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robt65

May 12, 2011, 7:06 PM

Post #1 of 21 (6446 views)

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Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Today while driving in San Juan del Rio, I saw a wind power electrical generator. It had three, approximately three foot blades. Does anyone know if this method of generating electricity for home use, has become feasible at this time? We do get fairly constant winds daily here of 5 to 10 MPH.

robt65



chinagringo


May 13, 2011, 6:33 AM

Post #2 of 21 (6424 views)

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Re: [robt65] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Great if you want to drown out the noise from your neighbors and if you have a pigeon/bird problem! Can't say that I know much about the feasibility for a homeowner but I would guess that it would take a larger unit to generate enough power?
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



YucaLandia


May 14, 2011, 9:04 AM

Post #3 of 21 (6385 views)

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Re: [robt65] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Wind power advocates say that a good wind generator putting out 1KW per hour (5 ft blades) at 15 knots of wind costs about $4500 delivered and installed and has a working life of 20 years. There are 3kW (6 ft blades) and 5kW versions, but they require modest towers (30 ft?).

Comparing Wind vs Solar PV: If you have wind round-the-clock, a wind generator can generate a lot more power than solar, without PV solar's maintenance. The kW output ratings for PV solar also depend on temperature, with both current and voltage outputs falling as temperature go above 25 C.

One general rule of thumb: solar cell efficiency decreases by 0.5% for every 1 C (1.8 F) above 25 C (77 F). This means that on hot days, the efficiency of a solar cell typically drop by 25%. Remember: a black panel sitting in the sun gets much hotter than the reported air temperatures, where un-cooled solar panel commonly hit 60C - 80C temperatures on hot days.

If you have 10-15 knot winds, 12 hr per day, plus 5-10 knot winds at other times, a 1kW wind generator making 12-14 kW-hr of power per day (at either 120V or 240V), makes nominally 400-500 kW-hr per month - which exceeds all of our power bills for the last 5 years here. This is worth noting, because CFE can install home meters that "run backwards", allowing wind power generators to easily offset all the power they use even when the wind isn't blowing, and offsetting power they use at times of day when the home consumes more power than the wind generator supplies.

This gives a home power system that does NOT require banks of expensive environmentally-unfriendly deep-cycle batteries, where with fluctuating wind power but no batteries, the homeowner's CFE meter temporarily records the power drawn when there is heavy use (air conditioning) or when there is no wind; and then later when the wind's-a-blowin', the meter feeds the wind turbine's excess power back into the CFE grid, wiping out the home's earlier recorded CFE power usages => an offset pricing system where the homeowner's CFE bills can easily go to $0 pesos - but never earning credits.

Robt65,
Do you have a sense of how much wind has been regularly measured in your area? Are there risks of high wind damaging either elevated/exposed solar panel or incorrectly designed wind turbine towers? This can be a concern in some parts of Mexico. Like...... Yucatan?



Tracings of hurricane paths for the last 100 years.

steve
-

-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on May 14, 2011, 9:13 AM)


chicois8

May 14, 2011, 11:13 AM

Post #4 of 21 (6364 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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I am in the process of building a hybrid system at this time, panels + wind generator...The newer wind generators do not have the noise problems and in times past, and don't we have enough pigeons all ready.....suerte y paz


chinagringo


May 14, 2011, 11:26 AM

Post #5 of 21 (6358 views)

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Re: [chicois8] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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I think that you will find that your blades will reduce the pigeon problem and not increase it!
Regards,
Neil
Albuquerque, NM



chicois8

May 14, 2011, 11:50 AM

Post #6 of 21 (6356 views)

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Re: [chinagringo] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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That was my point, if my blades kill a few pigeons who cares there are plenty more to go around, although there are no pigeons where I live,maybe the falcons take care of them.........



In Reply To
I think that you will find that your blades will reduce the pigeon problem and not increase it!



robt65

May 14, 2011, 1:46 PM

Post #7 of 21 (6335 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Hi Steve,

You said: . . . "Do you have a sense of how much wind has been regularly measured in your area? Are there risks of high wind damaging either elevated/exposed solar panel or incorrectly designed wind turbine towers? This can be a concern in some parts of Mexico. Like...... Yucatan?"

