "Waitaminunte...I'm thinking!" From what I have read, it is not necessary to go out with a lot of cash and stuff in your pockets, so what would you give up? Even here int he US, my wife carries practically no cash, does not wear flashy jewelry and neither do I. It does not take a genius to know that if you shine too much you will be notices. And unless you are ready and able to defend yourself, why make yourself shine like that?

In school, those who got picked on, "victims", would carry a little extra money to give to extorting "bullies". It was the way they learned to survive...trading something for something more valuable. I feel sorry for this man...no one deserves to be killed and make his spouse alone...but I could not see myself resisting.

But, this was not the reason for this long post. On another forum there was a story of a tourist couple who were staying in Ajijic in a rented house at the end of November and were robbed at gunpoint in the house. They reported the incident to the police and left the country to go home. Their suspicion is that the lock to the house was picked and/or the robbers had a key, as there was not sign of forced entry.

As someone who is coming down for a similar stay and, the following year, coming to retire, I have a couple of questions. Is home invasion a more routine occurrence? Has it been on the rise of late? Are tourists and "newbie ex-pats" more vulnerable? What are the steps to be taken to be reasonably sure one does not have a target on their back or their home?

Feliz Navidad


(This post was edited by FHBOY on Dec 9, 2011, 7:45 AM)


Gringal

Dec 9, 2011, 8:03 AM

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Re: [FHBOY] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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Suggestion: Do change the locks. Do not give the keys to anyone. That includes maids, gardeners, or sometimes, even your landlord. The people working in your home may be honest, but they may have friends or relatives who wouldn't hesitate to borrow those keys and use them.

Be aware that certain manifestations of wealth, like visible "bling" being worn or driving expensive cars may bring you to the attention of those with larcenous intent.

After shopping, drive into your locked area, lock it while noting that no one followed you in, and after that, unload.

Other than that......keep your eyes open and use the kind of common sense you would in a NOB city.

Enjoy your stay. It's a beautiful place. Most of us have no trouble.


chinagringo


Dec 9, 2011, 9:17 AM

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Re: [FHBOY] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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Traveling to Mexico isn't all that different from traveling to other countries around the world.

Start off with a long session in front of a full length mirror and evaluate yourself by asking or evaluating the following:
1) Have I learned to be "street smart"?
2) Do I carry myself in a confident manner?
3) Will I show signs of being nervous or scared when in a new environment?
4) As Gringal stated dress casually without signs of wealth ie. bling,etc. If you have any catalogs of travel clothes, use as an example of just what not to wear (either clothing or accessories). For example: wear a fanny pack and you might as well have a sign on your forehead saying tourist or newbie.

Be smart about where you go and remember that a place which appears safe during the daylight hours may totally change at night!

Enjoy yourself and learn about the wonderful Country of Mexico and the wonderful people.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



(This post was edited by chinagringo on Dec 9, 2011, 9:20 AM)


FHBOY

Dec 9, 2011, 10:41 AM

Post #22 of 45 (6379 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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When you are born and bred in New York City like us, Street Smarts 101 starts at age 5, and you have the res of your life to practice. Funny, we spent some time in PV, and even we could pick out the tourists, while not being identified as one. You are so right! The concern was more over the home invasion. Your suggestions are good common sense and I appreciate them.


chinagringo


Dec 9, 2011, 11:10 AM

Post #23 of 45 (6367 views)

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Re: [FHBOY] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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Certainly didn't intend to be insulting as I had no way of knowing your background. Will leave any comments on home invasions, etc up to the locals as we sold our home 5 years ago and now only visit.
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



FHBOY

Dec 9, 2011, 11:42 AM

Post #24 of 45 (6356 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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Did I sound offended? I am sorry, I wasn't...really. My written English loses something when you can't use intonation. No offense at all, all good points.


don pedro


Dec 9, 2011, 12:52 PM

Post #25 of 45 (6340 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Chapala City Hall demonstration

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here's some friends of mine and i not dressed casually and looking nervous and scared on the chapala malecon.
it's also quite obvious that we ain't got no street smarts-SNORK!
http://chapalamexicoinfo.createforumhosting.com
naivete is a chronIc disease and by its very nature;the afflicted never know they have it.-SNORK!

(This post was edited by don pedro on Dec 9, 2011, 12:56 PM)
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