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La Isla


Nov 11, 2011, 1:01 PM

Post #1 of 26 (6773 views)

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Bad, bad news!

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The Secretary of Gobernación died today in a horrendous helicopter crash. Any bets on who's responsible?

http://www.nytimes.com/...&ref=global-home


(This post was edited by Rolly on Nov 11, 2011, 1:32 PM)



Yacatecuhtli


Nov 11, 2011, 1:41 PM

Post #2 of 26 (6740 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Bad, bad news!

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.........
"The last tweet on Blake's twitter account was on November 4, when he paid tribute to Mourino.
"Today we remember Juan Camilo Mourino three years after his passing, a human being who worked toward the creation of a better Mexico," Blake said."...........



! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !


La Isla


Nov 11, 2011, 1:45 PM

Post #3 of 26 (6732 views)

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Bad, bad news!

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.........
"The last tweet on Blake's twitter account was on November 4, when he paid tribute to Mourino.
"Today we remember Juan Camilo Mourino three years after his passing, a human being who worked toward the creation of a better Mexico," Blake said."...........


How tragically ironic a message.


RickS


Nov 11, 2011, 2:18 PM

Post #4 of 26 (6711 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Bad, bad news!

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" Any bets on who's responsible"

".....Investigators of that crash had found that the pilot of the minister’s small government jet had flown too close to a jumbo jet that it was following and lost control of the plane in the turbulence."

That explanation works for me.....


La Isla


Nov 11, 2011, 2:39 PM

Post #5 of 26 (6698 views)

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Re: [RickS] Bad, bad news!

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" Any bets on who's responsible"

".....Investigators of that crash had found that the pilot of the minister’s small government jet had flown too close to a jumbo jet that it was following and lost control of the plane in the turbulence."

That explanation works for me.....


My question referred to the current air tragedy. Your quote refers to the death of Mouriño in 2008.


richmx2


Nov 11, 2011, 3:05 PM

Post #6 of 26 (6682 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Bad, bad news!

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Any bets on who's responsible?

Aerospatiale? Whoever services the AS332 Super Pumas in the Mexican executive fleet?


http://mexfiles.net
http://mexicobookpublishers.com


chinagringo


Nov 11, 2011, 3:14 PM

Post #7 of 26 (6671 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Bad, bad news!

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According to INFORMADOR, this helicopter had been guarded in the Presidential hanger:

http://www.informador.com.mx/...te-dice-calderon.htm
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



careyeroslib

Nov 11, 2011, 6:32 PM

Post #8 of 26 (6610 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Bad, bad news!

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I'm unbelievably sad. All I can think to do is post the link I would have at my own funeral. Words by William Blake, the English poet. Jerusalem. Perhaps, someday, this land of promise and hope can be "builded" here, in Mexico.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r81ZPHfKXU


raferguson


Nov 11, 2011, 6:36 PM

Post #9 of 26 (6606 views)

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Re: [La Isla] Bad, bad news!

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The report that I read was that the weather was bad, with limited visibility. Supposedly the news media video showed the bad weather.

Helicopters are not very safe in the best conditions. Put one in bad weather in the mountains, and it gets scary. At the altitudes in and around Mexico City, the performance of the helicopters goes way down, reducing your safety margin and maneuverability. I understand also that helicopters are so inherently unstable that if the pilot flies into fog, he is likely to end up upside down. (This is all from a talk from a helicopter pilot, talking about flying in the Colorado mountains).

Another factor is that the passengers were important people, and perhaps inclined to push to get where they want to go, even if conditions are poor.

If it was a good weather accident I would be a little more inclined to conspiracy theories.

Richard


http://www.fergusonsculpture.com


Flaekingur


Nov 11, 2011, 8:59 PM

Post #10 of 26 (6561 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Bad, bad news!

