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joaquinx


Sep 26, 2011, 2:19 PM

Post #26 of 72 (2676 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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Mexicans don't need wireless routers and they don't need or use much electricity.


Right, they use a pair of 303 cans linked with string and have gas powered computers.
_______
My desire to be well-informed is currently at odds with my desire to remain sane.


stevebrtx

Sep 26, 2011, 2:35 PM

Post #27 of 72 (2665 views)

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Re: [joaquinx] electric

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Well, I'll give you this, they all have cell phones. But I'd bet if I went next door where construction is going on and asked the 8 or 10 guys working there what their CFE bills are, they would be cheap by our standards because they don't have or "need" a lot of our toys.

And, that's ok, I'm willing to pay my share, if I drive 20 miles I pay for a gal of gas, if I drive 200, I pay for 10 gals, and when I go to the border I pay proportionately for what I use.

But to be held up as the poster boy for high usage, stripped and flailed every two months really isn't the way to build a national electric system.

You know, it's not rocket science, delivering juice to houses and business's is a fairly basic thing, let's say it's a "proven" technology with lots of references on how to do it right, on how to do it regular and how to do it cheap.


sioux4noff

Sep 26, 2011, 3:18 PM

Post #28 of 72 (2655 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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they don't have or "need" a lot of our toys.


They may want them, but can't afford them.
Same for air conditioing in the house, many would like it, but can't afford it, or the electric bills it would cause


stevebrtx

Sep 26, 2011, 3:30 PM

Post #29 of 72 (2649 views)

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Re: [sioux4noff] electric

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Very true, but the point is ultimately they don't "buy" and that seems to be the big deliminator between living Mexican and living gringo. There are times I'd love to have AC, in fact I actually have one in my bedroom and I covered it over with picture because I can't afford to use it. In TX I had two 4 ton heat pumps - here I have two fans.

A typical business model encourages growth, the CFE penalizes it, go figure.


johanson


Sep 26, 2011, 3:47 PM

Post #30 of 72 (2647 views)

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Re: [tonynico] electric

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I'm sorry I wasn't around much during the last several days, only a few hours on my computer here and there when sitting in an airport. I just returned from the far north.

I'm envious of your electrical rates Tony. Your rates are much lower than ours in the tariff level 1 area which is in the greater Guadalajara area. While, if I understood your posts correctly you are allowed an average or 400 KWH per month before DAC, we are allowed no more than a 250 KWH average before our rates go up (no more than 3000 KWH during the previous 12 month period).

Yet with only 250 KWH per month, there are quite a few frugal members of the community, be they from NOB or locals who are able to keep their usage rates out of DAC. One of the best tools is the Kill-A-Watt meter mentioned above, and doing searches for items that have phantom electrical loads, first on-line (google) and then with your kill-a-watt meter and finally when buying a replacement electrical appliance, light bulb, etc, by going green, you can do much to lower your usage.

For example it was time to upgrade satellite receivers, in the olden days even when off I've had satellite receivers that used up to 33 watts per hour. My new Shaw Direct 600 which only uses about 14 watts when on or off, represents a major drop in power usage
33 watts * 24 * 30 = 24 KWH
14 watts * 24 * 30 = 10 KWH

The same thing with CFLs (13 instead of 60 watts etc) there are so many ways you can decrease your power consumption.

I don't like how much I used to have to pay for electricity. I just know that there is so much you can do to decrease power consumption.

(PS, why the new receiver? Because it receives mpeg 4 signals, the new format to be used By Shaw Direct as it adds HD channels, in the future, and because it only costs $99 new, and because it is much smaller than the old 500 series receivers and has HDMI and and and :) )


morgaine7


Sep 26, 2011, 4:30 PM

Post #31 of 72 (2637 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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But to be held up as the poster boy for high usage, stripped and flailed every two months really isn't the way to build a national electric system.

So you're saying that the Mexican government should subsidize extravagant use of their energy resources? Because that's all the DAC really is, removal of the government subsidy when usage reaches a certain level.