I have just been exploring different ways of different possibilities to save a few dollars. A long time ago I lived in Washington State. I had a lovely river running by my property and a small set of waterfalls. I was able to hookup a great little generating system that really provided a pretty fair amount of electric for my use. It really did help out the electric but then again I had a pretty sweet location for that resource. So now I started to explore other renewable sources that may or may not have panned out. At this time I do not believe the cost factor would justify the use of either full wind or solar power for our home.

Yes I have found an internet site that provides various Mexican wind velocity charts and it appears to be fairly close to the wind as I recall that we have had here over the past year or so. There are some still days and occasionally (very occasionally) we do get some guts that would be in the 30 to 40 MPH winds but maybe once or twice a year. Usually most day have a period of time (approx) 8 hours or so of gentle winds (being we are located on the down slope of some mountains) of maybe 5 to 15 MPH. So it is located in a "good" productive area (according to the tables I have read) for the use of the wind generation scheme, but I still cannot justify the cost of a good system.

I feel the same about solar use. To have a good system for at least half of an electric bill, I believe I am looking at $30,000 to $40,000 at this time. I find that would take too many years to repay back the initial costs involved. there are other ways of cutting our costs of electric, especially with the advent of the now pretty good residential LED lighting systems on the market coupled with the individual solar garden lights and exterior security lighting available today. The remaining electric costs we will just have to figure out if we are prepared to spend that money for what we want in the way of electrical use our home, not unlike all families do.

robt65


DavidHF

May 14, 2011, 2:02 PM

Post #8 of 21 (6332 views)

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Re: [robt65] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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With kW hrs costing about 31 US cents per (DAC rate) the payback on solar electric in Mexico is not long at all. Depending on system size it ranges from 5 to 8 years. We had a system installed that has reduced our CFE bill from $2800 pesos on average to less than $500 pesos. The system cost $9500 USD , it's rated at 1.54 kW and produces on average 7.9 kWhrs per day.

Your guess of $30-40,000USA is too high.


(This post was edited by DavidHF on May 14, 2011, 2:04 PM)


chicois8

May 14, 2011, 2:15 PM

Post #9 of 21 (6330 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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The 30/40,000 is out of line unless he got those prices at a high end solar store in Mexico selling to gringos...I meet this lady from SMA that paid
$1600.00 USD each for a deep cycle battery, she bought 4 batteries..............


robt65

May 14, 2011, 3:10 PM

Post #10 of 21 (6322 views)

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Re: [chicois8] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Hi Chicois8,

I am talking about an integrated system with deep cell battery backups. It adds up quick, with inverters and converters and automatic switchovers , etc., etc.,!!!!!!

robt65


chicois8

May 14, 2011, 3:24 PM

Post #11 of 21 (6319 views)

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Re: [robt65] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Sorry ours is a off grid hybrid system:

4 - 175w 35volt panels=$500 each=$2000.00
8 - 280 amp hr deep cycle batteries= $720.00
1 - 400 w wind generator $400.00
1 - 5000 w aims inverter $400.00
1 - Xantex c-40 controller $125.00
1 - TriMetric battery systems monitor $180.00
Miss. fuses and switches $100.00
wire and battery cables/connections $200.00
___________
$4025 USD

This system has been working for 3 years............


robt65

May 14, 2011, 4:45 PM

Post #12 of 21 (6308 views)

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Re: [chicois8] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Sorry ours is a off grid hybrid system:

My point exactly chicois8, I am researching a whole house or at the very least enough constant electricity to operate everything in the house except the 2 AC's, the large microwave, the commercial grade Kitchen Aid convection oven, the clothes dryer and the swimming pool pump and filtration system.

The electricity needed to operate a 28 foot double door fridge, four ceiling fans, a 12 room house with electric lights , and three flat screen televisions and a water pressure pump for both the household water and another for the garden fountain, is the amount of electricity I am looking for a solar system to operate. That's a lot of electricity. I seriously doubt the system you have quoted that you have, would be capable of operating even a portion of that amount of amps required. That is the difference.

There is also a great amount of difference in the type of solar panels that you have and what I am looking for. Check here for s short tutorial of the differences. http://www.power-talk.net/solar-power.html Also the type and capacity of the batteries that you are using are, I am sure, not the same strength as what I would need for the battery bank for such a system that I am looking for. Check here for another short tutorial on batteries for solar systems. http://www.power-talk.net/golf-cart-batteries.html

chicoes8, I am not saying your system is wrong and mine is correct. You have what suits you and I am looking at what would suit my needs. I think they are different. One is not better than another, only different. IMHO

robt65


chicois8

May 14, 2011, 5:58 PM

Post #13 of 21 (6298 views)

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Re: [robt65] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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What do you have 9 kids?LOL .....My Refrigerator is 10 c ft , a chest freezer,

5 rooms with ceiling fans and lights, regular old TV/ with DVD Player and a

waterpump. a seperate solar fountain pump...