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Hellicopters can be every bit as safe as fixed wing aircraft and modern helicopters have most of the same electronics, autopilots and navigation aids as other aircraft. Most heads of state and corporate leaders travel regularly in helicopters. Helicopters operate in all kinds of weather to oil fields in the north Atlantic, North Sea and The Gulf on a daily basis, day or night.
However, they are susceptible to the same problems that occasionaly bring down airliners and other aircraft. These are usualy mechanical failure or human error. I base this opinion on 45 years of flying, 10 of that with helicopters.
My condolances to the families of the victims and to the people of México.
Al


whynotwrite

Nov 12, 2011, 4:50 AM

Post #11 of 26 (6522 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Bad, bad news!

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 it was reported on the news last night that this helicopter was built in 1983. It seems a bit old for the job it was doing, in my opinoin.


Maesonna

Nov 12, 2011, 8:55 AM

Post #12 of 26 (6442 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Bad, bad news!

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A TV news report last night mentioned that 25 government officials have died in aviation accidents since 1995 (referring to Mexico, of course). I would be ready to believe that all or most of these were accidents. Consider this; their exposure to aviation risk is much higher than most of us, who usually fly in large commercial aircraft, if at all—the government officials get ferried around a lot in small aircraft and helicopters. I can imagine that in these craft they would be more at the mercy of weather, less trained or less rested pilots, and sub-optimum maintenance. Yes, these factors do occasionally cause spectacular and tragic accidents in large commercial aircraft, but of the thousands and thousands of flights taking place daily around the world, only a very tiny percentage. And there are a lot of controls in place to reduce the risk even further.


AlanMexicali


Nov 12, 2011, 9:19 AM

Post #13 of 26 (6430 views)

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Re: [Maesonna] Bad, bad news!

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Recently on the Mexican TV news a helicopter crashed in Mexico City that was transporting important people to a nearby location. It showed the downed helicopter in the street with police and fire all around.


"From the Wires Friday, Oct 21, 2011 10:42 AM Pacific Standard Time 2 Killed In Mexico City Helicopter Crash


Topics:From the Wires
MEXICO CITY (AP) — Mexico City authorities say a helicopter carrying an official from neighboring Mexico State has crashed in a residential area, killing the two pilots.
The helicopter carrying Mexico state Metropolitan Secretary Fernando Garcia and his assistant crashed Friday in an empty lot of the city’s Coyoacan borough.
Borough chief Raul Flores told Foro Television that the two who were injured were taken to a hospital. Flores said the pilot and co-pilot died in the crash.
The loud crash scared residents of downtown Coyoacan, a district of many narrow cobblestone streets, some lined with mansions and ancient trees.
No other damage or injuries were reported."


(This post was edited by AlanMexicali on Nov 12, 2011, 9:35 AM)


Flaekingur


Nov 12, 2011, 11:49 AM

Post #14 of 26 (6384 views)

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Re: [Maesonna] Bad, bad news!

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Age has nothing to do with airworthiness of aircraft or helicopters. The president of the United States flies around in a Sikorski Sea King helicopter. They were last built in the 1960's.
Next time you get on a Boeing 737, keep in mind that the one you are flying in may be relatively new but the the first 737s, some of which are still flying, were built in the 1960's also. Many of the military aircraft operated by the U.S. and other Air Forces are 20 or more years old. The USAF is still operating B-52s that were built in the 1950's. With proper maintenance and upgrading, an aircraft can fly indefinately.
I think this accident will eventualy be determined to be the result of a small human error, probably by the pilots.


esperanza

Nov 12, 2011, 3:00 PM

Post #15 of 26 (6330 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Bad, bad news!

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In Reply To
The report that I read was that the weather was bad, with limited visibility. Supposedly the news media video showed the bad weather.

Helicopters are not very safe in the best conditions. Put one in bad weather in the mountains, and it gets scary. At the altitudes in and around Mexico City, the performance of the helicopters goes way down, reducing your safety margin and maneuverability. I understand also that helicopters are so inherently unstable that if the pilot flies into fog, he is likely to end up upside down. (This is all from a talk from a helicopter pilot, talking about flying in the Colorado mountains).

Another factor is that the passengers were important people, and perhaps inclined to push to get where they want to go, even if conditions are poor.

If it was a good weather accident I would be a little more inclined to conspiracy theories.

