Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

I could have missed the few on naturalization but I don't remember seeing one well described process.

Things like length of time on inmigrado (if a time requirement), trip to DF required, police report, cost, etc. The test seems to be the last thing you do and is small in relation to the rest.

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

Oct 6, 2011, 6:34 PM

Post #2 of 23 (2832 views)

Re: [sparks] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

sparks,

The current regulation is that you only need 5 years (unless some other things apply which allow this to be as little as 2 years) in the status inmigrante to apply for naturaliztion as a Mexican citizen. To explain this a bit further, once you have successfully been in the status inmigrante for 5 years, you have to make a choice. You can either: apply for the status inmigrado, you can apply for a new no inmigrante status (equivalent to today's FM3) or you can apply for naturalizción as a Mexican citizen. Actually, for inmigrado status or naturalización, that 5 years is only 4 1/2, since that is when you must start your applications for those two options.

To apply for naturalization does NOT require a trip to DF, just print out the online forms, fill them out properly, pay the fee at a local bank (with the correct form!), go to your STATE CAPITOL SRE office and make the application. If you make some of the obvious mistakes on the forms (like I did), you may have to go home and redo those forms before they will accept the application. There is no police report required, although I do believe that somewhere on the SRE website it says there is, something that worried me at the time I did it, as every municipio in México has innumerable police organizations from the most local, the transitos, up to the state level and then the Federal level. Not knowing just who to go to for the "police report", I didn't, and the SRE office in Culiacán told me, essentially, "ni modo."

After having all the correctly filled out forms and the bank receipt (back in 2006 it was a little over $2,000 MXN if I remember correctly, so not a terribly major expense) accepted by the SRE office in Culiacán, it was just about 18 months before I heard anything, and that was when I was notified that I had to come to their office in Culiacán within the next 30 days to take the test (or start all over again!).

Went to Culiacán, took the test, which was 5 questions (you must get 4 correct) gleaned at random from a list of 100 possible questions that is available for study purposes on the SRE website. This list of 100 changes every few months, so be certain to check the expiration date of the list. The list my questions came from was evaluated as the most difficult that had ever been published up to that time, as it didn't seem to include ANY of the questions used on previous lists.

Once I had passed the test (got all 5 correct :-D ), it was another 3 months before I received a telephone call from Culiacán telling me to come into the office to receive my naturalization papers. After signing the typical Mexican bureaucracy pile of various papers, I was given my carta de naturalización and told that I really must quickly go to my local IFE office and get my credencial para votar and to the local (Mazatlán) SRE office and get my Mexican pasaporte. I did both promptly, and have even voted in Estado de Sinaloa and Municipio de Mazatlán elections already.

Three things you MUST have (do) and one thing you must NEVER do:

Have a passport from your home country with at least 6 months remaining validity.
Have an inmigrante visa with at least 6 months remaining validity—I understand this is a requirement when you go to apply for inmigrado status also, but that may have changed.
Make certain you are prepared to transact ALL steps, verbal or written, in Spanish. This does NOT mean being completely fluent in Spanish or else I would never have made the cut. It does mean being able to understand most clearly spoken (and written for the forms) Spanish and be able to respond in reasonably accurate Spanish (something which only requires a very nominal level of fluency).

The thing that you must NEVER DO is to take your friendly Spanish-speaker (wife, husband, relative, friend, lawyer or notario) with you to help with the process. The only ones I have ever known to be refused naturalization (besides those who failed the test after trying to pass it several times in the 30 day period*) were ones who did this.

* It appears you can take the test at least 3 times during the 30 day period, although the 5 questions will be different each time. There were several on that forum I spoke of in the other thread who had done so, both successfully and unsuccessfully.

There might be details I have missed or minor things that have changed, and of course, this being México, all state level SRE offices may not implement the regulations exactly the same, but my experience was pretty nearly the norm for all of the many, many persons who were posting on that forum back in 2006-7. I doubt that much has changed, though, as there has not been the massive overhaul of the naturalization laws since 2007 like there has been of the immigration laws and regulations—with more to come.

Incidentally, just as it seems to be with INM in getting working visa status, the DF office of the SRE seems to be the toughest one to deal with.

mazatman

Oct 6, 2011, 8:19 PM

Post #3 of 23 (2811 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Finally, some first hand experience and advice about this process.

Rod

Maesonna

Oct 8, 2011, 1:41 PM

Post #4 of 23 (2670 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

I'm not sure about the no police report thing: I've been checking different forums and blogs, and recent information suggests that it may have changed since you went through the process and they do require it now.

Thank you for a very informative and detailed account.

