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Brian

Sep 24, 2011, 6:55 AM

Post #1 of 19 (11742 views)

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Never before

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Must things get worse before normalcy returns? Or is this the new normal?

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/...efores-hit-a-new-low

(This post was edited by Rolly on Sep 24, 2011, 7:10 AM)

Altahabana

Sep 24, 2011, 8:08 AM

Post #2 of 19 (11687 views)

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Re: [Brian] Never before

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The violence has been escalating steadily over the past 2 1/2 to 3 years and is becoming increasingly public and more barbaric. That should be apparent to anyone with a single lick of objectivity. Certainly to anyone who lives here and keeps even minimally abreast of current events through the national and local media and interacts with their local community.

In my opinion in many if not most of the affected areas the current situation is attributable to the aggressiveness of the Zetas as they consolidate and attempt to expand. This provokes both the government and other cartels into aggressive countermeasures. Until someone breaks the Zetas I don't see things getting much better.

(This post was edited by Altahabana on Sep 24, 2011, 10:16 AM)

richmx2

Sep 24, 2011, 3:53 PM

Post #3 of 19 (11572 views)

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Re: [Brian] Never before

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This is somewhat unprecedented here (at least in the era of 24-7 media and instant messaging), but I am not sure what we're going through is all that different from what Colombia endured when a U.S. backed "drug war" was coupled with an executive branch that was pushing a "hard hand" as a way of conferring legitimacy on itself. That Bogata is "safe" today was a result of massive human rights abuses, including the temptation by the military to goose their "kill numbers" with innocents... lots of them it appears. And, to crack down on all dissent under the rubric of controlling "disorder".

I'm more bothered by the rush to militarization and overt attempts by the United States to justify intervention (hinted at here, and seen in the increasing use of words like "terrorism" in media coverage of various gangster activities), and to turn judicial and legal reforms into a call to weaken the independence of the judiciary, not to mention imposing, as in parts of the United States and Britain, a "surveillance society" in a country which has always prized personal liberty and privacy.

Of course I'm bothered by the violence, but is it worse than that endured by, say, Sicily as the Mafia was being brought under control (if you remember, the Mafia had no compunction about blowing up entire apartment blocks to "send a signal" by killing one person's relative), or Brazil (where local business owners were hiring gangsters to kill petty thieves, something many suspect is also happening here)?

Recently there was mention of a political-religious insurgency on the Malaysian-Thai border, which features head chopping not of gang rivals, but of more or less random victims who violate one or the other side's unwritten rules. That in a tourist area, where foreign tourists are left alone. As spectacle, it's being under-reported although as a challenge to the state, it is certainly different than what is going on here. Is there violence? Yes, and unacceptable levels of it. Does it justify a turn to a militarized state? No.

I only bring that up because it has to be noted that gangsterism is the problem here, not political insurgency (although perhaps the roots of the gangsterism lie in bad economic -- i.e. political -- decisions) but something that can still be resolved without screaming the sky is falling, and there's a call for "solutions" that are worse than the problem.

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Bennie García

Sep 24, 2011, 6:12 PM

Post #4 of 19 (11536 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Never before

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I have had many conversations this week with Mexican friends, family and others and there is a general feeling now that things are quickly falling completely apart.

Last week the small retail business, and all of the customers present at the time, of a dear friend of my wife was robbed at gunpoint. An in-law of my BIL, on the way back from Texas, was shaken down by a PFP highway patrol for 5000 pesos to "ensure" his safety.

One of my sons best friends was abducted this past week and his fate remains unknown. He had actually escaped on foot when the attackers riddled his vehicle with rounds from an AK47 and found refuge in a private home. Via cell phone he contacted both his father and his employer and was told help was on the way. When the municipal police showed up he assumed he was safe only to be turned over to his assailants by the police themselves. That is the kind of power these groups wield.

(This post was edited by DavidMcL on Sep 24, 2011, 8:48 PM)

YucaLandia

Sep 24, 2011, 7:14 PM

Post #5 of 19 (11523 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Never before

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Bennie,
Please, read Richmx2's post again. He is not planning on bailing on Mexico, he is pointing towards the real problems, which point to answers that have worked.

Read Richmx2's post to see that he does care - a lot - about what happens here. Just because Richmx2 describes a bigger picture for people to better understand the context of what is happening, does not mean he is wrong nor does it meant that he does not realize the losses or the risks. Just because he describes things differently than you does not mean he should leave Mexico or that he is planning to leave.