Richard

The locals who heard the crash, people who were interviewed on last night's news, said that the sky was clear at the time they heard the impact.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com









robt65

Nov 13, 2011, 6:18 AM

Post #16 of 26 (6228 views)

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Re: [Flaekingur] Bad, bad news!

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From my time in Viet Nam, You might want to explain some of the things that can happen in a heartbeat not only with rotor wing aircraft but also fixed wing aircraft. These are things that trained pilots of either winged aircraft can and are trained to anticipate. I wish I had the credentials to explain these things but I do not. I have only very limited knowledge about it. things like the number of hours a helicopter pilot is allowed to fly (2 to 4 hours per mission) due to the extreme vibration of the chopper caused by the engine vibration, this is known as WBV. The number of pilots that have received back injuries from excessive mission duration, for example seat configuration nd / or construction, padding, etc., has not kept up with the advance of the helicopter itself and results injuries to the crews spines can be pretty rough. All of these things sometimes do affect a pilots physical ability. (Have you ever had a serious "catch" or "kink" of a nerve in your back?) This has nothing to do with the safety of the craft or the ability of the pilots. It is just a fact of piloting a rotor winged craft. I know the military has been aggressively researching these spinal problems of rotor winged pilots. http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA446461

717 Hours of flight time this helicopter had on it is a relatively low amount of flight hours for a craft of this age. That would put an average of 2.06 hours of operation per month. This is very few hours of operation. It seems a time frame of maintenance by both the aircraft and the engine manufacturer would come into play first. I dare say any aircraft gets a far greater amount of maintenance that one would even begin to suspect. If we took even the slightest amount of just peruse visuals any aircraft goes through with our cars, our cars would last a lifetime! When there are inherent problems with any aircraft, one can easily find such references today via the computer. Try it for this aircraft and I think you will see it is difficult to find any frequency of mechanical problems. All in all tis appears to be a very airworthy craft.

I think once the flight recorders are found from this flight, a pilot error would be the most likely culprit. Sometimes these politicians can set some pretty drastic schedules of appearances and this aircraft probably doesn’t have that many pilots waiting around capable of flying it. I would think maybe rest periods between flights would be a possibility or lack thereof.


Yacatecuhtli


Nov 13, 2011, 7:28 AM

Post #17 of 26 (6206 views)

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Re: [robt65] Bad, bad news!

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I think once the flight recorders are found from this flight, a pilot error would be the most likely culprit.


The aircraft did not have any black box or flight recorder installed therefore none will be found........


! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !


chinagringo


Nov 13, 2011, 10:31 AM

Post #18 of 26 (6149 views)

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Bad, bad news!

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There are now reports that this same copter experienced mechanical problems returning from Colima on Wednesday and the craft had been worked on Thursday.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion/190776.html
http://www.informador.com.mx/...-en-otra-ocasion.htm
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



robt65

Nov 13, 2011, 5:15 PM

Post #19 of 26 (6082 views)

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Re: [Yacatecuhtli] Bad, bad news!

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Do you have a site reference for this information of no black box? That would be highly irregular, even in Mexico. The French are known for being adamant about installing such a device to prevent lawsuits against their aircraft if a malfunction occurs.

The company that manufactures this particular helicopter (Eurocopter AS332 Super Puma - Originally designed and built by Aerospatiale) manufactures many, many different military fixed wing and rotor wing aircraft that are pretty darned good quality. http://en.wikipedia.org/...ter_AS332_Super_Puma

robt65


richmx2


Nov 13, 2011, 5:56 PM

Post #20 of 26 (6070 views)

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Re: [robt65] Bad, bad news!

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No black box, that was what all the Mexican newspapers reported.


http://mexfiles.net
http://mexicobookpublishers.com


robt65

Nov 13, 2011, 6:12 PM

Post #21 of 26 (6063 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Bad, bad news!

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Very difficult to believe those reports, as the craft is built with a pair on board. Unless the Mexican Government intentionally took them (there are two) out. If that were the case, and I was a Mexican national, I would sure want some answers from the government!

robt65


robt65

Nov 13, 2011, 6:30 PM

Post #22 of 26 (6054 views)

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Re: [whynotwrite] Bad, bad news!