Kate


stevebrtx

Sep 26, 2011, 5:29 PM

Post #32 of 72 (2621 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] electric

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Now, surely you're old enough that I don't have to teach you math and statistics and how to twist it and make it look like the end result you want to achieve. Government subsidy? - right, what's the criteria for that one? Maybe the first 3KWH are free? I call BS, there is no "subsidy" and God knows, not at nearly 40 cents per KWH.

As stated, I'm willing to pay for my usage, but not to be punished.

Let me tell you a little story that happened two years ago. A big storm felled a tree onto my front gate arch and took out the cement pole with street light (which had never worked since I lived here, I had bought one at Home Depot and installed it myself). So, the Rental office called CFE and asked to come out and disconnect the hot wire feed to the casita so the tree trimmer guys could cut the tree away. It took the CFE 7 days to get out here, by then the weight of the tree had cracked the arch and it had to be reconstructed - $1100USD thank you very much.

Then they loaded the broken pole and when I asked the jefe where the new pole was he said "no new pole" and at the same time another guy was stringing a wire across probably 75'+ to the casita and when he couldn't find a secure connection he wrapped it around a tree limb - I swear to God and I have pics. I said to the el jefe "you can't do that, not even in Mexico" - he smiled, shrugged and got in his truck and drove away. Later when I was in TX I bought, brought down and personally installed a secure mount for the line. And, you want me to cut them some slack? - surely you're kidding me.

I just told a friend about working for a company in Austin in the 90's, it was owned and headed by a MXN national, one of THE 60 families Ross Perot speaks about. He went to a board meeting and asked the board "do we have your confidence?" - one of the senior members leaned back and thought a moment and answered "results count" - we adopted that as our company slogan. My point being that the concepts of excellence, performance and "results" are not alien concepts in Mexico, I've seen it close up and personal. So, when I judge the CFE it's on results, and at this point all I see is poor performance, dirty power and confiscatory rates for people living in the 21st century - all of which makes me wonder where their revenues are being applied - if you get my drift.


morgaine7


Sep 26, 2011, 5:51 PM

Post #33 of 72 (2612 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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Now, surely you're old enough that I don't have to teach you math and statistics and how to twist it and make it look like the end result you want to achieve.

Yes, surely I am, and I agree, there's apparently little of value I can learn from you.

Kate


stevebrtx

Sep 26, 2011, 5:58 PM

Post #34 of 72 (2607 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] electric

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Well, I hold an EE degree, but that not withstanding, let's do two things here, first you give a try at explaining why, even at 40 cents per KWH, there needs to be any subsidy of any kind from anyone, when tens of thousands of entities worldwide apparently produce it for less. Then, if you can't give a rational explanation of that, you Email me your address etc and so I can forward my bills to you, apparently you have a greater appreciation, and love, of the CFE than I ever will, as I said, "RESULTS COUNT".


Marlene


Sep 26, 2011, 9:53 PM

Post #35 of 72 (2561 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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Well, I'll give you this, they all have cell phones. But I'd bet if I went next door where construction is going on and asked the 8 or 10 guys working there what their CFE bills are, they would be cheap by our standards because they don't have or "need" a lot of our toys.


The guys on the construction site likely don't have cars either, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of families with 2, 3 and 4 cars, all the "toys" you mention, children in expensive private schools, full-time house help, and of course hefty CFE bills that they don't blink an eye at.


(This post was edited by Marlene on Sep 26, 2011, 9:55 PM)


stevebrtx

Sep 27, 2011, 6:29 AM

Post #36 of 72 (2530 views)

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Re: [Marlene] electric

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I'd be surprised, over the past 4 years when I've talked with Mexicans and told them what I was paying their eyes get big. I think the casita is something like 17 cents per KWH which is basic rate. There is no way the CFE would ever tell you the truth, but I'd bet they are making money at that rate and the rest is all gravy.