(This post was edited by Maesonna on Oct 8, 2011, 1:43 PM)

Oct 8, 2011, 3:56 PM

Post #5 of 23 (2642 views)

Re: [Maesonna] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

Maesonna, The only way to know for certain whether the "police report" will be necessary is to get the word from the horse's mouth…the head of the state office of the SRE in whatever state you live in. IF your state office says it is, you would have to then ask just EXACTLY which of the innumerable police departments in YOUR municipio you need to get it from, as for sure there are at the very least 6 or more that have an office in the main city (where the Palacio is) of whichever municipio you live in. This is something totally different from the "police report" that some Mexican Consulates in the U.S. used to require when applying for an FM3, as in applying for citizenship you are also certifying that you have lived nearly full time for 5 years in México, so it would be a Mexican police report, nowhere near as clear a situation. I was plenty relieved when my state office of the SRE told me, essentially, "ni modo" or "no importa".

That's one of the reasons that I wrote the little "disclaimer" at the end of my detailed account. Also, I have read numerous things on various blogs and forums about Mexican naturalization that are just flatly UNTRUE. They were ALL written by folks who had not completely gone through the process or were parroting some second-(or third-, or fourth-)hand thing they had heard or read.

To this day I STILL read about and hear folks saying that a foreigner MUST have a Mexican partner to go into business in México, when that hasn't been true for many, many years. Unless they ask me via a PM, I have long ago given up trying to educate them and the forum-reading public.

(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Oct 8, 2011, 4:00 PM)

Oct 11, 2011, 10:46 AM

Post #6 of 23 (2473 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

One thing I remember reading was that the citizenship laws state that you cannot be denied citizenship, or 'fail' the test because of weak Spanish language. The reason for this is to recognize many indigenous peoples of Mexico, for whom Spanish is not their main language. Can you imagine being denied citizenship in a country where your people have lived for centuries! So you just have to recognize enough of the 100 written questions I guess.

Rolly

Oct 11, 2011, 10:55 AM

Post #7 of 23 (2463 views)

Re: [Sculptari] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

That doesn't make sense. Why would an indigenous person be applying for citizenship?
Being born in México makes one a citizen no matter what language one may or may not speak.

Rolly Pirate

Oct 11, 2011, 12:20 PM

Post #8 of 23 (2436 views)

Re: [Rolly] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

You know the problem of birth certificates. Many of the poorest cannot afford them (80-100 dollars?), so the kids can be turned down for school. It is apparently very difficult to obtain a birth certificate many years after the fact, this is because the birth certificate is the primary identification in Mexico, it trumps the passport. I have seen a recent one - they seemed to be about 8 pages long, include baby footprints and fingerprints. I suspect it easier to prove residency (or an amnesty?) and then get a passport than all the notarized statements needed for birth certificates.

I know a large percentage of the farmworkers at this time in the United States, are from Oaxaca, and many of them do not read, write or speak Spanish. If a worker had the chance to go legit in the U.S.A. - they would want a Mexican passport pronto, this is the primary document the U.S. requires, plus maybe driving license.

Oct 11, 2011, 12:37 PM

Post #9 of 23 (2424 views)

Re: [Sculptari] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

This might be a good place to note the difference between nationality and citizenship in Mexico. This is just clip from wiki.

"

As in most other Central and South American countries, Mexican law differentiates between nationality and citizenship. Nationality is the attribute of the person in international law that describes his/her relationship to the State, whereas citizenship is given to those nationals (i.e. those that hold the Mexican nationality) that have certain rights and responsibilities before the State. The 34th article of the Mexican constitution establishes that Mexican citizens are those Mexican [nationals] that are 18 years of age or older, and that have an "honest way of living". Mexican citizens have the rights to:[4]

vote in all elections;
be elected in all elections;
gather or associate freely in in order to participate in the political affairs of the nation;
enlist in the Mexican Army or the Mexican National Guard to defend the Republic and its institutions, and
exercise the right of petition.

Mexican law also distinguishes between naturalized citizens and natural-born citizens in many ways. Under the Mexican constitution, naturalized citizens are prohibited from serving in a wide array of positions, mostly governmental. Naturalized Mexicans cannot occupy any of the following positions:

The Mexican military during peacetime[5]
Policeman[5]
Captain, pilot, or crew member on any Mexican-flagged vessel or aircraft[5]
President of Mexico[6]
Member of the Congress of Mexico[7]
Member of the Supreme Court of Mexico[8]
Governor of a Mexican state[9]
Mayor or member of the legislature of Mexico City[9]"

Oct 11, 2011, 12:54 PM

Post #10 of 23 (2418 views)

Re: [Sculptari] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

I beg to differ, Sculptari. The acceptable/legal "original" birth certificate in México is available any time from the Registro Civil in the municipio where the person/child was born. It's one page (sometimes of legal length) and the cost is nominal, just a few pesos. Of course this assumes the mother did register the birth, yes, those born at home too, which is easy even some time after the event (I've seen ones that were registered as much as a couple of years after the birth). The registration may have a small fee involved, but if there is a fee, it too should be nominal.