Some come to Mexico for a simpler way of life, some live in 12 room

houses....suerte y paz


DavidHF

May 14, 2011, 8:10 PM

Post #14 of 21 (6280 views)

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Re: [robt65] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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The problem with off-grid systems is that you have to invest so much in batteries which must be replaced from time to time. If you size it to meet your peak needs it means you've spent too much for your average needs. An on-grid system is much more econoomical. BTW, unless you can state your requirement in kWhrs per day or month the discussion is moot. Just listing your appliances will not lead to an accurate assesment of your needs. Analysis of our electricity consumption enabled us to get a system that supplies 96% of our power. FYI, we have a large pool, freezer, fridge, microwave, electric oven, two satelliet systems and two big screen tv sets, 2 computers, and countless small things that use electricity.


robt65

May 14, 2011, 8:10 PM

Post #15 of 21 (6280 views)

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Re: [chicois8] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Not near as big as it sounds . . . . . No 9 kids . . . . . . . I have a MIL and FIL one bedroom - a private bath for them, two rooms for the two children, a bath for them, my wife and I would like a bedroom and a bathroom, Let's see that's 7 rooms . . . the new addition when completed will have a master bedroom and a master bath, a new large laundry / bulk food storage room . . . . . . . let's see that's ten rooms a hall way and a small office . . . . that makes 12 spaces or rooms.

tambin,

robt65


robt65

May 14, 2011, 8:23 PM

Post #16 of 21 (6276 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Hi DavidHF,

You said: "BTW, unless you can state your requirement in kWhrs per day or month the discussion is moot. Just listing your appliances will not lead to an accurate assessment of your needs. Analysis of our electricity consumption enabled us to get a system that supplies 96% of our power."

Even though I am looking at an on grid and not an off grid system, I would still like battery backup. From what I have read so far it is also pretty important to know the number of amps that each piece of electric machine, appliance, TV etc., are consuming, is that not correct?

Your system does sound interesting. What exactly are you using to get a 96% supply of power from the sun? Do you mind if I ask what the cost of such a system would run today? 96% is something I could sure live with. Are you running 110 or 220 to your home?

robt65


johanson


May 14, 2011, 11:32 PM

Post #17 of 21 (6270 views)

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Re: [robt65] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Hey Robt65. I have a 3 phase system (I draw power from all three phases) yet I generate power on/for only one of those three phases, which is great as long as I am (you are) connected to the CFE power grid. So whether I generate 70 or 95% of the total power I consume, even though, I'm doing so on one phase, I'm OK as long as CPE is working and I am cnnected to all three phases.

But should CFE, the power utility be down, I'm hurting because I only produce power for one phase, which means without CFE I only have 127 volts not 220 (should I need two phases to power an elevator or a large pump)


robt65

May 15, 2011, 3:28 AM

Post #18 of 21 (6265 views)

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Re: [johanson] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Hi Johanson,

That woud be the three large lugs at the head of your 200 Amp panel box, correct? I would probably go the same route. I would like to go to either a battery backup or have the ability to use a 5500 watt generator I have if necessary for the crutial necessities such as the fridge / freezer. I have a single story home so I do not have an elevator to worry about and I think a pool pump could be down for a couple of days if it came to that, but I do have a pressure pump I will be installing on the water system. About three times a year here (especially when the very large Fiesta Americana Hotel complex accros the street has a super large conference going on the electricity goes out for several hours and one time a year for more than a 24 hour period.

robt65


YucaLandia


May 15, 2011, 3:14 PM

Post #19 of 21 (6238 views)

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Re: [DavidHF] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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With kW hrs costing about 31 US cents per (DAC rate) the payback on solar electric in Mexico is not long at all. Depending on system size it ranges from 5 to 8 years. We had a system installed that has reduced our CFE bill from $2800 pesos on average to less than $500 pesos. The system cost $9500 USD , it's rated at 1.54 kW and produces on average 7.9 kWhrs per day.