YucaLandia


Sep 27, 2011, 6:59 AM

Post #37 of 72 (2523 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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Well, I hold an EE degree, but that not withstanding, let's do two things here, first you give a try at explaining why, even at 40 cents per KWH, there needs to be any subsidy of any kind from anyone, when tens of thousands of entities worldwide apparently produce it for less. Then, if you can't give a rational explanation of that, you Email me your address etc and so I can forward my bills to you, apparently you have a greater appreciation, and love, of the CFE than I ever will, as I said, "RESULTS COUNT".


Steve,
Morgaine's point about Mex. govt. subsidies for residential users does not fit your quote of 40 cents per kW-hr, because your 40 cent rate does not fit what most Mexicans pay.

The current Basico rate is 4.86 cents per kWhr, vs your 40 cent report. (Maybe you mis-read the scientific notation on your calculator?) If you use a typical Mexican amount of electricity, the government then reduces that basic rate by a 78% subsidy to just 1.07 cents per kWhr - which is what we pay for most of our electricity.

The real subsidized rate of 1.07 cents per kWhr is 37X lower that your estimate of 40 cents.

Some of our power is billed at the Intermedio rate of 7.29 cents per kWhr, but that is also given the 78% subsidy which reduces the actual amount we pay to 1.60 cents per kWhr. We've lived here 5 years paying these rates, and have never approached the DAC category where the homeowner loses the subsidies.

Without seeing your power bills, I would guess that you are a heavy power user, and you are in the DAC rate category, which means you never get to see the 76% - 78% subsidy deduction on your bi-monthly bills, and it means that you pay additional surcharges that a relatively small percentage of Mexicans pay.
steve
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E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


YucaLandia


Sep 27, 2011, 7:21 AM

Post #38 of 72 (2509 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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Steve,
You commented that " tens of thousands of entities worldwide apparently produce it for less " and " results count ", but official numbers don't support the claims. A recent survey of 37 countries in the Americas, Europe, & Asia (not including Mexico) reported the lowest rate of 3.05 cents per kWhr for Ukraine, roughly 3X higher than Mexico's lowest subsidized 1.07 cents per kWhr rate. Denmark comes in next to last at 42.9 and Tonga at 45.7 cents per kWhr. The typical price for most of the countries was between 15 cents - 25 cents per kWhr.

If we calculate the average of the actual rates that most Mexicans pay, you get an average subsidized rate of 1.34 cents per kWhr, which is still 2.3X lower than the cheapest rate reported for 37 countries.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Sep 27, 2011, 7:59 AM)


stevebrtx

Sep 27, 2011, 8:06 AM

Post #39 of 72 (2483 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] electric

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I looked closer at the bills, it's actually worse than I thought. The casita shows cost of production at $3.475p/KWH. If that is actually a true number, then the CFE is truly one of the least efficient producers on planet earth. And then they get a subsidy (see "bill to") I know enough accountants that can make anything fit the bottom line, or maybe "subsidy" has a different meaning in Spanish? - at any rate, that's pathetic and then you load 16% IVA on top of that and it's not a pretty scene. I'd bet a huge chunk of Denmark is tax to support their welfare system.

Yes, by CFE standards I'm a heavy user, 1100KWH in 2 months, in TX I used anywhere from 1,500 to 2,500 per month on the heavy months and I was not a "heavy" user. They were able to be nicely profitable at $.10/KWH or in MXN terms today about $1.33p, that's a vast difference.


morgaine7


Sep 27, 2011, 8:26 AM

Post #40 of 72 (2472 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] electric

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If we calculate the average of the actual rates that most Mexicans pay, you get an average subsidized rate of 1.34 cents per kWhr, which is still 2.3X lower than the cheapest rate reported for 37 countries.

I think Stevebrtx is saying that CFE's stated production cost is 40 cents (subsidized rate paid plus subsidy, which for me works out to about the same as the DAC rate). His point seems to be that they should be able to produce electric power less expensively.

As for "results", my July/August bill was 388 pesos for 517 kWh. The bill included a notice that I qualify for government support if I wish to upgrade my fridge. So I'm fine with that and don't feel the need to challenge CFE's production costs or rate structures. My "tarifa" is 1D, so I could more than triple my usage and still stay well below the DAC cutoff of 1,000 kWh /mo average. That's for a single person in a small house with no AC, but with five large ceiling fans, a floor fan, a swimming pool and most of the usual appliances and gadgets except TV and home theatre.