I have had to get "original" birth certificates for everyone in my Mexican family, born in various municipios (delegaciónes in DF) all over México (which was a big pain, but except for all the travel expense, the actual costs at the various Registros Civiles was very low),

The multi-page birth certificate that you saw is one probably issued by a hospital and is NOT what is considered a legal acta de nacimiento in México, the one that is required nearly everywhere until the person reaches 18 and gets the IFE credential para votar.

(This post was edited by mazbook1 on Oct 11, 2011, 12:57 PM)

Rolly

Oct 11, 2011, 1:25 PM

Post #11 of 23 (2404 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

I also though the idea of a 100 DOLLAR certificate a bit out of line, so at lunch today, I asked my friend, father of 4, about the cost here in Lerdo -- $120 pesos. If a family is truly indigent, DIF will provide one free, so a child will not be denined an education.

Rolly Pirate

(This post was edited by Rolly on Oct 11, 2011, 1:26 PM)

viktoremski

Oct 11, 2011, 1:32 PM

Post #12 of 23 (2398 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

Thanks for the detailed explanation. There are two things I am not clear about:
First, with the new law about to be implemented, regarding temporary residency (no more FM2 and FM3 differentiation), will the five years with former FM3 be recognized towards citizenship?
Second, I understand you apply for immigrado status after 4 1/2 years with FM2 (again, no more). I would think that even if you are decided to apply for citizenship, you would have to first apply for immigrado status. Since obtaining citizenship takes about two years, your immigrante visa is going to expire before that. What is your status then, if you had not changed to immigrado first?
By the way, my first year with FM2 expires on November 10. I went to INM in Tijuana a few weeks ago to ask about new requirements. I was told to come back no earlier than November 1st, as they believed they would have the new regulations implemented by then. They don't know what the new requirements are going to be yet. They also assured me that they would have enough time for document processing - that's less than ten days. I'm a little bit nervous and unsure about that.

Oct 11, 2011, 2:13 PM

Post #13 of 23 (2389 views)

Re: [viktoremski] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

victoremski, I don't think anyone knows yet just what the regulations will be once the new immigration law is in force. That said…

You haven't been allowed to apply for naturalization with 5 years residence on an FM3 (now no inmigrante) since, I believe, October of 2007. I got in on that deal just shortly before the regulations changed.

Since I did have to renew my FM3 during my wait period, you are probably correct in saying that to apply for naturalization at that 4 1/2 year point on an FM2 (now inmigrante) you would also have to simultaneously apply for inmigrado status in order to keep your visa in force.

I don't blame you for being a bit nervous about your inmigrante (FM2) renewal, but I'm quite certain that you are considered legal as long as you have begun the renewal process before the actual expiration date. I've known many, many folks who have had this experience (including myself), and INM has always assured them that they continued to be legally in México.

I do have my doubts about those regulations for the all new immigration law both being published AND being in effect by Nov. 1. Even if it really happens, the chance that the many INM offices would have all their employees trained to properly process applications, renewals, etc., by that time would be little to none, IMHO.

Oct 11, 2011, 3:13 PM

Post #14 of 23 (2376 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

Things change. I'm glad for it, and forums/threads like this bring the truth to the fore. The Mexican governments have made huge inroads towards the rights and treatment of its indigenous peoples. At one time there was definitely a charity going around Mexico, helping people register their certificates, and getting their kids in school. Maybe it was all a scam - there was definitely someone involved with Mexconnect though.

sparks

Oct 11, 2011, 3:15 PM

Post #15 of 23 (2375 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

Not always so simple.

We had a young girl that couldn't attend school because she had no birth certificate. She was born in the old Manzanillo General which had moved a few years earlier and misplaced many older records (at least hers). It may have been the moms responsibility to contact Registro Civil but she had attention deficit disorder (drugs).

After paying a local lawyer 3500 pesos we came up with a "best as can be remembered" birth certificate. She is now in 4th grade doing exceptionally well.

I don't think it's all that uncommon in Mexico to not have birth certs

Sparks Mexico - Sparks Costalegre

Oct 11, 2011, 3:23 PM

Post #16 of 23 (2365 views)

Re: [sparks] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

Thanks Sparks - I kind of thought it was you. It makes sense, you are truly a stand up guy.

Here is a charity from 2006 raising money to help kids register for school. They claim they could not get certificates because they had no permanent address.

http://www.familiesatthedump.org/

oladulce

Oct 11, 2011, 5:34 PM

Post #17 of 23 (2333 views)

Re: [sparks] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

A friend became a Mexican citizen a couple of months ago- she used an agent to assist her and traveled from Baja Sur to Mexico City a few times to complete the process. One thing I found interesting, she said that all US documents such as her passport etc had to be in her maiden name and she had to change everything that had been in her married name for years.