Richmx2's analogy with Italy's problem 10 years ago with the Mafia is a good one. The Italian mafia controlled about $260 billion USD a year of the Italian economy in 2000, making them about 7X larger than the Mexican cartels, and they had cash reserves of about $1.6 trillion USD. They were were more heavily embedded and entrenched in Italian business than the Mexican cartels, controlling about 20% of Italian businesses, and sadly the numbers of deaths of innocent civilians judges, prosecutors, police spiraled upward for a over a decade before the Italian public, government, businesses, and the Italian people said: enough.

Bennie, you speak with great passion about your personal connections to horrible blood and gore, but you are not seeing that people agree with your view that the internal war has gone way too far. You are identifying people here on mexconnect as enemies who basically agree with your view that things are very bad and need to change.

Bennie, it would be much more effective to offer solutions and to work with others toward solutions, rather than trying to manufacture verbal battles online and then imagine enemies in people, where there are none.

There is no competition over who's suffered the most, or who has lost the most, or who cares the most.

I really believe that everyone on Mexconnect agrees that the problems with the cartels are out of control, and the situation is unacceptable.

There are no winners in arguing about who cares the most; no winners in arguing about who can and can't leave Mexico; no winners in arguing about who knows the most people affected by the violence; and no winners in some imagined competition over who is the "real thing" when it comes to knowing about the violence.

Identify the problems, look for answers that work, and work to make things better.
steve
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E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

Bennie García

Sep 24, 2011, 7:16 PM

Post #6 of 19 (11518 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Never before

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You completely misunderstood my last paragraph. Actually you misunderstood all of it.

My point was that in reality he has no stake in the matter, he is a gringo and if things reach a point where he finds living here intolerable, he has the luxury of leaving. And that alone makes his point of view very subjective.

(This post was edited by Bennie García on Sep 24, 2011, 7:25 PM)

YucaLandia

Sep 24, 2011, 9:01 PM

Post #7 of 19 (11467 views)

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Re: [Brian] Never before

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In Reply To

Must things get worse before normalcy returns? Or is this the new normal?

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/...efores-hit-a-new-low

Brian,
Based on the amount of $50 billion or so of drug money flowing from the US every year (big incentives for keeping Mexican drug cartels in business), and looking at how long it took for the cycles to play out in Italy, this really may be the new normal.

It could continue until the Mexican people stand up en mass and say: basta.
steve
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Read-on MacDuff
E-visit at http://yucalandia.com

dongringo_catemaco

Sep 25, 2011, 4:56 AM

Post #8 of 19 (11414 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Never before

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Benny - apparently the editors got to you, thus leaving the next post partially dangling.

Of course most gringo posts are subjective, but no more than Mexican posts. Please remember, almost all gringos are here by choice, not because they have to be. That alone should vouch for their good intentions.

Of course they can leave, if they want to. And so can you if you have the wherewithalls, which millions of other Mexicans have already applied.
Visit Catemaco News

Altahabana

Sep 25, 2011, 5:24 AM

Post #9 of 19 (11410 views)

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Re: [YucaLandia] Never before

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Based on the amount of $50 billion or so of drug money flowing from the US every year (big incentives for keeping Mexican drug cartels in business) . . . . this really may be the new normal.

The Attorney General of the Republic believes there may be other factors accounting for the upsurge in violence.

"El narcomenudeo es el verdadero motor generador de la violencia en el país." Maricela Morales Ibanez

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion/189223.html

The cartels of course generate their large profits from sales in the US and other international markets, but according to Ms. Morales it is the battle for control of the local, domestic markets (i.e. narcomenudeos) that is the principal cause of the increasing violence. She was specifically refering to the incident in Veracruz, which ironically was the site of the national conference of prosecutors where she made her comments.

Bennie García

Sep 25, 2011, 5:45 AM

Post #10 of 19 (11405 views)

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Re: [dongringo_catemaco] Never before

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Have you ever heard of a tu quoque argument?

"Almost all gringos are here by choice"?

Which ones aren't? The ones in jail I suppose. And just because they are here by choice doesn't mean they are here for their love of Mexico. To many it is simply a cheaper and warmer place to spend their retirement years.

Bennie García

Sep 25, 2011, 6:24 AM

Post #11 of 19 (11389 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Never before

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According to this site it is actually far worse here.