I do sympathize with folks in similar climates who are billed at 1B. Baja California Sur, while quite hot, is influenced by the desert and stays relatively dry during most of the year compared to other coastal areas. That's one of the main reasons I chose to move here, because I don't handle humidity well but also don't like living in AC.

Kate


johanson


Sep 27, 2011, 9:17 AM

Post #41 of 72 (2449 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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Me July, lakeside, at Tariff 1 $6.3 US cents per KWH Me July, lakeside, at DAC Monthly connection fee $6.51 plus almost 31 US cents per KWH Shown below are the boring facts. My actual July rates lakeside, for either DAC or tariff 1. dependent upon my usage which was an abnormally low 94 KWH (yes I have PV solar panels) Exchange rate of 13.3 to 1 Here are the July. rates where the amounts apply to the per month usage from http://www.cfe.gob.mx/.../Conocetutarifa.aspx o
2.1 Cargos por energía consumida, para consumos hasta 140 (ciento cuarenta) kilowatts-hora. Consumo básico $ 0.723 por cada uno de los primeros 75 (setenta y cinco) kilowatts-hora. Consumo intermedio $ 0.873 por cada kilowatt-hora adicional a los anteriores.
2.2 Cargos por energía consumida, para consumos mayores a 140 (ciento cuarenta) kilowatts-hora. Consumo básico $ 0.723 por cada uno de los primeros 75 (setenta y cinco) kilowatts-hora. Consumo intermedio $ 1.209 por cada uno de los siguientes 50 (cincuenta) kilowatts-hora. Consumo excedente $ 2.553 por cada kilowatt-hora adicional a los anteriores. Because I used less than 75 KWH per month my KWH rate was 0.723 + 16% IVA divided by 13.3(exchange rate) = or 6.34 cents per KWH. Now because I also receive a government subsidy my per KWH rate is about 6.3 cents per KWH. Which included a government subsidy of more than 80% However were I in the DAC because my average consumption was greater than 3000 KWH during the previous 12 months. Then I would be charged a monthly connection fee of $6.51 US plus almost 31 cents per KWH


stevebrtx

Sep 27, 2011, 9:22 AM

Post #42 of 72 (2444 views)

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Re: [morgaine7] electric

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The cost of production is $3.475p/KWH, add 16% IVA and you get $4.031p/KWH. Now, I'll give you that I'm calculating at 10:1 so we're currently getting a bit of a break, but if it drops below 10:1, and it has, there will be no sympathy.

As to your usage, you're getting a deal, if I had a meter like yours I'd keep it under lock and key with an alarm attached, I don't believe it's correct, but that's your gift. And I don't know what 1D is? I'm in DAC and 01 for the casita. That's doesn't seem correct, you can't triple the usage to 1500 for a 2 month billing and stay below DAC, I'm "only" at 1100 per billing and in DAC.

Now, I'll be the first to recognize all this angst is wasted and an exercise in futility, nothing is going to change, between the Gov and CFE, one hand is obviously washing the other and we're not invited. I might even concede to somewhat higher prices if the product was worthy - but it's not. In this house I've gone through 4 regulators, stereo repair, fried answering machine, 1 modem, 3 routers, 1 telephone blocker, 1 clock radio, 1 Vonage adapter and that's in 4 years. Add losing the freezer recently, untold hours of rebuilding data bases on the weather station and as previously mentioned, the fiasco with the casita incoming power and forgive me if somehow I don't feel the warm and fuzzies when it comes to the CFE.

I found when I managed people that you usually get what you expect, when you accept inefficiency and mediocrity that's generally what you'll get. In my sales career I found people will pay for excellence a lot sooner than they'll pay for junk, but then silly me, we're talking about Mexico and the CFE aren't we?


Bennie García

Sep 27, 2011, 11:06 AM

Post #43 of 72 (2415 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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The cost of production is $3.475p/KWH, add 16% IVA and you get $4.031p/KWH. Now, I'll give you that I'm calculating at 10:1 so we're currently getting a bit of a break, but if it drops below 10:1, and it has, there will be no sympathy.