It seems like you could run in to some identification snafus during the processing of your citizenship docs. Our Mexican bank still asks to see our passports when we withdraw larger sums of $$ so I'd have to change my name on at least that bank account. And oh lordy, our 2 fideicomisos- it's already a nightmare to deal with the banks for our 2 fides. And the annual filing of 3520's etc for the IRS???

She said it was really no big deal to change her name and she doesn't plan to change it back to her married one and they live in Mexico full time so it'll be interesting to see if the dual identities presents any problems for her in the future.

Oct 11, 2011, 6:58 PM

Post #18 of 23 (2320 views)

Re: [oladulce] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

oladulce, Yes, I can believe that married foreign women must have a home country passport in their maiden name (and more than likely, a FM2 also), but as your friend said, that's no big deal. Not being a married foreign woman, though, I can't speak from experience on that particular point.

The main snafu that occurs (happened to me too) is that the solicitude asks for your apellido materno – mother's maiden family name – BUT that is NOT on your passport and can't be put there. I went ahead and put my my mom's maiden family name on my first try, only to discover that if it's not on your passport, they don't want to see it at all. That was one of the reasons I had to redo my first solicitude. My complete naturalized Mexican citizenship carta, shows no appelido materno at all, nor does my Mexican passport or my credential para votar from IFE. Folks who got naturalized a few years before me had to also show their foreign birth certificate (in addition to their foreign passport) and those folks DO have an apellido materno as part of their complete naturalized Mexican name, but that is no longer in the regulations.

What I don't understand is why she had to go to Mexico City. There is a state SRE office in every state capitol city that can completely handle all the necessary steps for naturalization. I never heard of anyone from anywhere (except DF, of course) who had to go to Mexico City even once to complete the process. It sounds to me as if her coyote – agent – was "padding" the process somewhat.

Oh, just FYI: checking something else today I discovered that the upfront naturalization fee when I submitted my solicitude was $3,205 MXN rather than the $2,000+ that I stated that I thought was the amount. There were NO additional fees at all, except the fee for my Mexican passport after the naturalization process was completed.

Not to worry about the fideicomisos, just cancel them! A Mexican citizen doesn't need to have a fideicomiso to own property in the restricted zone. The cancelling process with a notario was a bit pricey, but by not having to pay that annual fee, that amortizes out in just a couple or three years.

Nor is there any problem about "dual identities", since a naturalized citizen has the same identity on their Mexican passport as on their foreign passport. In México you use your Mexican ID solely, and in your home country use use that ID solely, so there is never any problem at all.

FYI, since it is not legal for a Mexican woman to have ANY legal name except her original, birth name, your friend couldn't "change back to her foreign married name" whether she wanted to or not, although she could definitely change back to her foreign married name on her foreign passport if she desired, but that might cause some identity confusion under certain circumstances.

careyeroslib

Oct 12, 2011, 7:25 AM

Post #19 of 23 (2254 views)

Re: [mazbook1] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

I´m confused, but that´s ok, I´ll figure it out when the time comes, which isn´t quite yet, unless thenew regs. shorten the process somehow

I can see why they would want female naturalized citizens to have the same format as other Mexican women, but, it seems a bit cumbersome that they would want women who have had years and years of FM3 and then FM2 documents in one name (their married surname only) would have to change both their FM2 (or equivalent) and their foreign passports back to the original format before applying for citizenship. Hmm. Anyway, guess it´s about time I at least applied for a more formal birth certificate (I just have a wallet sized card). Any married women who have been through the naturalization process have personal experience to share?

Anyway, very useful discussion all round. Thanks to all.

esperanza

Oct 12, 2011, 7:44 AM

Post #20 of 23 (2243 views)

Re: [careyeroslib] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

This business of a woman changing her name on documents is completely unnecessary. Any notario can prepare a document for her called aclaración de nombre. The woman then presents that document any time there is a question about her married name vs her maiden name (i.e., the name listed on her birth certificate); the document attests that she is legally known by both names.

http://www.mexicocooks.typepad.com

sandykayak

Oct 12, 2011, 9:25 AM

Post #21 of 23 (2211 views)

Re: [esperanza] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

Bless you for this info, esperanza.

I ended up having to do a legal name change in the US (to get my US citizenship) cos I'd been using a combination of both ex-husband's names (the kids were young when I remarried, so I just tagged on the new husband's last name).

I dread what could happen in Mexico since my British birth certificate has my maiden name and I haven't used that for 45 years!
Sandy Kramer
Miami, Fla & El Parque

careyeroslib

Oct 12, 2011, 10:18 AM

Post #22 of 23 (2199 views)

Re: [sandykayak] Why so little talk about becoming a citizen

Can't Post | Private Reply

Yes, thanks, Esperanza

Oct 13, 2011, 2:44 PM

Post #23 of 23 (2078 views)