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This is one heck of a chopper! This is one of the few medium duty choppers that can even make a full loop, make a hard landing and go for more. The military version were even plated around the cockpit areas to sustain damage from ground fire, even the rotor blades were evidently coated with a substance to deflect small arms fire. Apparently the Mexican Army Air Force made a good buy with these birds. http://wn.com/eurocopter_cougar?upload_time=all_time&orderby=viewCount
Maesonna, I was also very surprised to learn of the requirements for the Mexican Army Air force Schools. It is a tough course for sure. I believe I would easily trust one of these pilots! Now I could certainly buy into less rested pilots, and sub-optimum maintenance.

robt65


(This post was edited by robt65 on Nov 13, 2011, 6:33 PM)


robt65

Nov 13, 2011, 7:35 PM

Post #23 of 26 (6036 views)

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Re: [raferguson] Bad, bad news!

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These particular models of the Eurocopter AS332 Super Puma – (Originally designed and built by Aerospatiale) were built to withstand higher altitudes than most choppers.
“. . . . . . . . While the new design was of similar layout to the AS 330, it was powered by two of the new and more powerful Turbomeca Makila turboshaft engines powering a four-bladed composite main rotor, and was designed to be withstand damage better, with a more robust fuselage structure, a new crashworthy undercarriage and the ability to withstand battle damage to the rotor blades and other key mechanical systems. It was fitted with a ventral fin under the tail a more streamlined nose compared with the SA 330, while from the start was planned to be available with two fuselage lengths, with a short fuselage version offering similar capacity to the SA 330, which gives better performance in "hot and high" conditions and a stretched version allowing more passengers to be carried when weight is less critical.
A pre-production prototype, the SA 331, modified from a SA 330 airframe with Makila engines and a new gearbox, flew on 5 September 1977. The first prototype of the full Super Puma made its maiden flight on 13 September 1978, being followed by a further five prototypes.

The type has proved immensely successful, chosen by 37 military forces around the world, and some 1,000 civil operators. The Super Puma has proved especially well-suited to the North Sea oil industry, where it is used to ferry personnel and equipment to and from oil platforms. In civilian configuration it can seat approximately 18 passengers and two crew, though since the early 2000s most oil companies have banned use of the middle-rear seat reducing effective capacity to 17+2. This down-rating is due to difficulties encountered in evacuating through the rear-most windows in crashes at sea.

The service ceiling for this aircraft is between 16,995 and 20,000 foot above sea level. There have been seven documented accidents or incidences with this aircraft. About half seem to have some relation to main rotor gear failure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_AS332_Super_Puma


Yacatecuhtli


Nov 13, 2011, 8:22 PM

Post #24 of 26 (6023 views)

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Re: [robt65] Bad, bad news!

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Yes the SCT reported there was no black boxes (see first link below) This was widely reported in the Mexican press.
1) Helicóptero donde viajaba Blake Mora no tenía caja negra

2) HELICÓPTERO DE BLAKE MORA NO TENIA CAJA NEGRA

3)Sin "caja negra" la aeronave de Blake Mora - Diario de Yucatán


4)
Helicóptero en el que viajaba Blake Mora no tenía caja negra: Dionisio Pérez Jácome

and From The Star...
"An engineer at the Mexican School of Aviation, Rogelio Dorantes said that although it’s very rare helicopters of this caliber crash — even in cloud cover — it does happen. Referencing suspicions that no black box had been mentioned, he added that “by law, (Mexican Air Force) are not required by law to have one, even though they should.”

There are lots of other articles that mention no black boxes as well, Mr Google can help you find them if you are interested.


! Al pan, pan y al vino, vino !


chinagringo


Nov 14, 2011, 8:29 AM

Post #25 of 26 (5953 views)

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Re: [robt65] Bad, bad news!

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According to the EL UNIVERSAL article which follows, there have been numerous maintenance issues with Mexico's helicopter fleet related to the age of the aircraft, availability of replacement parts and budget constraints.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion/190814.html
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM

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