When the peso was at 10 to 1 was the price per kwh the same as it is today? Didn't think so. Now try being a little less disingenuous and knock the 16% IVA off the cost of production and try for a true exchange rate.

Now let's look at it in a more honest manner. Using your figure of 3.475 kwh and dividing that by today's exchange rate, the cost is 0.257usd kwh. Compare that to your calculation of 0.40usd kwh. Now we're looking at a substantial difference. Like nearly 40%.

Weren't you offering math classes in a previous post?


(This post was edited by Bennie García on Sep 27, 2011, 11:38 AM)


morgaine7


Sep 27, 2011, 11:07 AM

Post #44 of 72 (2414 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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My usage and bills are in line with those of my friends and neighbors, give or take size of home, number of people in the household, and use of AC.

1D is the normal CFE "tarifa" for my location, just as 01 apparently is for yours, based on your casita. The two-month bill I cited was for 350 kWh at "Básico" (0.643 pesos /kWh) and 167 at "Intermedio (0.744 pesos /kWh). There is also a higher "Excedente" category above Intermedio, but my usage didn't reach that level. Básico and Intermedio are subsidized rates (not sure about Excedente). My 388 peso bill shows cost of production as 2,087.09 pesos, 1,737 being subsidized by the government. So yes, it's a deal, but only because my usage is low.

These subsidized rate categories probably don't show on your bill, because the subsidies disappear entirely if you're on the DAC "tarifa".

As others have noted, one's normal "tarifa", along with its rates and quotas, is set according to average summer temperature for the region. On 1D, I can average up to 1,000 kWh /month before getting billed at the non-subsidized DAC "tarifa". For July/August, my average was 258.5 kWh, so yes, I could triple it and still avoid the DAC. Folks on 1B, like Tonynico in Quintana Roo and Sioux4noff in Nayarit, get bumped into the DAC with an average of 400 kWh /month. Folks on 1F don't get into the DAC unless their average usage reaches 2,500 kWh /month, as Sioux4noff mentioned.

So folks in hotter summer climates can use more power at subsidized rates. What's being questioned in this thread is that some regions seem hotter than their assigned "tarifa" indicates, one reason being that the classifications don't account for high humidity.

Kate


YucaLandia


Sep 27, 2011, 11:48 AM

Post #45 of 72 (2395 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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Steve,
I think I just got the point you were making: CFE's advertised "production cost" seems very high, while I was focusing on the actual price that I and others pay for residential electricity service.

Actual money spent vs. reported budget: This comparison seems very similar to the shell games and bait & switch games that US politicians play with budget cuts. The US Congress, Boehner, Reed, Pelosi, and the President trumpeted over $4 billion in budget cuts (on paper) last year, but the actual reductions in real spending were just $380 million: a 10X misrepresentation.

CFE clearly advertises a "production cost" that is much higher than what residential users pay.
Do the DAC and commercial customers make up the difference? Are Pemex oil revenues used to make up the difference?

I don't know, but I do appreciate paying the lowest residential prices for electricity out of the 38 countries cited above.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com


stevebrtx

Sep 27, 2011, 12:04 PM

Post #46 of 72 (2386 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] electric

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You know darn well it's a back room deal, the Gov and CFE get together over tequila and Gov says "what's your production cost" wink wink, nod nod and CFE says $3.45p per KWH, so the Gov says ok, we'll give you a "subsidy" so it looks good for the poor folks and you can gouge the rest, so send us the bill, they shake hands, money and tequila flow both ways and like any government/monopoly sticky fingers in the middle pull out "their share".

You're lucky as is the lady, my pumps use 3KWH a day, more when my gardener is watering, so that's 180 per cycle, then my PC desk uses about another 2 per day, that's 120 per cycle, so far all I've done is run the weather station and taken a shower, no lights, no fans, no frig, no radios, no TV, no security lighting, no microwave nada and I'm already at 300KWH per cycle. And yes, I only have another 276 days, 5 hours before I'm out of this house and if there is any way I can rent a decent place without a pool that will be a start.