"Experts point out the fact since the 1990s mob-related murders has steadily cooled off. Example: Authorities say when a comparison is made between the 121 murders in 2006; 143 in 2005, 212 in 2004---with the 340 mob connected murders in 1992, the year Sicily’s Costa Nostra executed a reign of terror by killing political officials and if the numbers are correct the murder rate shows a considerable decline...".

http://gangstersinc.ning.com/...al-report-mobmurders

How about showing where you got your information?

arbon

Sep 25, 2011, 12:40 PM

Post #12 of 19 (11309 views)

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Re: [Altahabana] Never before

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Altahabana, Is this true?

"In the drug-violence-wracked northern border state of Tamaulipas, state officers receive on average about 3,618 pesos, or $300 per month."

Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/...l.html#ixzz1YzhsQ4PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(This post was edited by Rolly on Sep 25, 2011, 12:51 PM)

richmx2

Sep 25, 2011, 2:16 PM

Post #13 of 19 (11276 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Never before

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There obviously should have been a question mark at the end of the sentence of mine you quoted. What is the relative population of Italy (or just Sicily) compared to Mexico, and what parameters would one use to measuring the social and economic damage caused by the Mafia (and other criminal gangs) in Italy compared to that done in Mexico? The Mafia didn't become ingrained in Sicilian culture overnight, and rooting it out wasn't just a military/police operation.

As it is, I raised questions about the tenor of the discussion of violence here in Mexico, and am skeptical of claims that the violence now is somehow worse than that of previous times. That other states have faced similar problems, and taken different solutions with different outcomes is certainly something worth discussing.

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Bennie García

Sep 25, 2011, 3:01 PM

Post #14 of 19 (11261 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Never before

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You either can't or don't want to back up any of your claims from your previous post. If you are going to make wild claims then you really should have solid evidence to support them.

Now if you don't believe the violence is worse than in times past, why don't you support your theory with concrete proof?

norteño

Sep 25, 2011, 3:44 PM

Post #15 of 19 (11242 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Never before

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In Reply To

Of course I'm bothered by the violence, but is it worse than that endured by, say, Sicily as the Mafia was being brought under control (if you remember, the Mafia had no compunction about blowing up entire apartment blocks to "send a signal" by killing one person's relative), or Brazil (where local business owners were hiring gangsters to kill petty thieves, something many suspect is also happening here)?

Why don't you compare the 340 Mafia murders in all of Italy during the worst year, 1992, with the more than 3,000 murders just in the city of Juárez last year, and see if that suggests the answer to your question?

whynotwrite

Sep 25, 2011, 5:10 PM

Post #16 of 19 (11222 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Never before

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it seems anything bad that could happen has happend to people you know. Carjackings, kidnapping, etc.. That is just your bad carma. I have lived in Mexico 10 years, more or less, and can count on one hand how many times I have been concerned with the whole drug war. The milatary has been in my town a handful of times chasing bad guys...a few shootings if you are awake to hear them, most sleep through the whole thing. Big deal, so what? Can´t take a bit of pressure, don´t try for a job in any big city in the US. I would guess less than 1/10 of 1 % of the deaths are innocent people. Get over it.

Bennie García

Sep 25, 2011, 5:29 PM

Post #17 of 19 (11212 views)

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Re: [whynotwrite] Never before

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Why would my karma have anything to do with those poor people's misfortune, numbskull? Like I give a shit what you think anyway.I have lived here for just shy of 40 years. I know lots of people. Shit happens. If it hasn't happened to you or anyone you know, then count your blessings.

(This post was edited by Bennie García on Sep 25, 2011, 5:34 PM)

richmx2

Sep 25, 2011, 6:31 PM

Post #18 of 19 (11183 views)

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Re: [Bennie García] Never before

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Start with the 80,000 to 90,000 killed during the Cristero insurgency of 1926-29 (when Mexico's population was much smaller, about 15 million), which when you come down to it, was pretty much a result of escalating violence that began with an executive decision to use force against widely tolerated, though technically illegal, activity. And one in which private citizens of the United States were very much involved in financing and arming those engaged in illegal activities.

http://mexfiles.net
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Bennie García

Sep 25, 2011, 7:18 PM

Post #19 of 19 (11169 views)

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Re: [richmx2] Never before

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Maybe we should start with the conquest of Tenochtitlán? Talk about foreign intervention and a blood bath!. A few hundred thousand wound up in Omeyacan in a matter of months.