Your guess of $30-40,000USA is too high.

Hey David,
Good point about the payback period changing if you use more than CFE's approved monthly threshold of power. In our short 5 years here, we've stayed under 300kW-hr per month, never coming within even of CFE's 850 kW-hr per month DAC limit. When you must pay the 5X higher DAC rates, then the payback/recovery time on a system falls quickly from the 11-14 yr. time frame that modest power users face.

Saying this another way, interested readers could make a quick estimate of how much time it would take to recover the costs of a PV solar system. Check your CFE power bill: if you are in the heavy-user DAC rate category, then the payback is likely some less than 10 years. If you are in the Basico and Intermedio rate categories, then figure more than 10 years.

If you are a really heavy power user, and you have lots and lots of sunny days, then David's payback number of 5 years for a 1.5 kW PV system works!
-
Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


KathyRRozier

Oct 19, 2011, 4:54 AM

Post #20 of 21 (5143 views)

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Re: [robt65] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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Small Wind & You
How do residential wind turbines work?
A wind turbine, installed on top of a tall tower, collects kinetic energy from the wind and converts it into electricity that is compatible with the home's electrical system. In a residential application with net metering, a home is served simultaneously by the wind turbine and a local utility. If wind speeds are below the speed limit (usually a minimum of 2 or 3 meters per second is required) will not be output from the turbine and all of the energy purchased from the utility. As wind speeds increase, increases the production of the turbine and the amount of energy purchased from the utility is proportionately smaller. When the turbine produces more power than the housing needs, the extra electricity can be sold to the utility if these agreements are available. All this is done automatically.

I have no need to take wind measurements for a year or more?
For most residential systems the cost of taking wind measurements is not justified. Wind data resources provided by Environment Canada is often enough for an experienced evaluator to predict wind turbine performance. For large turbines and large investments, it may be desirable to collect more detailed data on the location. The Ballpark Cost page in helping with the planning section on this site uses the Environment Canada wind map data for calculating the viability of the wind in your area.

What about the towers?
A rule of thumb for proper and efficient operation of a wind turbine is that the tower height (turbine hub height) should be at least 10 feet above all within 100 meters of the tower. Usually, 25 to 37 underground towers can be supplied along with the wind turbine, which usually avoids turbulence from buildings and trees in most places. Wind speed increases as you ascend above the ground, and also becomes less turbulent. In addition, the generation of electricity from a turbine increases exponentially with wind speed. Therefore, a relatively small height of the tower will cause rise very high rates of return in electricity generation. For example, installing a 10 kW generator on a tower 30 feet instead of a tower of 18 meters is a 10% increase in total system cost, but can result in ~ 30% power. There are different types of towers are available, depending on the manufacturer you select. Each type has its advantages, the most economical tower is the tower of the 'red braces', but a hinged tower can be easier for you to install and provides easier access for maintenance.

How reliable are wind turbines? Lot of maintenance?
Most small turbines have very few moving parts and requires no regular maintenance. They are designed for long life (up to 20 years) and operate completely automatically.

How am I going to have a wind turbine installed in my home?
Most dealers offer either turnkey (ready to operate) installations or the option of buying directly from the factory and install the system yourself. The first option offers more customer support the company. Self-installation offers significant savings and a practical understanding of the turbine. Prospective owners can discuss the options available with manufacturers to decide which method best suits their budget skills and expertise.

Approach buying the equipment as you would any other major purchase. You can start this process in our planning help page. You will have to weigh the costs and varying degrees of rugged / durable designs. Obtain and review the product literature from several manufacturers, and research to those who want to follow to ensure they are well-known, parts and service will be available when needed. Find out how long is the warranty and what it includes, and ask for references of customers with installations similar to the one you are considering. Ask the owners of systems performance, reliability, maintenance and repair requirements, and if the system is meeting their expectations.

(This post was edited by KathyRRozier on Oct 19, 2011, 5:01 AM)


Maesonna

Oct 24, 2011, 12:29 PM

Post #21 of 21 (5068 views)

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Re: [KathyRRozier] Wind Power for Home Use Feasible?

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I wonder if this information (quoted in Kathy's post) assumes a traditional horizontal axis turbine with long blades? Vertical axis wind turbines are supposed to work better in turbulent and low winds (so they don't require such a high placement), and some of them are said to be much quieter than the traditional designs, too.
 
 
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