Pete has the advantage, he owns his house and has the money to install a CFE "bypass" - I have neither, so this is the end of the discussion for me, I need to go out and find something I can actually change or fix, it's good for my soul.


DavidHF

Sep 27, 2011, 12:26 PM

Post #47 of 72 (2376 views)

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Re: [stevebrtx] electric

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For those that don't live in the Chapala area; our DAC rate commences at 500Kwhrs/2 month or 3000Kwhr/yr. and we have no summer rate/winter rate. Once you're in DAC you pay ~31 US cents/Kwhr. plus a monthly "connection fee" of about 75 pesos per meter.


YucaLandia


Sep 27, 2011, 1:25 PM

Post #48 of 72 (2354 views)

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Last time I researched it a couple of months ago, if you're in the DAC rate, you're in elite company, I believe only 3 other countries in the entire world have higher rates, so guess CFE isn't satisfied with being in 4th place.



In Reply To
...the Gov says ok, we'll give you a "subsidy" so it looks good for the poor folks and you can gouge the rest, so send us the bill, they shake hands, money and tequila flow both ways and like any government/monopoly sticky fingers in the middle pull out "their share".



In Reply To
The casita shows cost of production at $3.475p/KWH.


I'm still trying to get my mind around all of this.
If we convert Steve's quoted $3.475pesos per kWhr to US dollars, it comes out to 25.9 cents per kWhr. When compared to the 37 other countries cited above, Mexico's production price comes in below:
Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, and Tonga.

Are we expected to believe that Mexico has higher electricity prices than all but 3 countries in the world, while Mexico's actual residential rates are the lowest out of 38 countries cited, and Mexico's production costs and high consumption DAC rates are below 5 of the most advanced countries in the industrialized world?

Are we also expected to believe that Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Italy and the Netherlands utilities are all also controlled by corrupt people who make back-room deals over shots of alcohol, to gouge their citizens, as Mexico is accused?

CFE certainly has customer service issues, and I too have had to replace electronics when my US-made UPSs failed with CFE power problems, but I am having trouble finding evidence to support the claims of corruption and over-pricing. Mexico does not have cheap natural gas or cheap coal to produce electricity like many countries. Mexico also does not have refining capacity to convert her crude oil into the lighter products that are used in oil-fired power plants. Mexico must send her crude to the US for refining, and then transport the refined products back to run her power plants, making Mexico an importer of refined petroleum products, like Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Italy, and the Netherlands.

Does anyone here know CFE's commercial electricity rates compared to other countries' commercial rates? This could explain how Mexican residential rates are some of the lowest in the world.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

(This post was edited by YucaLandia on Sep 27, 2011, 1:33 PM)


stevebrtx

Sep 27, 2011, 1:50 PM

Post #49 of 72 (2334 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] electric

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Steve, you can twist and turn it anyway you want, but when I shell our $4,310 pesos for 1100KWH it's darn high. And to tout your subsidized rate as "the rate in MX" is a bit disingenuous. All that means is the MXN Gov is using money to "overpay" (my belief) the CFE to give an artificially low price to some, while as noted, other areas are favored due to climate considerations which is also totally subjective and obviously is not "production cost" based.

We all know what happens when governments get into the business of manipulating rates etc. It also means that money is not being used for other infrastructure items etc.


Bennie García

Sep 27, 2011, 2:23 PM

Post #50 of 72 (2323 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] electric

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Mexico also does not have refining capacity to convert her crude oil into the lighter products that are used in oil-fired power plants. Mexico must send her crude to the US for refining, and then transport the refined products back to run her power plants, making Mexico an importer of refined petroleum products, like Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Italy, and the Netherlands


For the sake of accuracy, the oil used to fire steam generators in large power plants is from, forgive me the pun, the bottom of the barrel. The lowest grade oil. What is leftover after the good clean stuff has been refined out of the crude. A residual product. Think tar. The important factor is the amount of BTUs. But they also burn much dirtier.
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